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Sorry for the double post. Web glitch.
I need to say about YHWH (Father) and Y'shua (Son). Ever since before creation, the Father thought to give us His Son. Y'shua was there in the Spirit of YHWH always. The Father esteems the Son. The Son esteems the Father. The Set-apart Spirit is how they can be One. and only through the power of the Spirit.
To deny the Spirit, means that those who deny it differentiate between the Father and the Spirit. The two can never be divided, because they are the same. Therefore there can not be a trinity since trinity doctrine states they the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are three separate persons.
The trinity doctrine is the “other gospel”. If we believe it, then we can not believe understand the rest of His doctrine.
When Y'shua was dead, He had no power to raise Himself. The Father YHWH, through His Spirit (Elohim) raised Him.
When Y'shua Messiah come to judge the living and the dead in the end, He will do what His Father wills Him to do, through the Spirit that flows from the Father. So in essence YHWH judges us through Y'shua.One more thing. The Set-apart Spirit dwelled in some before Y'shua made it possible for all to have His saving grace. To proove this… Think about the “inspired” Words of Scripture being written down for us to learn from. These Words were written by chosen men filled with the Set-apart Spirit of Elohim.
These men were learned in Scripture before it was written. These men knew the Messiah through the “oracles” of Elohim, by YHWH's traditions. The oracles of the Feasts of YHWH of which the Messiah is to fulfill all.
According to trinitarians, the oracles of YHWH were nailed to the cross, and that gives them the “freedom” to do whatever they will. Reality is that the dogma or laws of men (the 4 million laws of the United States of America, Easter, Christmas, St. Valentines Day, St. Patrick's Day) were actually nailed to the cross.
Y'shua made it plain that His Father's laws stay in effect “till heaven and earth pass”.
Only man made traditions can claim otherwise.
I myself trust in YHWH, not in man. Psalm 118:8The only way to believe in the trinity is to deny the Set-apart Spirit of truth.
Laurel;
When you stated that Adam died the same day because a day to the Lord is as a thousand years that was remarkable. Please continue to share the truths God reveals to you.
Quote (Mr. Steve @ Aug. 03 2007,10:20) Laurel; When you stated that Adam died the same day because a day to the Lord is as a thousand years that was remarkable. Please continue to share the truths God reveals to you.
Mr. steve….Laurel is right, God equates 1000 of our years as one day to Him. Thats is why no one ever lived over a thousand years. When God said in the day you eat you will die He was not talking about a 24 hour period, but a thousand year period. God gave 7 thousand years for His Present Earthly plan 6 thousand are nearly over and the Next 1 thousand years will be the thousand year ruel of Christ Jesus and the Saints on the earth . Thats why in Hebrews it satates there remains a Keeping of the Sabbath unto the people of GOD., Its refferencing the thousand year reign on earth which we are looking for to come , it will be a time of peace and prosperity. peace to you…..genePeace and prosperity for whom? What about those the saints are ruling over, it might be like hell for them?
Quote (Mr. Steve @ Aug. 03 2007,11:35) Peace and prosperity for whom? What about those the saints are ruling over, it might be like hell for them?
Dan 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.Mr. Steve….Jesus gave us an example of how to rule and it is not to suppress anyone, but to rule with love, truth, and mercy. The present world rules the way you have described it, not the kingdom of GOD. The only one who get hell are those who give hell, so a man soweth so shall he reap.
to all….I have been reading these threads and seening them go around and around, some give scriptures to suport preexistence and some not to suport it, some give scriptures to suport the trinity and some not to suport it. some give scriptures to support the divinity of Jesus and some not to suport it, and all quoting bibical texts to suport their position.
So how can we ever come to a conclusion with all these counterdiction, we can't unless we look at what we are reading more critically, we need to study more original Greek texts to sort out these errors that are obiviously in the text. It was quite a I opener when I begain to study from a critical stand point, I found our present bible texts have been correptued so many way to push the trinitarian Idology's and modern scholarship well know this. So in my opinion anything that pushes the divinity of Jesus or his preexistence or his idinity as a GOD, I have found is a correption of the texts. And upon futher exploration in the origins of those contrerversal texts the truth will come out. The reason we keep going arouind and around is because of these conterdictions in the texts.Gene,
I think we can study the Hebrew for the most valid writings of Scripture. Greek and Latin are like you say, sometimes written with the understanding of men, through years of being retranslated. It is a good practice to pray before reading Scripture, and ask for the Spirit of truth to be our guide.When I come upon something that dosen't make sense, it means I'm not supposed to knw. After more reading and understanding, these unknown things become known in His time. So therefore I do not use books written by theologians to interpret His Word for me. I wait and let Him do that.
Mr. Steve,
The latest think I am supposed to share is that where Scripture uses the word “image” we as English speaking people should render the word image as imagination, or the place in our mind that does the creative thinking.Elohim also has an imagination and we can see it all around us in His creation.
As human flesh and naturally evil because of sin entering the world, our thoughts, and our imaginations are evil.
