The Trinity Doctrine

[Laurel]

Gene,
I am aware of a few of there transcriptional errors as well. One great thing about the Set-apart Spirit is that we who received it have a certain descernment to those changes. We can see through the cloud. When I come upon one of these clouds, my mind says, HOLD ON! I can read the entire chapter or the entire Bible and see what is actually covered.

One place I found that is so contradictory to the rest of the Word is thie statement that we should do what the scribes and the Pharisees do because they sit in the seat of Moses. It is obvious to me who studys and hears that this is supposed to say, The scribes and the Pharisees sit on the seat of Moses. Therefore do as he (Moses) says to do, because they (Scribes and Pharisees) say but they do not do.

[NickHassan]

hmmm

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (Laurel @ July 20 2007,04:10)

Gene, I am aware of a few of there transcriptional errors as well. One great thing about the Set-apart Spirit is that we who received it have a certain descernment to those changes. We can see through the cloud. When I come upon one of these clouds, my mind says, HOLD ON! I can read the entire chapter or the entire Bible and see what is actually covered. One place I found that is so contradictory to the rest of the Word is thie statement that we should do what the scribes and the Pharisees do because they sit in the seat of Moses. It is obvious to me who studys and hears that this is supposed to say, The scribes and the Pharisees sit on the seat of Moses. Therefore do as he (Moses) says to do, because they (Scribes and Pharisees) say but they do not do.

laurel…..> you have brought up a very important point,you are right the (set apart spirit) or Holy Spirit is indeed the true teacher ,didn't Jesus say we would all be taught by God. Our enlightment of whats true comes from The Father who gives us the (SET-APART-SPIRIT),. I could not tell you the times I would read somthing and say “that doesn't Make sense”, and go the original Greek text and other sources and found the error's and sometimes whole sentences were added that weren't in the bible at all.

That's why there is so much confusion about the Bible today its because the changes made by scribes pushing their own idologies, and most of them was making Jesus devine by making him God himself.

your are right though to get through the mess we need the (Set-Apart-Spirit) two be in us…..Peace to you laurel

[NickHassan]

Hi L,
We do need to test all things and listen to the Spirit but we should not reject scriptures without more evidence than you have offered here.

[NickHassan]

Hi L,
The Pharisees followed their instincts which told them Christ was a fraud whereas Jesus urged them to search the scriptures which revealed him to be the Messiah. They were instead following their own leaven, the antichrist spirit. We too are told to test the spirits. We test the spirits by the Word and we need the Word to be found more trustworthy than our own instincts to be able do so.

[kejonn]

Nick,

Curious, why have you capitalized “Word” here?

[NickHassan]

Hi KJ,
I respect what is written.

[kejonn]

Nick,

K. Just wondering if you were somehow referring to logos. .

[NickHassan]

Hi KJ,
Well he is the bread of life that we must feed on.

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (kejonn @ July 13 2007,02:48)

Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 12 2007,18:53) Okay…. But my assertion still stands. 1. In John 20:28 Thomas declared Yeshua to be his Lord and God. 2. A Jewish monotheist has only ONE personal God, namely YHWH. 3. It's therefore implausible to think that Thomas had acquired another God. 4. So Yeshua must be true God. Which of the above points is incorrect in your opinion? Blessings Sorry to “butt in” on a post between 2 others, but I had a plausible answer and some further questions from you. All throughout the NT, we see verses that speak of Yeshua being the “image of the invisible God” (image is a likeness or reproduction of form) and Yeshua saying “I and the Father are one”. Yet the Bible also speaks of being one with his body, the church. As I asserted earlier, there was a goal to Yeshua's mission else the story would have merely been about his death, burial, and resurrection. This goal was to provide evidence that he was the Messiah for all people to see and experience (and record for us) but to also reveal God as never before. SIDE NOTE: On the above statement, take a moment to go back and read the Nicene Creed, the one piece of extra-biblical doctrine that firmly established the idea of trinity. Note that it leaves out Yeshua's mission on earth and instead neatly summarizes him by going from birth directly to death and resurrection. It is as if the 33 or so years he spent among us mattered not, it was only about the death, burial and ressurection. This summarily degrades Yeshua's worth as our perfect role-model and makes him only our savior. He is both, and he is Lord. But you can't know Yeshua's life without, well, knowing Yeshua's life! Now, back on track. Just as you and I are to pattern our lives after Yeshua (“Christian” simply means “Christlike”) because he was a man as we are, Yeshua patterned his life after his role-model, the Father. He was able to do this through his by his spiritual birth by the Holy Spirit and his anointing on the day of his baptism. Because he was not born of this world's spirit due to his Holy Spirit paternal side. I think we can see this by reading his communication with Nicodemus in John 3. 1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews; 2 this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.” 3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 “That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 “Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' Yes, Yeshua was born of the flesh on his mother's side but of the Spirit on his Father's. This is where the allegory of rebirth comes in, and it was Yeshua, the only one born of the Spirit from initial conception, who could speak of this. He was saying that we need to be reborn as he was born so that the spirit of the ruler of this world could be replaced with the Spirit of God. Thus, we are reborn. John went out of his way to show that Yeshua was the expression of God, the revealer of God. He started this from the opening verse by referring to pre-earth Yeshua as the Word. That is why John focused on less of his miracles and more of what he communicated to others. John more effectively showed Yeshua's character than the other Gospels. Matthew, Mark, and Luke were like articles, mostly reporting on his actions and sermons. John was a biography, revealing the character and love of Yeshua, who was sent to reveal the character and love of his Father. And then he showed the true love of the Father by dying on the cruel cross of Calvary. “No greater love”. Put yourself back into 1st century shoes. We don't have much record of God revealing Himself in any discernible way in that time period, not like He did through His prophets, judges and kings of the OT. The people of this time were going about their everyday lives, with those who were supposed to represent God caught up in power, self-righteousness, pride, and haughtiness. Were these Pharisees and Sadducees true representatives of God? Not from what we see when Yeshua walked among them. It was time for the people to once more be delivered, but this time it would be for good, and would be for all nations, the final fruition of the promise given to Abraham thousands of years earlier (Gen 22:18). And God wanted to firmly plant into the minds and hearts of people what he was all about. He accomplished this through his only begotten Son, Yeshua. Imagine being one of Yeshua's Apostles, sharing intimate communication with the “image of the invisible God”, the Son of God, the Messiah. Walking with him, serving with him, seeing him wash your feet, watching him change people's lives forever. Who did Peter say he was? Now imagine his death. It was then end of the road for the Apostles. They had not understood what his death signified though he constantly told them. They did not even know he would be raised! Many had already begun to their former lives. Peter had gone fishing, had gone back to his old vocation. And he saw the empty tomb! Little did he know that the story was not over! After all of this time together, of seeing him and coming to know him and love him, after seeing him then die, and then seeing his resurrected body, would it be out of the question for one who had never seen the invisible God to exclaim to the only revelation of God in his life “My Lord and My God!”? Just as the OT people had come to know God through signs, wonders, his chosen representatives, and the “word of the LORD”, so did the 1st century Jews through all of these things in one package: Yeshua. And in this Son of God, Son of Man, they experienced the revelation of God as never before! But now I must in turn ask you this. If the exclamation by Thomas was so significant, so earth-shattering, why was it not recorded anywhere else? Why did Thomas not fall on his face in the presence of Yeshua if he was truly God? Abraham did so in the presence of God, was Thomas greater than he? Yeshua stayed amongst his people for 40 days before he ascended to heaven. Why did Peter not call him “My God”? Why did the Beloved Disciple not call him “My God”? Why did none of the other Apostles call him “My God”? Was Thomas the only enlightened one, or are we making something more out of this exclamation by Thomas than even the Apostles did themselves? Why did Yeshua never make it clear that he was God, even after the resurrection? What could anyone do to him at that point? Forty days among the Apostles and other disciples after his resurrection, and still no claim of being God. Does this not concern you if he is indeed who you say he is? To me, the biggest problem with the Trinity is that it devalues God. It makes him one God with three “faces “. It confuses people as to which “face” they are to worship. Yes, there are those that worshipped Yeshua, but did he ever call for his worship? In fact, he made a very upfront statement that should rock you to your core if you ever decide that worship is to go to Yeshua John 4:23 –  “But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers. Read those words and let them sink in. This is Yeshua speaking, not another man. The Son of God told the woman at the well that true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth. He did not say “worship God” so you had some wiggle room. He said “the Father”. No ifs, ands, or buts. Are you a true worshiper? Do what Yeshua says, not what you think Thomas has done.

