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T8…. to me worship takes a different meaning then when it comming from you yourself. The ones who said The Lamb was worthy to recieve praise, glory, honor were not saying they were giving him it, they were saying he was worthy to recive it and obviously they meant from God he would recieve it. But no where does it mention worship he would recieve from God.
when the deciples worshiped him they thought he performed the mericle they were not yet converted but were simply carnal human beings like every one else was. When the woman said blessed are the Papes you sucked she was trying to worship him and what was his answer. We are to worshiped the one and only God who was who Jesus worshiped, no where are we told to worship him by God or anyone else. WE are to honor, who God said to honor, Praise what God said to praise , Glorify is somthing only God can do we can't, and worship who God said to worship. I have never seen where God said to worship Jesus. I believe God reserves worship to Himself. Just my opinion….t8…..gene
t8….
worship is what people do to A God, not a fellow Brother and Joint heir who is part of their famly. Trinitarians worship Jesus that part of their deification of Him. We are told not to bow down and worship no on except our God, the first second, and thirid comamdments show this. If God wanted us to worship Jesus He would have certanly said so. Jesus said we are to Honor the son even as we honor the Father but no where do i see him say worship him. I will honor Jesus but not worship him, i reserve that for the Father only because he is my God and NO other.I haven't got time to look it up now, but I think that worship can be translated as honour. Can someone confirm?
Stephen was kneeling and praying directly to Jesus. There is no evidence that he was praying to Jesus in the Fathers name, or that he was praying to the Father in Jesus' name.
Stephen was kneeling in prayer to Jesus.
Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.Look again!
From the Literal Translation Bible. (LITV)
Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, invoking and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. .
Act 7:60 And placing the knees, he cried out with a loud voice, Lord, do not make stand this sin to them. And having said this, he fell asleep.See also from the YLT (1898 Young's Literal Translation)
Act 7:59 and they were stoning Stephen, calling and saying, `Lord Jesus, receive my spirit;'
Act 7:60 and having bowed the knees, he cried with a loud voice, `Lord, mayest thou not lay to them this sin;' and this having said, he fell asleep.
Stephen was kneeling and praying directly to Jesus. Stephen was worshiping Jesus.
Rev 19:10 tells us to worship only God:
Jesus is Yahweh God. WORSHIP HIM
An as usual, CB wins the “I don't take a moment to look up the Greek word for prayer” award. Or worship for that matter. Neither of those words were used in Acts 7:59-60.
Two words were used predominantly for “pray” in the NT: “proseuchomai” and “palal”. The word used for “called upon” in Acts 7:59 was “epikaleō” which was never translated as “pray” or “prayer”.
The various words for “worship” or “worshiped” were “proskuneo”, and “sebō”. The “worship” in Rev 19:10 was “proskuneo”. Neither of these Greek words are found in Acts 7:59-30.
And while you will see “proskuneo” used in relation to Yeshua, it is also used for idols, Satan, and demons, as well as God.
Gene;
Perhaps we can see more clearly regarding glorifying and worshipping Christ in Hebrews. I propose to you that you are worshipping Christ and may not be aware of it.
First, When the Father brought his first begotten into the world what did he say in Hebrews 1:8? Let all the angels worship him. So Michael and Gabriel the angels and all the other angels were commanded by the Father to worship Christ. In doing so, was God not glorifying Christ from the day of his birth. There are certain things that God wants us to do based upon the pattern that he has given to us in his word. For example, no where in the new testament do we see that Jesus stated to gather on the first day of the week, but we see that Christ was raised from the dead on the first day of the week. We also see he appeared again to them while they were locked in a room privately on the first day of the week and the Day of Pentecost on the first day of the week. We can't be dogmatic about what day of the week to worship, but the first day of the week is the pattern in the word of God.
A good question to ask might be, what is worship? How was it displayed in the bible? In nearly every case we see the person seeking Christ recognizing that he was the Son of God and that in him was the remedy for their needs. They addressed the Son of God as Lord. Obviously, they realized he wasn't the Almighty but was the Son of the Almighty. Hence, the universal title in scripture the Son of God.
I propose to you that unless you worship Christ you may be missing the significance of the work of God in Christ. The Father hath exalted him as Lord of heaven and earth. He has made him God of heaven and earth. This shows a clear intent that God intended us to worship Christ as well as himself.