The word image appears a lot where Scripture teaches about the beast.
That's all I can tell you for now.
May His peace be upon you,
LaurelQuote (Laurel @ Aug. 03 2007,16:38) Gene,
I think we can study the Hebrew for the most valid writings of Scripture. Greek and Latin are like you say, sometimes written with the understanding of men, through years of being retranslated. It is a good practice to pray before reading Scripture, and ask for the Spirit of truth to be our guide.When I come upon something that dosen't make sense, it means I'm not supposed to knw. After more reading and understanding, these unknown things become known in His time. So therefore I do not use books written by theologians to interpret His Word for me. I wait and let Him do that.
Laurel….I agree that the Hebrew text is the lest tampered with, however i respectively disagree with what you said about not knowing somthing because God might not want you to know about somthing that has been written. Let me explain why.Mark4:11-12, after Jesus gave the parable of the sower his deciples came to him privately as he told them the reason he spoke in parables was to fullfill the prophecys of Issiah, that seeing they see not and hearing they hear not,least they should see and hear and turn and their sins be forgiven them.
This might be a shocker ot some, but Jesus was not trying to save everyone, only those that God was Calling . Then he reexplained the Sower Parable to his deciples. Most people stop there, but Jesus went on to say, ” is a lamp brought to be put under a basket or under a bed?, is it not to be set on a lampstand? ” for there is NOTHING hidden which will NOT BE REVEALED, nor has ANYTHING been Keep SECRET but that it should come to light, Then he say's “If anyone Has ears to hear let him hear.Jesus was encouraging those who have ears to hear to comtinue to shearch, knock, ask, and it will all be revealed to them. This was a private form of encouragement to all who God is working with.
And in Verse 24 He tell us ” take head to what you hear, with the same measure you use, it will be measured to you; and to you who hear, more will be given. For whoever has, to him more will be given, but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him.
We are to use every tool we have to get to the truth of things, I have many times been reading and come across something that made no sense and through delegent study found the truth of the text, and while prayer is a way we should always seek things but i beleive you can pray all you want but if you don't apply yourself to study you are not seeking or knocking you will be given nothing.
God is not mocked, you must apply yourself and that is more then Just asking, for him to show you something. If it were just a matter of asking we could all throw our bibles away an simple ask.The key to sound doctrine is to love the truth, which include standing for the truth. The jews in Jesus day knew Greek but they didn't know Jesus. They crucified him because of fear of losing their place and their nation.
Mr. Steve…well said..”The key to sound doctrine is to love the truth, which include standing for the truth” I totally agree. We must all stand for the TRUTH even if the majority is against it.
But what I don't understand is..why most of the majority of preachers and ministers that are well educated with the WORD oF God confess they believe in the 3 Persons One God? For instance..John Hagee..I've learned alot from his preaching on the book of Revelation and about the End Times. Joel Olsteen, Jesse Duplantis, Kenneth Copland, Creflo Dollar and etc.
To tell you the truth, while growing up I never heard such a doctrine until a few years ago..It seems the Body of Christ is Divided because of this type of Teaching. I guess it just means that we are closer to the END TIMES, we must strive and hold strong to the truth.
In Colossians1… Christ is the visible image of the invisible God for through him God created everything in the heavenly realm and on earth. And through him God reconciled everything to HIMSELF, by means of Christ's blood.
Revelation 3:12 (English-NIV) Jesus said:
Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God.
Never again will he leave it.
I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name.God Bless ..:)
Seeking,
I would surmise that many teachers amd preachers you mentioned don't really think of the Trinity the same way those on this board do. They stay busy teaching and studying other things. I took the Trinity doctrine for granted (and true) for 20 years because I have been in Southern Baptist churches my whole Christian life. The fact of the matter is, you rarely hear the Trinity being brought up in most churches and almost as rarely do you hear people say Jesus is God.
Yet, we are told that the Trinity is foundational to Christian faith. The lack of teaching denies this IMO. And I think that it is not taught because trying to explain it to the masses is not easy. So my assumption is that most take a silent support position.
When I told my former pastor I no longer believed the Trinity, he gave me a book called The Forgotten Trinity. The title says it all. Most people do not really know what it is and most put it to the back of their mind and avoid talking about it.
Hello all, been out of town all week and had to read a couple of pages to catch up. welcome seeking truth, I like several of the things you have posted in your comment and looking foward to hearing more. I would like to thank kejonn for hitting the nail on the head as it were we post here, not to convert one another, though that is possible, but we portray the truth as best we can so that others may see and even help by being tools of the father to sharpen and mold each other. Having said that I would like to jump back in where I left off.
Thanks for the info Kejohnn..
It is true what you said. The preachers I have mentioned never talked about the principle of the Trinity(not that I know of) but I mentioned it because it's in their “Statement of Beliefs”.