Kejonn….> good post i think on this your right…..gene

[kejonn]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 29 2007,18:55)

Hi W,. So how has the trinity theory evolved lately?

Mal 3:6 “For I, the LORD, do not change; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed

Hbr 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

Indeed.

[Is 1:18]

So does the omission of the definite article automatically means the noun “theos” should be interpreted qualitatively? Is that what you are saying?

“No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.” (John 1:18)

No article is supplied with theos in this verse, does this mean John is speaking of “godliness” here?

[Laurel]

Nick,
Remember that to be saveed Messiah said we must be more righteous than the scribes and Pharisees. Then if we have valued the Pharisees with great esteem, how then is it possible to be more righteous then they were.

The Feast of Unleavened Bread is to teach us not to be puffed up like the Pharisees whom added to the perfect laws of Elohim. In doing so the Pharisees made the laws of Elohim of no effect.

Here are some important verses to read:
Mat 23:13 But1161 woe3759 unto you,5213 scribes1122 and2532 Pharisees,5330 hypocrites!5273 for3754 ye shut up2808 the3588 kingdom932 of heaven3772 against1715 men:444 for1063 ye5210 neither3756 go in1525 yourselves, neither3761 suffer863 ye them that are entering1525 to go in.1525

Mat 23:15 Woe3759 unto you,5213 scribes1122 and2532 Pharisees,5330 hypocrites!5273 for3754 ye compass4013 sea2281 and2532 land3584 to make4160 one1520 proselyte,4339 and2532 when3752 he is made,1096 ye make4160 him846 twofold more1362 the child5207 of hell1067 than yourselves.5216

Mat 23:23 Woe3759 unto you,5213 scribes1122 and2532 Pharisees,5330 hypocrites!5273 for1063 ye pay tithe586 of mint2238 and2532 anise432 and2532 cummin,2951 and2532 have omitted863 the3588 weightier926 matters of the3588 law,3551 judgment,2920, (2532) mercy,1656 and2532 faith:4102 these5023 ought1163 ye to have done,4160 and not3361 to leave863 the other2548 undone.863

Mat 15:2 Why1302 do thy4675 disciples3101 transgress3845 the3588 tradition3862 of the3588 elders?4245 for1063 they wash3538 not3756 their848 hands5495 when3752 they eat2068 bread.740
Mar 7:3 For1063 the3588 Pharisees,5330 and2532 all3956 the3588 Jews,2453 except3362 they wash3538 their hands5495 oft,4435 eat2068 not,3756 holding2902 the3588 tradition3862 of the3588 elders.4245

Mat 15:3 But1161 he3588 answered611 and said2036 unto them,846 Why1302 do ye5210 also2532 transgress3845 the3588 commandment1785 of God2316 by1223 your5216 tradition?3862

