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Quote (kejonn @ Aug. 11 2007,12:37) Quote (Oxy @ Aug. 10 2007,16:48) Quote (kejonn @ Aug. 10 2007,06:54) Steve,
Hey, I just thought of something! Trinitarians say that people worshiped Yeshua, and yes they did. They then use this to show he is God because of this verse:Exd 34:14 –for you shall not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God–
Well, the problem here is that He never said not to worship His Son…He just said not to worship any other god! So this is actually a verse that refutes the Trinity!
My friend, this does not refute the trinity at all. You see, God made us in His image. We are a triune being, being body, soul and spirit. God, who made us in His image is also triune, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.If this was not the case, we would not be made in His image.
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over all the creepers creeping on the earth.
That's nice, and inspiring. Too bad its not scriptural or you'd really be on to something!I read some of your site where you say the the Father is like our soul. But you failed to back it up scripturally and that is where you will lose Bereans.
Not Scriptural?Is it not Scriptural that They (God) made us in Their own image?
Is it not a fact that we are body soul and spirit?
God gave us a brain as well, which we have permission to use. More than that, He gave us the Holy Spirit to teach us and guide us into ALL truth. You see, all Scripture was inspired by the Holy Spirit, but Scripture isn't complete in itself. It is not God.
Joh 21:25 And there are also many things, whatever Jesus did, which, if they should be written singly, I suppose the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. Amen.
I was using the picture of the Father being likened to our soul to paint a picture, to help understanding. I didn't think it was a bad picture as that's the way the Lord showed it to me.
Quote (Oxy @ Aug. 10 2007,20:04) Not Scriptural? Is it not Scriptural that They (God) made us in Their own image?
Well, since you say “they” then you've already become unscriptural. Let's look at the creation verses for man again.Gen 1:26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”
Gen 1:27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.Those who want to apply Gen 1:26 to the Trinity leave off Gen 1:27. When it was all said and done, God created man in His (not “their”) own image. Let me ask you: if God is talking to Yeshua in verse 1:26, and Yeshua is God, why does verse 1:27 not say “God created man in Their own image? And don't say “God is one” because He used “Us” and”Our” in v1:26. Why the switch from plural to singular?
Quote Is it not a fact that we are body soul and spirit?
What does this have to do with the Trinity? The fact that both are 3-in-1? That's neat, but a stretch. It is not backed up in scripture.Quote God gave us a brain as well, which we have permission to use. More than that, He gave us the Holy Spirit to teach us and guide us into ALL truth. You see, all Scripture was inspired by the Holy Spirit, but Scripture isn't complete in itself. It is not God.
No it is not. But we test things by scripture. If they do not agree with scripture, they are not of God. We cannot develop theology that disagrees with scripture just because we feel inspired to do so.Quote Joh 21:25 And there are also many things, whatever Jesus did, which, if they should be written singly, I suppose the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. Amen.
I've seen this ploy before. Are you telling me that something supposedly as important as God being triune would be something that God did not reveal to Yeshua so he could tell us while he walked on the earth? I can understand other things concerning certain moral actions (using drugs, pornography, etc.), but I cannot support that a triune nature of God was one of the things that would not be revealed until “later”. After all, is it not supposed to be foundational? Anything foundational is biblical.Quote I was using the picture of the Father being likened to our soul to paint a picture, to help understanding. I didn't think it was a bad picture as that's the way the Lord showed it to me.
I can appreciate that. There is much we do not know. But while knowing whether or not Yeshua is God is not essential to salvation. Yet it is essential to our walk. If Yeshua is God, we can never hope to pattern our lives after him because we can never be God. How can one be Christlike if they cannot be Godlike?Quote (kejonn @ Aug. 11 2007,12:42) Quote (Oxy @ Aug. 10 2007,16:55) Joh 17:5 And now Father, glorify Me with Yourself with the glory which I had with You before the world was. What was the former glory of Jesus?
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.Jesus was God. He was born as Saviour/Lord, and has ben returned to His former glory.
Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, My Lord and my God!
But Yeshua saidJhn 20:17 Jesus said to her, “Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.' “
Jhn 4:23 “But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.
