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Hello Chipwhite…..> let me explain what i am trying to get across to everyone here in simple terms.
1…the defication of Jesus is not scriptual. no where are we told to worship him in any capacity, to follow him yes, to listen to the word he spoke to us yes. Jesus was not sent to be worshiped, but to deministrate to us how to have a right relationship with The Father.
2….Jesus is not the Word he is the one who spoke (God's Words) to us, not his words to us.
3…..The present bibles were written by trinitarians who believe Jesus is God Himself in three forms or essences. The trinitarians force the text in many proven places to defiy Jesus as God. They captialize Words to make them apear as a person instead of there simple meannings, for instance where it say's in John1:1 that the word was with God and the word was God, they make the word (WORD) so instead of meaning it becomes a person (Jesus) giving a prexistence to Him. And where it say's it Christ that followed the childern of Israel in the wilderness, it should read it was the christos or annointing or Spirit that followed them, instead of the Spirit they make it Jesus by simply captializing the words and this is done in a number of places the the bibles we now have. You need to get a Good Original Greek text and you can find many of these mistranslations.
was this done accidently ? I think satan wants us to think Jesus is a diety and even a GOD, why? because he Knows if we believe Jesus prexisted and had another begining he knows we will think in ourselves we could never really be Just like Him and turn our eyes away from the very reason God created him for. Which is to show us we can be exactly like Jesus in every way, and come to the full measure of him, like it say's. This defication, and prexsistence, of Jesus came from Satan Himself, and turns Jesus into what Paul said in 2Thes2 as the man of sin.
It is vital that we see Jesus Just as we are without any advantage over us, so we can relate with him Just as we relate with each other and be encouraged that what the Father did for our brother Jesus he can and will do for us also.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 05 2007,17:13) 1…the defication of Jesus is not scriptual. no where are we told to worship him in any capacity, to follow him yes, to listen to the word he spoke to us yes. Jesus was not sent to be worshiped, but to deministrate to us how to have a right relationship with The Father.
I think Gene, you mean “deification”. And you are mistaken, Yeshua is explicitly called “God” several times in NT scripture, therefore it is scriptural. He is also described as Creator sevela times in the NT, when the OT tells us only YHWH was involved. He also fulfilled prophecy that only YHWH could (John 19:37 cf. Zech 10:12). He is also explicitly called “YHWH” in Zechariah 14.Quote .Jesus is not the Word he is the one who spoke (God's Words) to us, not his words to us.
Incorrect Yeshua both for God and as God. Read the “I tell you” statements in Matthew 5:17-7:21. The chapter ends with this statement
thusly:When Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were amazed at his teaching, because he taught as one who had authority, and not as their teachers of the law. (Matt. 7:28-29)
Yeshua was not the self-effacing automaton you paint Him as Gene, He spoke with authority (“I say unto you”…) in a way that astonished people. The Jews were quite used to people speaking for God, the legal professions of their day were quite adept at this, but some that spoke as only YHWH would….that's different….
Quote 3…..The present bibles were written by trinitarians who believe Jesus is God Himself in three forms or essences.
Please produce proof for your conspiracy theory Gene. Substantiate your claim that Bible translators universally conspired to doctor the texts in order that their theological biases would be codified in the Bible…..Quote The trinitarians force the text in many proven places to defiy Jesus as God. They captialize Words to make them apear as a person instead of there simple meannings, for instance where it say's in John1:1 that the word was with God and the word was God, they make the word (WORD) so instead of meaning it becomes a person (Jesus) giving a prexistence to Him.