Mat 15:7 Ye hypocrites,5273 well2573 did Isaiah2268 prophesy4395 of4012 you,5216 saying,3004
Mat 15:8 This3778 people2992 draweth nigh1448 unto me3427 with their848 mouth,4750 and2532 honoreth5091 me3165 with their lips;5491 but1161 their846 heart2588 is568 far4206 from575 me.1700
Mat 15:9 But1161 in vain3155 they do worship4576 me,3165 teaching1321 for doctrines1319 the commandments1778 of men.444

Isa 29:12 And the book5612 is delivered5414 to5921 him that834 is not learned,3045, 3808, 5612 saying,559 Read7121 this,2088 I pray thee:4994 and he saith,559 I am not learned.3045, 3808, 5612
Isa 29:13 Wherefore the Lord136 said,559 Forasmuch3282, 3588 as this2088 people5971 draw near5066 me with their mouth,6310 and with their lips8193 do honor3513 me, but have removed their heart far7368, 3820 from4480 me, and their fear3374 toward854 me is1961 taught3925 by the precept4687 of men:376

Isa 30:1 Woe1945 to the rebellious5637 children,1121 saith5002 the LORD,3068 that take6213 counsel,6098 but not3808 of4480 me; and that cover5258 with a covering,4541 but not3808 of my spirit,7307 that4616 they may add5595 sin2403 to5921 sin:2403

Isa 30:12 Wherefore3651 thus3541 saith559 the Holy One6918 of Israel,3478 Because3282 ye despise3988 this2088 word,1697 and trust982 in oppression6233 and perverseness,3868 and stay8172 thereon:5921
Isa 30:13 Therefore3651 this2088 iniquity5771 shall be1961 to you as a breach6556 ready to fall,5307 swelling out1158 in a high7682 wall,2346 whose834 breaking7667 cometh935 suddenly6597 at an instant.6621

Isa 30:15 For3588 thus3541 saith559 the Lord136 GOD,3069 the Holy One6918 of Israel;3478 In returning7729 and rest5183 shall ye be saved;3467 in quietness8252 and in confidence985 shall be1961 your strength:1369 and ye would14 not.3808

Joh 8:2 And1161 early in the morning3722 he came3854 again3825 into1519 the3588 temple,2411 and2532 all3956 the3588 people2992 came2064 unto4314 him;846 and2532 he sat down,2523 and taught1321 them.846
Joh 8:3 And1161 the3588 scribes1122 and2532 Pharisees5330 brought71 unto4314 him846 a woman1135 taken2638 in1722 adultery;3430 and2532 when they had set2476 her846 in1722 the midst,3319
Joh 8:4 They say3004 unto him,846 Master,1320 this3778 woman1135 was taken2638 in adultery,3431 in the very act.1888
Joh 8:5 Now1161 Moses3475 in1722 the3588 law3551 commanded1781 us,2254 that such5108 should be stoned:3036 but3767 what5101 sayest3004 thou?4771
Joh 8:6 (1161) This5124 they said,3004 tempting3985 him,846 that2443 they might have2192 to accuse2723 him.846 But1161 Jesus2424 stooped2955 down,2736 and with his finger1147 wrote1125 on1519 the3588 ground,1093 as though he heard(4364) them not.(3361)
Joh 8:7 So1161 when5613 they continued1961 asking2065 him,846 he lifted up352 himself, and said2036 unto4314 them,846 He that is without sin361 among you,5216 let him first4413 cast906 a stone3037 at1909 her.846
Joh 8:8 And2532 again3825 he stooped2955 down,2736 and wrote1125 on1519 the3588 ground.1093
Joh 8:9 And1161 they which heard191 it, being(2532) convicted1651 by5259 their own conscience,4893 went out1831 one by one,1527 beginning756 at575 the3588 eldest,4245 even unto2193 the3588 last:2078 and2532 Jesus2424 was left2641 alone,3441 and2532 the3588 woman1135 standing2476 in1722 the midst.3319

[NickHassan]

Hi Laurel,
We must be more righteous but it is not by might nor by power but by the Spirit. We must be born again from above, following our messiah. We are not to attempt to be jews and ascribe to ourselves what was given to them. The OT law applies to those to whom it was given and those outside the Law will perish despite the law. All men everywhere must repent and be reconciled with God in His Son.