We see a pattern in the new testament of Christ being worshipped. In Mathew 2:11 the wise men worhsipped Christ. In Mathew 8:2 the leper worshipped Christ. In Mathew 9:18 a certain ruler worshipped Christ. In Mathew 14:33 the disciples in the ship. In Mathew 15:25 a woman worhsipped Christ. In Mark 5:6 the demoniac worshipped Christ before being delivered. In John 9, the blind man worshipped Christ after being healed.
Mr. Steve …..> first let me say I have never seen in the bible where it say's Jesus rose on the first day of the week. I have seen where Mary went to the tomb early in the morning and the tomb was already empty, but no where does it say He rose on sunday. I believe Jesus proberly rose at about 3:oo-6:oo On Saturday because the passover on that year was on a thursday, but the Lamb was killed before it started which was wednsday and eaten at the beginning of Thursday at sundown wednsday and the next day was Friday and it was the first day of unleven bread another High Holy day,and the next day was saturday another Holy Day. Thats why Mary and the deciples did not go to the greave until early sunday before the sun rose, and found the tomb all ready empty. Add it up and it will come out to three full days and nights.
as far a worship goes I reserve that for the Father alone. And I know where it say they should bow to Jesus and confes him as Lord, TO the glory of God. But if you look it up in a Greek translation you will see the word should is mistranslated, it should read Can or May,or Might, but not should or shall as some translations have it. It's stated as if God say's we can (BUT) only to the Glory of God. Not to the Glory of Jesus. God qulifies how it is permissible to Him.
In Rev there are several places where Jesus is present and worship is being offered but not to Him, but to God only even though He is present, why is that?< I believe it because Jesus is also worshiping the Father with them He is certainly present.
As i said eailer I will certinly Honor and obey Jesus but it will always be to the Glory of Our Father. Because my brother Jesus as well as US are all the work of the Father, we are selves are called the sons Of God, and joint heirs with Christ, Jesus was never elevated to the Position of God, there is only one true God , And I will worship Him with Jesus my Brother. If the Father commands me to I will infact if He commanded me to worship you i would, But unless the Father tell me to i won't.
Just the way i see it………geneGene;
Do you see any significance at all in the statement by the Father, let all the angels of God worship him? Christ was born to be worshipped? He is the Son of God. The Father has glorified him and set him at his own right hand. The Father said that all men should honor the Son even as they honor the Father. That means to the same degree. How can you give honor to the Father by refusing to worship his Son whom he has committed all judgment and power? Hebrews says that Christ has purchased us with his own blood. If you follow Christ how can you not worship him? Paul said he was a bond servant to Jesus Christ. We are owned by Christ. The Father has made him Lord and Christ. Essentially, the new testament is the public deification of Christ in his blood. The Lord hath sworn and will not repent thou art a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek, without beginning or end. That's eternality by divine decree.
Mr. steve….> Honor is one thing and worship is another, and it was Jesus who said we should honor the son as we honor the Father, Not the Father as i recall. Worship is a verb, (trans,& intrans) A trans, 1,To accord worship to,to revere and adore as GOD. 2, to reguard with great or excessive admiration or reverence; IDOLISE, ADORE.
Taking worship to that level is to make Jesus very God himself. And turns him into the man of sin. written about by the apolstle Paul in 2Thes2. Like i said God permits us to Bow to Jesus, But only to the Glory of God, not to atribute the Glory to the person of Jesus himself.
Look at all “christainty” today they worship Jesus as very God, in fact to the point where Then Father isn't hardly ever mentioned, it's just all about Jesus and nothing about the Father. I will give glory to who Jesus gave Glory too and worship who Jesus told me to worship and it wasn't him.
Like i said Honor yes, worship only if God tells me to.jesus was God's workmanship not his own. It was God who brought him forth,taught, guided, instructed, commissioned, and did the work just like Jesus said and should get the glory for what he did, including the mericales that the FAther did through Jesus. People today worship the messenger but not the one who sent Him.
like i said it's just the way i see it thats all…….genemr steve
Quote Gene; Do you see any significance at all in the statement by the Father, let all the angels of God worship him? Christ was born to be worshipped? He is the Son of God.