The translators had every justification to do this. The language and context in John 1:1-4 makes it quite plain that the Logos was a person. An impersonal 'concept' cannot always exist (refer “en” in John 1:1a), it cannot have intimate fellowship with the Father (refer “pros” in John 1:1b), it cannot be described as God (refer “theos” in John 1:1c), it cannot make anything (refer John 1:3) and it cannot have any kind “life” in Him (refer John 1:4). It's easy to see why the translators arrived at the conclusion that the Logos was a personage. If you don't like it, blame the writer John…..Quote And where it say's it Christ that followed the childern of Israel in the wilderness, it should read it was the christos or annointing or Spirit that followed them, instead of the Spirit they make it Jesus by simply captializing the words and this is done in a number of places the the bibles we now have. You need to get a Good Original Greek text and you can find many of these mistranslations.
When the NT writer use the term “christos” is almost invariably used in reference of the person of Christ. This is also true of 1 Cor 10:4, the Greek word for Spirit is “pneuma” Gene, and this word is not found in 1 Cor 10:4.Quote was this done accidently ? I think satan wants us to think Jesus is a diety and even a GOD, why? because he Knows if we believe Jesus prexisted and had another begining he knows we will think in ourselves we could never really be Just like Him and turn our eyes away from the very reason God created him for. Which is to show us we can be exactly like Jesus in every way, and come to the full measure of him, like it say's.
Do you really want to follow a Jesus that is like you in every way Gene?? How absurd…..Quote This defication, and prexsistence, of Jesus came from Satan Himself, and turns Jesus into what Paul said in 2Thes2 as the man of sin.
To the contrary Gene, if Yeshua really was YHWH (and the original manuscripts do bear this out), then I would imagine Satan would want to hide/distort/confuse this truth any which way he could. He would want people to invest their faith in a counterfeit Jesus (2 Corinthians 11:4) so that the salvation that is found only in Him (Acts 4:12, John 8:24) would be unavailable.Quote It is vital that we see Jesus Just as we are without any advantage over us, so we can relate with him Just as we relate with each other and be encouraged that what the Father did for our brother Jesus he can and will do for us also.
It's vital that we preach the Jesus that the Bible describes. He is:-God – John 1:1
O God – Heb 1:8
My God – John 20:28
Our God – 2 Peter 1:1
Great God – Titus 2:13
Mighty God – Isa 9:6
First and Last – Rev 1:17
Alpha and Omega – Rev 22:13
YHWH – Zech 14:5,7,9,12,13,16,17,18,20,21Not a false one, the One true God…..
Blessings
Quote (chipwhite @ Aug. 05 2007,13:24) Hello Gene have been reading some of your posts and sometimes I feel a little intimidated by some of the concepts you guys are wrestling with even if I do not agree with some of the posts. What are your thoughts about what I am talking about.
Hello Chip White.For the sake of balance, here are three posts you might like to read.
Is 1:18's proof text #1 – Hebrews 1:10
Is 1:18's Proof Text #2 – John 19:37
Is 1:18's Proof Text #3 – John 1:1c
Blessings
IS,
- God – John 1:1 – explain “logos en theos” versus “autos einai theos” in Acts 28:6. That is “word was God” versus “he was a god”. Both “en” and “einai” derive from “eimi”.
- O God – Heb 1:8 – explain why the OT reference verse was applied to an earthly king and said the exact same thing.
- My God – John 20:28 – explain why Yeshua called the Father “My God and your God” in 20:17 if there is only one God. Trinitarians assert that there are three “persons” but comparing “My God” in 20:28 to 20:17 would lead to the conclusion, and the only viable one, that there is more than one God if Thomas is putting Christ on the same level as the Father. Both cannot be Gods in the same sense because this is contrary to the Trinity – they must be “persons” of God. So if Yeshua was Thomas' God, who was the Father to Thomas? In the words of Trinitarians “how many gods does Thomas have?”
- Our God – 2 Peter 1:1 – He is called God…if you use the right translation. Otherwise
KJV: Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
WEY: Simon Peter, a bondservant and Apostle of Jesus Christ: To those to whom there has been allotted the same precious faith as that which is ours through the righteousness of our God and of our Saviour Jesus Christ.