You mentioned a book called “The Forgotten Trinity” ..Well I'm one of those people that fits in the category of “no clue” what this book is all about..hahah
So if you don't mind I would appreciate it if you can give me some key points of what this book is all about …Thanks!
Chipwhite THANKS for the welcome greetings! Looking forward to reading you posts as well!
Laurel I now know what version of the bible you may or may not read now. You are not reading a New living translation or a new international version because the term you will surely die that day does not appear in those it only appears as you shall surely die. the king james and the new american standard have the time qualifier in them. although, I do see how this could change the appearance of what I said, So lets use the words or translation your more comfortable with and we will throw that thought in. ( even though I read the new international version alot.) Now I go back to my earlier post that states. If one says the glass is half empty then that person is correct. If someone says the glass is half full it is correct. The truth is in both; the glass is half full and half empty, neither is untrue or changes anything about the nature of the glass: they are just focused on different parts of the glass. King james Gen 2:17 for in the day thou eatest of it thou shalt surely die. New american standard (same verse) for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die. Now you have given me the half full version ( a day is like a thousand years to god and adam lived 930 years) Now the other version of the glass.( notice, I gave myself the half empty part of the glass because you may be thirstier than I am ha ha) According to the scriptures in the translations you quote, could they also not mean that in that very day that you do this you will surely die. [In the rebirth of the spirit talked about in John Chap 3 “flesh gives birth to flesh but Spirit gives birth to spirit” Yashua did not mean when he talked to nicodemus that your spirit would be born again over a long period of time (renewed maybe over a lifetime) The rebirth he is talking about comes upon you as soon as you come up out of the water.] I believe the death adam suffered, he suffered immediately in the spirit. The reason I lean this way is because adam knew wrong from right in a sense he already knew not to eat of the tree and for a long time when he was alone he did not. Now later watching eve, and being there with her, he decided almost like my children he would not eat of it. Instead he would watch eve eat of it and see what happened. Immediately the bible says their eyes were opened. (Their physical eyes were not literally closed before they ate of the fruit so what does this mean? )Their conscience of their flesh was awakend and they were aware of their nakedness. Before they were spritiual and did not worry about their flesh.they were just worried about what the father wanted them to do. through their flesh satan had them to see that:” the fruit was good for food and pleasing to the eye and desirable for gaining wisdom she took some and ate it.” adam being with her and not seeing her croak immediately went ahead and ate of it as well even though he had resisted before. In vrs 8 is where it gets interesting because the Lord God came -walking- in the garden in the cool of the day. And they hid themselves from the -presence- of the Lord God And the Lord God -called out-to them and -said- where art thou? and adam said I heard your -voice- -walking- in the garden and I was afraid because I was naked. How is the only “spirit” God walking and talking and conversing in the garden with adam and eve?? Makes one wonder. will stop here and then move back to my original post after I allow time for responces.You Need to Read this one Nick because little spirit is not life but Only the Holy Spirit is (Again I did not write this stuff)
Hello Just want to say a few words too. Welcome back Chipwhite. Ken and seeking the truth you are so right. I still have a big problem at hand, because our Son who is in the Baptist Church and was Baptized according to scripture there, believes in the trinity doctrine. We cant even talk to Him about it without Him getting horrible angry. We are the majority on this website, but not on the outside world. So we have come out of that system. Thank God for that.
Quote (IM4Truth @ Aug. 02 2007,03:28) t8 You are right! Just sometimes I get so tired of all the arguments and Labeling.
kejonn When I read scriptures like John 17verses 5-7 and others like them shows me that the possibility that Christ existed before creation is real. When a Jehovah W. first brought this to my attention I thought He was crazy. But over time meditating on them and asking God for His Wisdom and guidance i have come to the conclusion that He did preexisted. Just because a J.W. said it, some want to go away from them as far as they can, but all Churches have some truths. Don't you agree?
I agree IM4Truth.We do not judge by labels.
We should look inside people's heart.
Too many people judge by denomination and this leads to the question, which is the correct denomination? This question was never asked in scripture and so I think that it is the wrong question and wrong thinking that leads to the wrong question.
We should treat people as people. It doesn't matter to me what their background is, it is their heart that matters.
Let's face it, in the world there are strongholds. One part of the world is Moslem, another Catholic, and another Hindu.
But is it just bad luck to live in one of these areas because culture is a very powerful force in shaping our lives?
Yet in any place on earth there are people with a heart for God and others who care nothing. Some people have crumbs of truth as their only food and others feast on the gospel, the scriptures, bible tapes, teachers, etc.
Who are we to judge?
God judges men on what they know. That is the point of the gospel, so that men will know. When all men know, the end will come.
Some people with crumbs of truth are greater than others who have access to the best teachers.
A great man is a man who uses ALL that he has for the kingdom.
A man who has 1 talent is greater than a man with 5 talents who uses 2.So yes, judging by labels is futile. If a JW taught you something true, then amen to that.
It is the truth that matters. The truth is more precious than gold, and how much effort would we go to if there was a fortune of gold buried beneath our feet.
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