Mr Steve. Worship belongs to God alone.
Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
Stephen was kneeling and praying directly to Jesus. There is no evidence that he was praying to Jesus in the Fathers name, or that he was praying to the Father in Jesus' name.
Stephen was kneeling in prayer and worshipping his God Jesus.Look!
Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, who was calling on God and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Act 7:60 And kneeling down, he cried with a loud voice, Lord, do not lay this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.From the Literal Translation Bible. (LITV)
Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, invoking and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. .
Act 7:60 And placing the knees, he cried out with a loud voice, Lord, do not make stand this sin to them. And having said this, he fell asleep.See also from the YLT (1898 Young's Literal Translation)
Act 7:59 and they were stoning Stephen, calling and saying, `Lord Jesus, receive my spirit;'
Act 7:60 and having bowed the knees, he cried with a loud voice, `Lord, mayest thou not lay to them this sin;' and this having said, he fell asleep.
Stephen was kneeling and praying directly to Jesus. Stephen was worshiping Jesus.
Rev 19:10 tells us to worship only God:
Jesus is Yahweh God
Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
Rom 16:18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.Quote (Cult Buster @ Aug. 16 2007,00:21) mr steve Quote Gene; Do you see any significance at all in the statement by the Father, let all the angels of God worship him? Christ was born to be worshipped? He is the Son of God.
Mr Steve. Worship belongs to God alone.
Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
cult buster……> you post WORSHIP GOD ONLY, But you don't believe Jesus when He Said to God (THOU ART THE ONLY TRUE GOD )And you acuse others useing decieving words when out of your own mouth you show your confusion,and lack of knowledge by trouting your trinitarian brain wash job around. I think you need to see how you are twisting scriptures rather then others twisting them.
You think you are a cult buster when in fact you are in the biggest,lying, killing,torching,oppressing, CULT that ever existed and all the above can be proven buy any one who can read history. Like the Great reformer John Calvin , who orcrustrated the Murder of the Spainard Micheal Servetus for his writing against the TRINITY . Pick up the Book OUT OF THE FLAMES and read it. It's a word for word acount of the trial.Trinitarians are full of blood shed from there beginning at the council of Necia to this present times like Ireland for example. And you think your mission is to bust cults, well you could start with the biggest one of all THE ONE YOUR IN. And saying is the BIGEST LIE OF ALL. Look it up in 2thes2 who is in the temple of God beening Destpayed as very God is it not Jesus and who is doing the desplaying is it Not YOU and YOUR CULT>………good luck your going to need it,……..geneCB;
If Jesus is the Word and the Word is God, who is the Son of God?
Do you believe that Jesus is God the Father and God the Son?Steven
Gene;
Do you believe that Christ is your Saviour? Do you believe that the blood of Jesus cleanses you from all unrighteousness? Do you believe that the fullness of the Godhead dwells in Christ?
Steven
I believe Christ is my savior, he is the only way to the Father. I believe he is worthy of being praised and glorified because the Father has given him the authority to Rule over mankind. Jesus Christ represents God, therefore we honor him, because we know the Father has given him the authority. Same with Cyrus, God said “They will walk behind you, they will come over in chains And [WILL Bow Down TO you]; They will make SUPPLICATION[submit or give praise], to you:SAYING 'Surely, God is WITH you, and there is none else, No other God.'”
How much more is Jesus Christ worthy of our praise for we know he is the Son of God,the Righteous Word, the Lamb of God, our Saviour, the Light which leads to our Father. Our Redeemer, who God Almighty is pleased.
God knows our heart, he knows we only worship him as the only TRUE God the Creator of heaven and earth and we know he made Jesus Christ our Lord to the glory of His Holy Name. So as long as we know this isTRUTH we are in the right standing with the Father.
Let us all be ONE as Christ is One with the Father, this is what Jesus prayed about, that we all become ONE, as he is One with the Father, in Spirit, Faith, and Purpose. As long as we know the Truth we abide in Christ as he abides to the Father.
Quote (Mr. Steve @ Aug. 16 2007,07:55) Gene; Do you believe that Christ is your Saviour? Do you believe that the blood of Jesus cleanses you from all unrighteousness? Do you believe that the fullness of the Godhead dwells in Christ?