WBS: Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Savior Jesus Christ:Also, if “God and Savior” is combined in 1:1 as you believe, why are they then distinctly separated in the very next verse? In the words of Trinitarians “how many gods does Peter have?”.
2Pe 1:2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord;
- Great God – Titus 2:13 – Nope. You are not reading the verse properly.
Tts 2:13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,
This verse is telling us that Christ Jesus is “the glory of our great God and Savior”. Had Paul left out “the glory of” you would have a case, but this is in there.
- Mighty God – Isa 9:6 – “name shall be called” is not the same as actually being. I have listed several biblical names in other posts that have meanings that if they made the person the meaning, they too would be God. What about “Eternal Father” BTW?
- First and Last – Rev 1:17 – Is this a title that God Almighty said was His alone? First and last what? And YHWH said “I am the first and I am the last”. If you assume it is a title, then Yeshua's is different: “I am the first and the last”
- Alpha and Omega – Rev 22:13 – Assuming this is indeed Yeshua, again, is this only claimed of God Almighty? Did God say “I am the only Alpha and Omega”? Can you even tell me what “Alpha and Omega” signifies?
- YHWH – Zech 14:5,7,9,12,13,16,17,18,20,21 – I've seen you use this but never explain how it applies to Yeshua. Do you have a thread where this is exlained? I don't see how you are applying this to Yeshua. Thanks.
Love God – Love People!
Chipwhite…..> as you can see there are two camps on this site most are non trinitarians and other are trinitarians. I myself am not a trinitarian and glad i am not. I see Jesus as a man Just like me who demonstrated how the salvation of Our and His, Only God and Father is the only true savior of all mankind. He is called our Brother in Hebrews, and we are Joint heirs with Him Just like it say's and how could he be an heir if he is God, It is God who gives Him and Us our inherence. Jesus did not come to be a God to us, but a way to God and he demonstrated to us by being a example to us. And when he prayed He used the term OUR FATHER who art in HEAVEN , notice two things, First the word OUR means our and his Father, and equal position as ours in relationship, and where was his and our Father, in Heaven and He was on earth. There are many, many scriptures that suport that Jesus was Just a man Just like you and me. What incouragement could we recieve if Jesus were different from us if he had advantages that he only could have, then his death would only be a sham because he being a God could not have really died because it say's God cannot Die. There are so many places that show Jesus was not God it would take Hours to show them, hope this site helps you see this. …peace to you …gene
and if ISA1:18. is watching…. you meant several instead of sevela,
Issa1:18…. where did I say there was a universal conspiracy buy the translators, no they did not (universally) conspier to decieve any one, they simply were decieved into the Idology of the trinity as you are and when translating the text used this reasoning and forced the text unaware of what they were doing just like you are.
I never said they universally got together and conspired to decieve any they were simply the blind leading the blind. AS i believe you do.next…do i really want to follow a man who is Just like me in every way, and overcame the sins i have through the Power of His God and MY GOD, answer is a no brainer, YES !
God My Father gave me a Brother who made it, who shows me a way to make it also and it is just like he made it.
it's sad to me you can't see that., Isaiah1:18 how sad.!self-effacing automation im painting him to be, those are your words not mine. I never said Jesus was self-effacing anything. You simply can't believe that God could take a simple MAN like you and me and teach him and guide him and YOKE together with Him as well as Us can You, MY how you limit Our God< but gess what He can and Did, rather you believe it or not, He did.
And throwing all kind of trinitarian altered texts at Us won't change the understanding of what OUR GOD has given US.
good luck on your trip, I have a feeling your going to need it……geneGene,
I agree with you. For 20 years, I taught that to be a Christian was to be “Christ like”. It was the simplest and yet most accurate definition of Christian. But if Yeshua is God, how can we even start to hope that we can be like him? So all of those years, whenever I said “we must strive to be like him”, I typically appended the statement with “but we can't truly be like him, no completely”. So, deep down, I knew that it was hopeless to pattern my life after someone who is God in the flesh.