Jhn 4:24 “God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
How many Gods do you have? I'm going to worship the one that Yeshua told me to worship, God the Father.
Thanks for your post kejonn.I haven't read all your posts, but of the ones I have, I totally agree with them.
Not that this makes what you say true, but I think it is great that different people come to the same conclusions by scripture and by the Spirit.
The Body of Christ needs to be in unity. But it is important to establish on what we should be unified on.
Doctrine is one of those things. Yes we can have opinions, but there are things that are foundational and therefore they are not open to other beliefs. One of those beliefs is that Jesus is truly the son of God and the messiah from God. Anything that attacks this truth is antichrist. The Trinity doctrine subtly attacks this truth.
Quote (kejonn @ Aug. 11 2007,15:11) Gen 1:27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
This is another tell tale sign that the Trinity doctrine is wrong.Trinitarians call God “HIM” and then say he is 3 persons.
Yet when you say him/his it is always to 1 person.
So they believe in a 3 person God and yet they do not say “they/”them” because such language (although grammatically correct for their belief) isn't found in scripture and therefore they mimic scripture so as to not be caught out.
Whether they do this intentionally or not doesn't matter. The point is that they do it.
Quote (t8 @ Aug. 11 2007,19:19) Quote (kejonn @ Aug. 11 2007,15:11) Gen 1:27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
This is another tell tale sign that the Trinity doctrine is wrong.Trinitarians call God “HIM” and then say he is 3 persons.
Yet when you say him/his it is always to 1 person.
So they believe in a 3 person God and yet they do not say “they/”them” because such language (although grammatically correct for their belief) isn't found in scripture and therefore they mimic scripture so as to not be caught out.
Whether they do this intentionally or not doesn't matter. The point is that they do it.
Hi t8, It's been a while.It seems to be a harder concept for people to understand than what I thought. Yes, God is One. That One is made up of Father, Son and Holy Spirit according to my understanding of Scripture.
The Father, the ultimate authority
The Word, who was born Jesus and has since returned to the Father and received again His former glory.
The Holy Spirit who was sent to us when Jesus left to be our comforter, teacher etc.But this has all been said before, and I agree that the main thing is that we have our salvation. Knowing Jesus and the Father and having that ongoing life changing experience is the most important thing.
Oxy….> listen to what t8 and Kejonn are telling you. If you are holding to the triniatarian idology you are at risk,because it is a act of Idolatry to make Jesus a God, it forms the image of the man of sin, and is the work satan himself. Look at the history of all the churches that provocated this lie, they are full of blood shed and torture and all the time saying they are repersenting Christ but really are anti-Christ' and still are. Think about it while you still have time…..God Help you to see…….gene
Quote (Oxy @ Aug. 11 2007,12:11) Ahh, you still call me Bro, I guess that's something lol
You believe that Jesus is The Son of God and died for our sins. Then you are my brother, a deceived Brother but nonetheless a Brother.I believe during the Millennium when Satan is bound up everyone will be taught the truth. The question is will you be teaching me OR will I be teaching you. I'm willing to accept either as long as I receive the truth. AMEN?
Quote (kenrch @ Aug. 12 2007,03:39) Quote (Oxy @ Aug. 11 2007,12:11) Ahh, you still call me Bro, I guess that's something lol
You believe that Jesus is The Son of God and died for our sins. Then you are my brother, a deceived Brother but nonetheless a Brother.I believe during the Millennium when Satan is bound up everyone will be taught the truth. The question is will you be teaching me OR will I be teaching you. I'm willing to accept either as long as I receive the truth. AMEN?
How sweet of you to point out that I am deceived. Thanks BRO lol.If God, who speaks to me regularly were to tell me that, I would agree, but funnily enough, He has been my teacher for the past 30 years and He tells me differently. Whom should I believe?
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 12 2007,03:30) Oxy….> listen to what t8 and Kejonn are telling you. If you are holding to the triniatarian idology you are at risk,because it is a act of Idolatry to make Jesus a God, it forms the image of the man of sin, and is the work satan himself. Look at the history of all the churches that provocated this lie, they are full of blood shed and torture and all the time saying they are repersenting Christ but really are anti-Christ' and still are. Think about it while you still have time…..God Help you to see…….gene
Thanks Gene.This is what God taught me when I asked Him about it.
