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Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 16 2007,19:37) Quote (t8 @ July 16 2007,10:06) Is that another Jesus, another God, or both?
Hey t8,
It's you that believes there are two divine beings, not me.“Polytheism is the belief that there is more than one deity”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theism
Hey Is 1:18,
I thought we were henotheists
.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HenotheismHenotheism (Greek εἷς θεός heis theos “one god”) is a term coined by Max Müller, to mean devotion to a single “God” while accepting the existence of other gods. Müller stated that henotheism means “monotheism in principle and a polytheism in fact.”
In fact, here ya go:
Although most Christians adamantly label themselves as monotheists, some argue that Christianity is properly a form of henotheism. Most forms of Christianity include the belief in a Christian Godhead consisting of God the Father, God the Son (Jesus), and God the Holy Spirit, with God the Father as the “source” (Greek arche) of the other two. However, Trinitarian Christians strongly reject the belief that the Trinity represents three distinct gods. Rather, they describe the three persons as participating in a single divine “substance”, thus being “in essence” one God. The Council of Nicaea (325) affirmed that God was one substance (Greek ousia, or “essence”) expressed in three subsistences (Greek hypostases, often rendered “persons”).
Quote Although most Christians adamantly label themselves as monotheists, some argue that Christianity is properly a form of henotheism. Most forms of Christianity include the belief in a Christian Godhead consisting of God the Father, God the Son (Jesus), and God the Holy Spirit, with God the Father as the “source” (Greek arche) of the other two. However, Trinitarian Christians strongly reject the belief that the Trinity represents three distinct gods. Rather, they describe the three persons as participating in a single divine “substance”, thus being “in essence” one God. The Council of Nicaea (325) affirmed that God was one substance (Greek ousia, or “essence”) expressed in three subsistences (Greek hypostases, often rendered “persons”).
Where does this quote come from?Never mind, found it.
“Although most Christians adamantly label themselves as monotheists, some argue that Christianity is properly a form of henotheism…..”
Because some people argue it, that establishes it as a fact?
Some people still argue the Earth is flat.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 16 2007,20:38) Never mind, found it. “Although most Christians adamantly label themselves as monotheists, some argue that Christianity is properly a form of henotheism…..”
Because some people argue it, that establishes it as a fact?
Some people still argue the Earth is flat.
We have definitive proof that the world is round. We even have neat pictures from space to wow the kiddies.Perhaps you're making the wrong analogy. Only the ignorant think that the earth is flat, the informed and intelligent know the truth. Anyone with a fair level of intelligence knows that calling the members of the Trinity “persons” will not cut the mustard to retain a monotheistic God.
I would say modelists and Oneness folks have the step-up on you. The may be more wrong biblically but at least they have a stronger claim to monotheism. Ask ANY person from a religion with a true monotheistic God, like Muslims or Jews, if they consider a triune God a monotheistic entity and you may get a wink at best.
Check out what I got from the Southern Baptist beliefs (http://www.sbc.net/aboutus/basicbeliefs.asp):
God
There is one and only one living and true God. …The eternal God reveals Himself to us as Father, Son and Holy Spirit, with distinct personal attributes, but without division of nature, essence, or being.God the Father
God as Father reigns with providential care over His universe, His creatures, and the flow of the stream of human history according to the purposes of His grace. …God is Father in truth to those who become children of God through faith in Jesus Christ.God the Son
Christ is the eternal Son of God. In His incarnation as Jesus Christ, He was conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary. …He honored the divine law by His personal obedience, and in His death on the cross, He made provision for the redemption of men from sin.God the Holy Spirit
The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God. …He exalts Christ. He convicts of sin, of righteousness and of judgment. …He enlightens and empowers the believer and the church in worship, evangelism, and service.Is the above what you believe? In their opening statement, they sound like modalists, but then they go on to call each member “God the”. They went from a modalist monotheism to a seeming pure polytheism in just so many words.
By the way, out of curiosity, what are angels? They are not man, and with the way Trinitarians throw around the word “divine” as belonging only to God, they are not divine. So what are they? Just spiritual beings? Can they die?
Quote (kejonn @ July 15 2007,10:21) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 15 2007,07:25) K True. Trinitarians are being stoned for calling Jesus God!
Wha? Are you trying to say Bob Marley was a Trinitarian?
kejonn Thats funny! So is Bob Marley getting stones thrown at him?