Now that I have shed myself of such beliefs, I now feel new hope in knowing that I can be more like him than ever before. We can't match the perfection of God, but we can come close to matching the perfection of the only perfect man.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Aug. 05 2007,04:24)
I think Gene, you mean “deification”. And you are mistaken, Yeshua is explicitly called “God” several times in NT scripture, therefore it is scriptural. He is also described as Creator sevela times in the NT, when the OT tells us only YHWH was involved. He also fulfilled prophecy that only YHWH could (John 19:37 cf. Zech 10:12). He is also explicitly called “YHWH” in Zechariah 14.
I think that the confusion comes in thinking that something called “logos” could be a separate entity in and of itself. There really is no concrete evidence that this is true. You can point to John 1:1 but this still does not give a clear separation. However, if Yeshua was what it says, “the Word of God”, than the word of God did participate in creation. The first chapter of Genesis is full of the statement “And God said”. He said what? He said with “words”. The “word of God”. And since the word comes from YHWH, it can truly be said that the word is begotten.Do you not “beget” your own words?
Quote Incorrect Yeshua both for God and as God. Read the “I tell you” statements in Matthew 5:17-7:21. The chapter ends with this statement
thusly:When Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were amazed at his teaching, because he taught as one who had authority, and not as their teachers of the law. (Matt. 7:28-29)
Yeshua was not the self-effacing automaton you paint Him as Gene, He spoke with authority (“I say unto you”…) in a way that astonished people. The Jews were quite used to people speaking for God, the legal professions of their day were quite adept at this, but some that spoke as only YHWH would….that's different….
Yet there were many OT prophets that spoke with authority. How does this prove Yeshua is God? Amos was a very ordinary man (”among the sheepherders”) until God chose him to be a prophet. Ever notice that God loves to choose the least of men to speak for him? And how much more “ordinary” can you get than a carpenter's son, born in a stable?Quote Please produce proof for your conspiracy theory Gene. Substantiate your claim that Bible translators universally conspired to doctor the texts in order that their theological biases would be codified in the Bible…..
I've seen some accusations of this. Even that the “church” admitted to changing manuscripts. But I have not followed up on this because I believe that they failed in skewing the scriptures if so. There is still abundant evidence that Yeshua is not the Living God, God Almighty, YHWH, in what we do have. I think it now lies in the fact that we are not well informed of how people viewed the usage of some words (“theos”) in the first century.Quote The translators had every justification to do this. The language and context in John 1:1-4 makes it quite plain that the Logos was a person. An impersonal 'concept' cannot always exist (refer “en” in John 1:1a), it cannot have intimate fellowship with the Father (refer “pros” in John 1:1b), it cannot be described as God (refer “theos” in John 1:1c), it cannot make anything (refer John 1:3) and it cannot have any kind “life” in Him (refer John 1:4). It's easy to see why the translators arrived at the conclusion that the Logos was a personage. If you don't like it, blame the writer John…..
Philo of Alexandria would disagree with you. He wrote in the first century, and he wrote in Greek, and he wrote of logos. I do believe that the translators have taken some liberties in capitalization though because of pressure or preconceived notions. And I agree that capitalization is a confusing thing when the average reader encounters it.I also think you place way too much value in the Greek word “en”. It means nothing other that “was”, “were”, etc. How does this simple word hold so much value?
Quote When the NT writer use the term “christos” is almost invariably used in reference of the person of Christ. This is also true of 1 Cor 10:4, the Greek word for Spirit is “pneuma” Gene, and this word is not found in 1 Cor 10:4.
I agree on “christos” because it is only translated as “Christ”. But the extension of “pneuma” is “pneumatikos”. That word IS found here. What is the point here?Quote Do you really want to follow a Jesus that is like you in every way Gene?? How absurd…..