Oxy….> most all “Christian” people in the world are trinitarians and push the trinity teachings, the whole world lies in deception and is infected with these false teaching. The trinity doctrine was never taught in the scriptures. Read 2Thes2 and you can see it's the lie about Jesus being desplayed as God Himself. remember who is now seated in the temple of God an being desplayed as God< It's Jesus himself. Read in Isaisah 43-45 where God say's there is no other God besides him planily. Don't fall into the false teaching of the trinity, there is only one God, remember when Jesus said ," Thou art the (ONLY) true (GOD) and he wasn't talking about his self either.
Please reconcider you stand it will be life from the dead.
May our Only God help you to see this……..geneQuote (Oxy @ Aug. 12 2007,11:59) Quote (kenrch @ Aug. 12 2007,03:39) Quote (Oxy @ Aug. 11 2007,12:11) Ahh, you still call me Bro, I guess that's something lol
You believe that Jesus is The Son of God and died for our sins. Then you are my brother, a deceived Brother but nonetheless a Brother.I believe during the Millennium when Satan is bound up everyone will be taught the truth. The question is will you be teaching me OR will I be teaching you. I'm willing to accept either as long as I receive the truth. AMEN?
How sweet of you to point out that I am deceived. Thanks BRO lol.If God, who speaks to me regularly were to tell me that, I would agree, but funnily enough, He has been my teacher for the past 30 years and He tells me differently. Whom should I believe?
Believe the scriptures and the Spirit that agree.Spirit AND truth. Not just the spirit. There are many spirits in the world you must test them with the Word.
Oxy….Jesus said the words i tell you are spirit and are life. We both know the words Jesus told us are true. But like Kenrch pointed out there are words,ie,spirits that are not truth. We need to be carefull of what we read and hear. I believe it's better to be a critical hearer and reader in order to get all the facts surounding something.
bless you brother…..geneseeking the truth…..> it plainly say's in Rev 12:17 the ones that will be there, Keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus. Jesus testomony was about the Father the One and Only God.
Peace to you seeking the truth you have found it….gene
Gene, thank you!
I also read in Isaiah 44 and 45 That the LORD our God is determined to accomplish his PURPOSE and WILL through his Word and power by this…HE USES people. What I mean is that God chooses who he wants to ANOINT/sanctify. Through these people he fulfills his righteous purpose by guiding their actions and through his Holy Spirit they do what The LORD tells them to do.
Isaiah44:28 That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid.(God's Word NEVER COMES OUT EMTY)
Cyrus – Whom God here mentions by his proper name, more than a hundred years before he was born, that this might be an undeniable evidence of the exactness of God's fore – knowledge and a convincing argument to conclude this dispute between God and idols. God also fore told this with Jesus Christ our Messiah born of Virgin Birth hundreds of years later.
God did this BECAUSE IT IS HIS PURPOSE AND WILL for US to only serve and trust, in HIM alone. All that God has said is plain, satisfactory, and just.
God said to about his plan for CyrusIsaiah 45:2 KJV: I will go before thee, and make the crooked places straight: I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron: I will give you treasures from dark places and hidden stockpiles. Then you will know that I, the LORD God of Israel, have called you by name.
45:1-4 Cyrus is called God's anointed; he was designed and qualified for his great service by the counsel of God. The gates of Babylon which led to the river, were left open the night that Cyrus marched his army into the empty channel. The Lord went before him, giving entrance to the cities he besieged. He gave him also treasures, which had been hidden in secret places. The true God was to Cyrus an unknown God; yet God foreknew him; he called him by his name. The exact fulfilment of this must have shown Cyrus that YAHWEH was the only true God, and that it was for the sake of Israel that he was prospered. “so that from the east to the west people will know that there is no God except HIM. “I am the LORD, and there is no other.”
This is what God said to Cyrus in Isaiah 45:14 NASB: Thus says the LORD, “The products of Egypt and the merchandise of Cush And the Sabeans, men of stature, Will come over to you and will be yours; They will walk behind you, they will come over in chains And [will Bow Down to you]; They will make supplication to you: 'Surely, God is WITH you, and there is none else, No other God.'”