[Mr. Steve]

Trinitarians quote John 1:1 to assert that Jesus is God. No where in the verse is the title Son of God or the name of Jesus. The verse is stating that the word was with God. God's word or life was then manifest to us in the person of Jesus Christ

[Is 1:18]

Mr Steve,
Tell me something, what do you think John meant to convey when he wrote: “the Word was with God and the Word was God“?

[Laurel]

Nick, You have missed the entire point. The scribes and Pharisees were not righteous in the eyes of Ya'shua. They wer righteous in their own eyes. Isaiah prophecied of the Pharisees. He said they had the Book, which actually would have been a scroll. They were falsly appointed preists, brought in from Rome steming fromEgypt. They were unlearned in Scripture. They did not have the Set-apart Spirit to guide them. They were only learned by human interpretation. The took the job they were appointed to, then through their own imaginings, felt it necessary to add to the perfect laws, commanding the Jews to wash there hands ritualistically before eating, they commanded how far one could walk on the Sabbath. They commanded that no-one use the Name YHWH, and replaced it with adoni which means lord. They made so many laws and also traditions that the real laws and traditions spelled out in the Torah became of no effect.

These man-made traditions are still in practice to this very day! These man-made laws, caused the Jews to be blind to the purpose of His perfect laws and traditions of the Feasts which are a shadow of good things to come.

Read the OT and see that the Levites were appointed by Elohim to be the priests, not the Pharisees. Read my post over again and note the verses. Go to the book of Isiah and read it in full context. Also read 2 Kings about Reaoboam and Jeraboam, and why Israel was kicked out of Jerusalem. The Jews were too later on, for the same reasons.

There were people who moved into Jerusalem to take over. Loins were attacking those people. The Roman rulers appointed the Pharisees to come in to teach Scripture and pray to the local gods to for the loins to stop eating people.

Long story, but we need to understand it to grasp who the Pharisees were and are today, and what happened to the Jews and to Israel, because by this point they were separated as a Nation and scattered.

One more thing about the Jews. The Jews are no more expected to sacrifice the blood of animals today for their sins any more than those who believe Y'shua is the Messiah. The temple was destroyed and never rebuilt because there is no more continual blood sacrifices of animals since the Messiah fulfilled that part of Scripture.

The Jews and Israel are expected like everyone else to follow the Messiah and obey the commands, same as all of us who want to see the kingdom of heaven.

One law and one right ruling for all.

Exo 12:49 One259 law8451 shall be1961 to him that is homeborn,249 and unto the stranger1616 that sojourneth1481 among8432 you.

Lev 24:22 Ye shall have1961 one259 manner of law,4941 as well1961 for the stranger,1616 as for one of your own country:249 for3588 I589 am the LORD3068 your God.430

Num 15:16 One259 law8451 and one259 manner4941 shall be1961 for you, and for the stranger1616 that sojourneth1481 with854 you.

Num 15:29 Ye shall have1961 one259 law8451 for him that sinneth6213 through ignorance,7684 both for him that is born249 among the children1121 of Israel,3478 and for the stranger1616 that sojourneth1481 among8432 them. (Ignorance is no excuse for breaking His law.)

Mat 5:18 For1063 verily281 I say3004 unto you,5213 Till2193 heaven3772 and2532 earth1093 pass,3928 one1520 jot2503 or2228 one3391 tittle2762 shall in no wise3364 pass3928 from575 the3588 law,3551 till2193 all3956 be fulfilled.1096

[david]

Just a thought:

The Word (Jesus) was WITH “the mighty one” and the word (Jesus) was a mighty one.