Scripture please?
Its seems to me that those who believe that a mere man “Layed the foundation of the earth” (Heb 1:10) and by him and for him all things were made and without this mere man was not anything made that was made, (John 1:3) and that by this mere man all things are upheld by the “Word of HIS power” (Heb 1:3), and “By HIM” all things consist, (Col 1:16,17), that those who believe that this Jesus is not God in the flesh according to John 1:1 and 20:28, is in the same camp with Bob Barley!
I wonder what they are smoking?
You sure do work really hard at bringing our Lord and God down to earth making him a mere man!
He is the Lord from heaven the Word/God in the flesh!
The one who was pierced!
You should believe the scriptures my friend!
Have you considered what all things are?
God the Father turns *all* of his “Authority” (Matt 28:18) and “Power” Heb 1:3 and Col 1:17, over to a mere man?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 17 2007,04:56) God the Father turns *all* of his “Authority” (Matt 28:18) and “Power” Heb 1:3 and Col 1:17, over to a mere man?
No. Not a mere man. But the Father would turn his power over (for a limited time ONLY) to his biological Son.Most adults find themselves, in the twilight of their lives, turning their “powers” over to their children or a guardian. I took care of both of my parents before they died (and my in-laws, for that matter). I had “power” given to me in the form of legal actions taken by my parents.
Would my parents have turned over their “power” to a stranger? Probably not. But a SON? You bet.
Now if this “Son” is but an extention of who you are, how does this pan out, WJ? In Trinitarian mode – the Son is the 2nd person of God. If God is to turn “power” over to the 2nd person of himself, isn't that kinda like shifting a gear, rather than trusting another person (other than yourself) to run things? In this way, giving “power” to Jesus doesn't seem like a big deal to me……God was just shifting gears for a time?
Quote (Not3in1 @ July 17 2007,05:29) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 17 2007,04:56) God the Father turns *all* of his “Authority” (Matt 28:18) and “Power” Heb 1:3 and Col 1:17, over to a mere man?
No. Not a mere man. But the Father would turn his power over (for a limited time ONLY) to his biological Son.Most adults find themselves, in the twilight of their lives, turning their “powers” over to their children or a guardian. I took care of both of my parents before they died (and my in-laws, for that matter). I had “power” given to me in the form of legal actions taken by my parents.
Would my parents have turned over their “power” to a stranger? Probably not. But a SON? You bet.
Now if this “Son” is but an extention of who you are, how does this pan out, WJ? In Trinitarian mode – the Son is the 2nd person of God. If God is to turn “power” over to the 2nd person of himself, isn't that kinda like shifting a gear, rather than trusting another person (other than yourself) to run things? In this way, giving “power” to Jesus doesn't seem like a big deal to me……God was just shifting gears for a time?
not3I dont think you understand the implications of God giving all of his “Authority and power” to a mere man.
Jesus was not a Son untill he took on the likeness of sinfull flesh! Question is what was he before he came in the flesh?
I believe what the scriptures say…
Jn 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=1375
Phil 2
But since you dont believe he preexisted and you dont believe he is just a mere man, I am not sure what kinda of being you think he is?
Not quite God and not quite man?
Quote (Not3in1 @ July 17 2007,05:29) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 17 2007,04:56) God the Father turns *all* of his “Authority” (Matt 28:18) and “Power” Heb 1:3 and Col 1:17, over to a mere man?
No. Not a mere man. But the Father would turn his power over (for a limited time ONLY) to his biological Son.Most adults find themselves, in the twilight of their lives, turning their “powers” over to their children or a guardian. I took care of both of my parents before they died (and my in-laws, for that matter). I had “power” given to me in the form of legal actions taken by my parents.
Would my parents have turned over their “power” to a stranger? Probably not. But a SON? You bet.
Now if this “Son” is but an extention of who you are, how does this pan out, WJ? In Trinitarian mode – the Son is the 2nd person of God. If God is to turn “power” over to the 2nd person of himself, isn't that kinda like shifting a gear, rather than trusting another person (other than yourself) to run things? In this way, giving “power” to Jesus doesn't seem like a big deal to me……God was just shifting gears for a time?
Not3So do you believe Jesus will have no authority or power when he does this?
Will he be just a mere puppet on a string?