Hmmm…not in every way, but if Yeshua is God, can we ever even really begin to be “Christ-like”? After all, we can never be God. Then why even bother to try?Have you stopped to consider why the Muslim religion is now outpacing Christianity? Could it be that we have made “our” prophet out to be God while theirs is not? It is much easier to follow someone who is like us than someone who is God because we know we will always fail. We can never be God.
Quote To the contrary Gene, if Yeshua really was YHWH (and the original manuscripts do bear this out), then I would imagine Satan would want to hide/distort/confuse this truth any which way he could. He would want people to invest their faith in a counterfeit Jesus (2 Corinthians 11:4) so that the salvation that is found only in Him (Acts 4:12, John 8:24) would be unavailable.
Was he hiding the identity of Yeshua when he called him “Son of God” rather than calling him “God”? We're talking scripture here, which is supposed to hold the truth, correct? If Satan had access to the throne of God (Job 1, 2) then he would know that Yeshua is God [i[if he truly was[/i]. Yet he only called him “Son of God”. As did the various demons that Yeshua cast out. You think that they would have caught on from their master.And your 2 Corinthians 11 reference rings hollow. Paul did not preach Trinity. Show me where. So the Yeshua he preached was the one that said “Son of God”, “Christ”, and “Messiah”.
Psa 50:1
[[A Psalm of Asaph.]] The mighty God, [even] the LORD, hath spoken, and called the earth from the rising of the sun unto the going down thereof.Even calling the one that prevailed, the Loin from the tribe of Judah, whom redeems souls back to God.
Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.God talks to the reedmner , The holy one of Israel.
Isa 43:4 Since thou wast precious in my sight, thou hast been honourable, and I have loved thee: therefore will I give men for thee, and people for thy life. Isa 43:5 Fear not: for I [am] with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west; Isa 43:6 I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth; Isa 43:7 [Even] every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him. Isa 43:8 ¶ Bring forth the blind people that have eyes, and the deaf that have ears.
Isa 41:1 ¶ Keep silence before me, O islands; and let the people renew [their] strength: let them come near; then let them speak: let us come near together to judgment.
Isa 41:2 *Who* raised up the righteous [man] from the east, called him to his foot, gave the nations before him, and made [him] rule over kings? he gave [them] as the dust to his sword, [and] as driven stubble to his bow. Isa 41:3 He pursued them, [and] passedWho raised the righteous Man, to become the ruler over Kings, That God called to His FOOT, and gave him power and authority to be called the God of the earth, for God is the God that created the Hosts of Heaven and earth
Isa 54:5
For thy Maker [is] thine husband; the LORD of hosts [is] his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth *shall he be called.*
Made Subject to… that God shall be made all in allChipWhite,
I'm moving to a new thread. I'll start a new called Hear Sound Doctrine. We can continue there and I'll answer you question about “physical” relationship there.
LaurelQuote (kejonn @ Aug. 06 2007,09:21) Gene, I agree with you. For 20 years, I taught that to be a Christian was to be “Christ like”. It was the simplest and yet most accurate definition of Christian. But if Yeshua is God, how can we even start to hope that we can be like him? So all of those years, whenever I said “we must strive to be like him”, I typically appended the statement with “but we can't truly be like him, no completely”. So, deep down, I knew that it was hopeless to pattern my life after someone who is God in the flesh.
Now that I have shed myself of such beliefs, I now feel new hope in knowing that I can be more like him than ever before. We can't match the perfection of God, but we can come close to matching the perfection of the only perfect man.
Kejonn….> that is exactually what satan wants us to think is we can't possibly be like Jesus, so he created the idology that Jesus is a God and by this false image of Jesus he caused all who buy the Lie to think they could never really become like Jesus, because Jesus in their minds is a God and they Know they arn't so they would loose Hope and Faith that God can do for them what he did for Jesus. The whole seperation of Jesus and our likeness is for this reason, to discourage people and cause them to loose hope and faith in the ONE AND ONLY TRUE GOD. Who Is our Father and Jesus our Brother's Father also. Satan is behind the whole trinitarian Idology and is the Father of THE LIE, Just as Paul said in 2Thes2 about the Man Of Sin. And if someone has been deluded in believeing it, it is almost impossible to get rid of it unless God The Father Brings them out of that false teaching.t8, I agree!