(We must remember that the word “God” has a meaning. It's the reason that angels, Satan, human judges, etc could be called gods. Because they were mighty ones…comparitively speaking.)

Because of that stubborn word “with” it is obvious that Jesus is not the one he was with.
They both can be called “God” and not be the same person–at least, they can when we understand what the word “god” means.

In every one case whenever such an idea is presented:

I was with him. (therefore you understand that i”m not “him.”)

“temon” was with “splot.” Even if you don't know what these words are, anyone can still understand that if termon is “with” splot, then “termon” is not splot.

Because of this word “with” it should be obvious that Jesus wasn't the same “God” that he was with. Hence, many Bible's have translated the second “god” as “divine” or “godlike.”

We fail to realize that “god” is a descriptive word, not a name.

George was with americans and George was american.
So, George was “with” something and George was also in that same class of somethings. But George was certainly not THE “americans” that he was with! !

No one would ever think that.

How much time do we have for example. I feel like starting a thread on the word “with.”

In every other any normal instance, when something or someone is “with” something or someone else, they are logically not the one they are with. Yes, they can be spoken of as being in the same class or they can be described with the same word, but the word “with” by it's very meaning does not allow for them to be the same person.

Ted was with the king and ted was [a] king.

Is Ted the first “the king” referred to here? Would anyone anywhere understand it that way?

You have a king named Ted. But you have a super great king of kings named Fred.

Ted was with the king and ted was [a] king.

This is the most obvious, simplest, normal every day understanding of what is being said. If we were to take out all the bias, and hand this sentence to a group of villagers who somehow understood what the word “God” actually means and didn't have a grasp of the Bible though, what would they come up with?

Not the trinity. They would come up with the simple explanation. the Word was WITH God. And the word was a God himself.

[IM4Truth]

Chap You are right, I have used Ephesians 4:4-6 many times to prove the trinity doctrine to be false. It shows that there is only One Faith, one Spirit, one Jesus Christ and ONE GOD AND FATHER WHO IS ABOVE ALL. How much plainer can it get. As far as John 1:1 is concerned. I do believe that Jesus existed before He became man, but He was not greater then the Father. I believe that He was the spoken Word of God, that does not make Him the Almighty God.
Col.1:15 ” Who is the image of the invisible God , the FIRSTBORN of every create.”
Rev. 3:14 “… these things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the BEGINNING of the creation of God
verse 18 shows us that Christ had Preeminence in all, He was the firstborn of all creation and firstborn of the dead.
James Moffatt translation
Prov. 8:22 ” The eternal formed me first of His creation, the first of all His works in the days of old;”
verse 23 “I was fashioned in the earliest ages, from the very first when earth began.
verse 24 ” I was born when there was no abysses, when there were no fountains full of water;”
verse 25 ” ere He sunk the basis of the mountains, ere the hills existed I was born.”
verse 26 ” when earth and fields were not created , not the very first clouds of world.”
verse 27 ” When He set the heavens up, I was there, when He drew the Vault o'er the abyss,”
verse 28 ” when He made the clouds firm overhead, when He fixed the fountains of the deep.'
verse 29 “When He set the boundaries of the sea, when He laid foundations for the earth.”
verse 30 “I was with Him then, His foster child, I was His delight day after day, playing in His presents constantly.”
I think you have to be blind not to see who He was talking about. He was not just a thought. He existed. I also believe that God is a title, many Kings in the old Testament were called Gods.
Ps. 82:1 ” God (the Almighty God) standeth in the congregation of the mighty, He judges among the gods.”
Just want to add on more thing, about the Holy Spirit. It is Gods Holy Spirit, because it says there is only one Holy Spirit which combines us to God and it makes us Brothers and Sisters in Christ. If the Holy Spirit would be another Person, then He would be the Father of Jesus, and we know that is not true.
Peace IM4Truth

[IM4Truth]

Sorry the last post is Mrs.IM4Truth

[Author]

Posts