Steven
Mr. Steve…..> you ask do I believe Jesus is my savoir, No, i believe that God is both my savior and Jesus' savior. I believe Jesus was God's Sacrifice God gave for my sins, and i believe that was a great price He gave for my sins and the whole world, remember it say's the God so loved the world (HE) gave his unique begotten son, it was Gods offering for our sins not Jesus” offering, but God's ofering. Jesus by being obedient to God unto death, was therefore exhulted to his present position by the Father, not himself.And it is not Jesus who cleanes us from our sins but the Father through His Holy Spirit. Just like it say's ,”if any have sins, let him ask the Father who is faithfull to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
The seven spirits of God were (IN) Christ, but were they Him absolutely (NOT), No more then the Spirit of God in us is us. There is only ONE God and one MEDIATOR the (MAN) Jesus The Christ. You seen to keep trying to advance Jesus beyond what the Father does like most trinitarians do.
While we should all honor and respect Jesus, but we should never forget, Jesus was a work of God, Not himself. Jesus without the Help of God would have faired no better then any of us.It was God the Father that Kept Jesus from sins, just like he can us also, when will you give the Father the Glory and honor he deserves, it's as if he doesen't exist in many of your words. It kind of seens you have more respect for Jesus than the Father sometimes. All of salvation is a work of the Father, Like it say's (GOD) was reconciling the whole world to (HIMSELF )through Christ (the annoited) Jesus. Jesus plainly said no man can come to me (EXCEPT THE FATHER) draw him.
So tell me who does the work of salvation is it not the Father.just the way i see it, thats all………gene
Gene what you said is True, it is all the Father's work. It is God's purpose and will to restore,re-established, restitute us back to him. We are reconciled back to God through the blood of Christ Jesus.
Gene,
While I agree that it was the Father's will for Yahshua to come and die, you still must contend with the following when dealing with your philosophy:Act 13:23 “From the descendants of this man, according to promise, God has brought to Israel a Savior, Jesus,
Phl 3:20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;
2Ti 1:10 but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,
Tts 1:4 To Titus, my true child in a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.
Tts 3:6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
2Pe 1:11 for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.
2Pe 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
2Pe 3:18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him {be} the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.Quote (kejonn @ Aug. 16 2007,12:26) Gene,
While I agree that it was the Father's will for Yahshua to come and die, you still must contend with the following when dealing with your philosophy:Act 13:23 “From the descendants of this man, according to promise, God has brought to Israel a Savior, Jesus,
Phl 3:20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;
2Ti 1:10 but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,
Tts 1:4 To Titus, my true child in a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.
Tts 3:6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
2Pe 1:11 for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.
2Pe 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
2Pe 3:18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him {be} the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.
Kejonn ….. there are over 150 scriptures in my concordance that show that God is our salvation. I will list just two ,1 Thes 5:9….> For God did not appoint us to wrat, but to obtain (Salvation) through out Lord Jesus Christ. question who appoint us to salvation, was it Jesus or God. If you say God then God is our savior.
2 Thes 2:13 ….> But we are bound to give thank to (GOD) always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because (GOD) from the beginning chose you for SALVATION through sanctification by the Spirit and Belief in the truth.
who chose us from the beginning for (Salvation) it say's God chose us. And how, through sanctification By the Spirit and Belief in the Truth. This shows our salvation is a work of God so then who is the true savior. It is God Himself who saves us and he used Jesus as a sacrifice For our sins, Like it say's God so loved the world He gave his unique begotten son. that hosoever beliveth in him should not parish but have ever lasting life. I believe in Jesus, i believe God raised him from the dead. But i also know his savior is my savior and Thats God The Father . Jesus was The Fathers sacrifical lamb, the the Father sacrificed for our sins, that brought us Salvation.
God could have just forgave our sins if he wanted to with out Jesus dying, but that would have compromised His requirements for justice. So it was a demenstration of God's righteousness to effect a way of Salvation for us. We are purchased with a price back to God. And that price tag was Jesus. In the sense that Jesus was the price paid we can concider him part of the saving work of God. Jesus defenitly was involved in our salvation. But the overall work, and glory of Salvation belongs to the Father.
peace to you all…….gene
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