My mother is in me…..her DNA is a part of who I am (I am her daughter)…..but when I die it will be ME that dies, not my mother!
God was/is in Jesus…..his DNA is a part of who Jesus is (Jesus is God's Son)….but when Jesus died it was JESUS who died, not his Father!
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Aug. 05 2007,21:24) God – John 1:1
O God – Heb 1:8
My God – John 20:28
Our God – 2 Peter 1:1
Great God – Titus 2:13
Mighty God – Isa 9:6
First and Last – Rev 1:17
Alpha and Omega – Rev 22:13
YHWH – Zech 14:5,7,9,12,13,16,17,18,20,21
Isaiah,Is this the exhaustive list of places where Jesus is called God? Is this it? Wow. Not very many verses at all, it's amazing to see that just in this list – no where is Jesus referred to as ALMIGHTY GOD!
I'll take a loot at these verses one by one. I know a lot of them have really good explainations attached to them (found here in various threads). So, if this is the only list of *proof* that Jesus is God in scripture, and I was a Trinitarian, I'd have to “weigh” these scriptures in light of the whole Bible (yikes!)
Isaiah;
Who did the Father say Christ was at his baptism? What did Gabriel the Angel tell Mary her child would be called?
Steven
To all;
I would like all of you to consider John 1:1 in a new light. Jesus said the seed was the Word of God in the parable of the sower. Peter said we have been born again by the incorruptible seed, the word of God. Genesis says God made all things and its “seed” was in itself. Paul said God's eternal power and Godhead may be explained by the things which he has made. When John says in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and was God, might he be saying that the seed of eternal life (the Word) was in God. Christ was begotten of God of his Word, he is the seed of God and also the seed of Abraham. The Word was in God just as an apple's seed is in an apple. It is accurate to say the same is with the apple. I'm seeing that John 1:1 isn't referring to Christ but to God almighty and all that is begotten by him.
Later in the passage the scripture says that he came to his own. Jesus said that they were his Father's and were given to him from his Father. The Father was in the world in Christ Jesus. Jesus said that the Father was in him and he doeth the works.
Mr. Steve …..you are right the seed is God's word and it can and is in US and the same seed was in Jesus this is the annointing it is making him the massiah and this word is the mind of God and just as it say's “let this mind be in you which was in Christ Jesus our Lord, and (IF) this mind be in you it will (ALSO) quicken our mortal bodies”. Just like it did Jesus, You are right on this………Blessings to you brother.
geneGene;
Thank you for your response. This really changes how I read John 1:1.
More importantly, the entire debate on how to interpret John 1:1.Steven
Hey Gene and Steve,
This is amazing! While you guys were going back and forth about this, I made a similar post in “The Word and the flesh” thread. Check it out. And I wasn't even aware of your exchange! Just goes to show you that God is working!To all;
I would like all of you to consider John 1:1 in a new light. Jesus said the seed was the Word of God in the parable of the sower. Peter said we have been born again by the incorruptible seed, the word of God. Genesis says God made all things and its “seed” was in itself. Paul said God's eternal power and Godhead may be explained by the things which he has made. When John says in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and was God, might he be saying that the seed of eternal life (the Word) was in God. Christ was begotten of God of his Word, he is the seed of God and also the seed of Abraham. The Word was in God just as an apple's seed is in an apple. It is accurate to say the same is with the apple. I'm seeing that John 1:1 isn't referring to Christ but to God almighty and all that is begotten by him.
Later in the passage the scripture says that he came to his own. Jesus said that they were his Father's and were given to him from his Father. The Father was in the world in Christ Jesus. Jesus said that the Father was in him and he doeth the works.
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