Same with Jesus Christ..surely Christ was the Son of God, he was anoited by the father, he did what the LORD told him to do. Why? because God the Father CHOSE Jesus to be our Mediator. The LORD'S suffereing Servant(Isaiah 52-53) “it was the LORD'S good plan to crush him and cause him grief. Yet when his life is made an offering for sin he will have many decendants. He will enjoy a long life and the LORD'S good plan(purpose) will prosper in his hands. Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.” All the holy prophets and kings that fear and love the Lord our great because of God. God chose them in the beginning to demonstrate his power through them in order for OTHERS to come to Him for others to know that he is the ONLY LVING GOD. Who made the Heavens and the Earth, who created Everything. These people were vessels of God..their PURPOSE was to lead others to God!
God bless and may HE direct us all to the truth..May we also continue to learn from one another ..
Seeking the truth…..It's very obivious that The FAther has opened your eyes to these truths….bless you….gene
Oxy that article does not represents the trinity doctrine the right way. It says three in one, but not coequal. Which is absolutely false. If you were a Catholic you would know that. 3 Person in 1 means all in one. How can it be all in one, if one part is not equal. Then it becomes not not 3in1. It does not even make sense to me. But I know what the trinity doctrine teaches, I came out of the Catholic Church and taught that doctrine to 4 of our Children, unfortunately. Good luck to you in searching for the truth.
Peace and Love Mrs.Gene;
There are eight cases in the new testament where Christ was worshipped. Do you know any on them? There are six in the gospel of Mathew alone. Was anyone ever rebuked for worshipping Christ? By the way, the same greek word is used for worship in all these cases as in John 4:24. The case is Revelation you cited was not one of the cases I recalled.
To OXY;
I have a body, soul, and a spirit, am I three distinct persons?
If you stop and think about the 3 in 1 concept of God, what you are saying is God is not complete in himself without Christ his Son. Where in scripture does the Father submit to the Son, worship the Son, or keep the Son's commands?To show you how the trinity was not even in the imaginations of anyone that lived in the new testament, read Mathew. The angels call Christ the Son of God, the Father calls Christ the Son of God, the demons identify Christ as the Son of God, the soldiers while crucifying Christ call him the Son of God. My point is even the unbelievers and the believers at the time of Christ knew who Christ claimed he was, despite the fact that some accepted him and some rejected him, they all knew who he was claiming to be. Even the priests who tried to say that Christ claimed equality with God, knew that he said he was the Son of God. Of course, Christ explained thoroughly that he was not equal with the Father. The entire concept of the Son being the Father in the flesh without a distinct indentity of each was never even asserted by his accusers, let alone Christ's followers. Anyone that would have asserted that Christ was the Father or Almighty (as some teach today) would have been laughed to scorn or marked as mentally incompetent. Such a person would instantly be given a scripture lesson and encouraged to attend the synagogue, get tutoring, or perhaps a mental evaluation.
The Father God is absolutely self existent in himself, he needs no other to be God alone. Jesus Christ is his Son. He was in the bosom of the Father before creation and resides in glory awaiting for the Father's commandment to return. The Holy Ghost is our tutor in truth until Christ returns.
Mr. Steve
Mr. Steve….I know there were people who worshiped Jesus, but i see no were we are told to worship him and i wouldn't stop anyone from doing it either, but i will not unless God the Father tells me to, and the scriptures i mentioned does not show anyone worshiping him either.Many people thought Jesus was himself doing those mericales that God was doing and they worshiped him as the source of those mericales. But we know better, we know it was the Father who did them, and that makes a difference between us and them.
Just my point of view………geneMr. Steve…..> the cases you mentioned was not my point and does not change the what i was saying, even though everyone around the throne was worshiping and the Lamb was present they did not worship him they only worshiped God The Father and not him. It does not say God and the Lamb they worshiped, just God only. I still feel that i should only worship The Father only.
just the way i see it thats all……..geneJesus was worshipped/honoured as the son of God and the Lamb.
But not as God.Matthew 14:33
Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.”Revelation 5:12-13
12 In a loud voice they sang:
“Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain,
to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength
and honor and glory and praise!”13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing:
“To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!”
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