Hi Is 1.18,
You say“Hey t8,
It's you that believes there are two divine beings, not me.“Polytheism is the belief that there is more than one deity””
You and others spend so much time here trying to prove Christ is a deity, even YHWH Himself.
You then attempt to justify such a stance by incorporating trinity theory as a means of resolving it.
You cannot resolve scripture by adding human doctrines to it.
Any accusations against others of polytheism would seem ironic.WJ: Jesus said he came down from heaven. Jesus said what and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend to heaven where he was before? John 17:5, Christ in praying to the Father speaks of the glory that he had with the Father before the world was. John 1 says he was in the world and the world was made by him and the world knew him not. Hebrews 1 states the Father created all things by Jesus Christ. In every verse a relationship is indicated by Christ with his Father before creation. In many verses Christ states that he was sent from the Father, which is in Heaven. Christ also states that no man knows the Father but the Son. Christ had a pre-existent relationship with the Father that was pleasing to God to the point that God decided to glorify himself through Christ in salvation to the world.
Mr. Steve
Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 16 2007,19:37) Quote (t8 @ July 16 2007,10:06) Is that another Jesus, another God, or both?
Hey t8,
It's you that believes there are two divine beings, not me.“Polytheism is the belief that there is more than one deity”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theism
No that is what you believe that I believe.I believe that there is one God and Father of all who has divine nature and shares his nature.
If we partake in divine nature are we God?
If we will be like Christ so that he calls us brothers, are we God?
Is a brother of like kind?You need to consider these things before making the judgement that you have.
Nowhere is it implied that beings who partake in divine nature are God. In fact scripture says the opposite because it is written that we can partake in divine nature.
Surely this proves that God is generous and that we can be true sons, just as Jesus is the son.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 16 2007,20:38) Some people still argue the Earth is flat.
Some people still argue that God is a substance that contains 3 persons. Some people argue that there is one God the Father, son, and Spirit.Quote Because some people argue it, that establishes it as a fact? I agree, it isn't necessarily a fact.
1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.The above is fact.
Scripture is more valid than what some argue.
Quote (Not3in1 @ July 17 2007,05:29) But the Father would turn his power over (for a limited time ONLY) to his biological Son.
So Jesus is a physical son.Yet there are other sons that must be greater than him because spirit is greater than flesh.
Job 1:6
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.Job 38:7
When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?John 6:63
The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.1 Corinthians 15:44
it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.Who is greater, a spirit son or a physical son?
What answer do you (or unitarians) have regarding that?I will post this also in the Preexistence discussion so you can answer there.
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=1348Quote (t8 @ July 17 2007,10:42) What answer do you (or unitarians) have regarding that?
t8, you are not a “Unitarian”? What brand are ye?Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 17 2007,04:56) Thats funny! So is Bob Marley getting stones thrown at him?
Scripture please?
No, but he was in the state of “being stoned”. No scripture though, just could not resist.Quote Its seems to me that those who believe that a mere man “Layed the foundation of the earth” (Heb 1:10) and by him and for him all things were made and without this mere man was not anything made that was made, (John 1:3) and that by this mere man all things are upheld by the “Word of HIS power” (Heb 1:3), and “By HIM” all things consist, (Col 1:16,17), that those who believe that this Jesus is not God in the flesh according to John 1:1 and 20:28, is in the same camp with Bob Barley! I wonder what they are smoking?
Bob Barley? He invent beer or sumtin'?
Hey, you saw yourself where the scripture said he “emptied himself”. What was he here on earth if he didn't lay aside his privileges?
Quote You sure do work really hard at bringing our Lord and God down to earth making him a mere man! He is the Lord from heaven the Word/God in the flesh!
The one who was pierced!
Yeah, Yeshua was pierced, not YHWH. That scripture you are using is translated different ways it seems. Here are some that would disagree with your viewpointZechariah 22:10
BBE: And I will send down on the family of David and on the people of Jerusalem the spirit of grace and of prayer; and their eyes will be turned to the one who was wounded by their hands: and they will be weeping for him as for an only son, and their grief for him will be bitter, like the grief of one sorrowing for his oldest son.JPS: And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplication; and they shall look unto Me because they have thrust him through; and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his first-born.
NSRV: And I will pour out a spirit of compassion and supplication on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, so that, when they look on the one whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn.
Besides, who would have thought in the time that this was written that anyone could pierce YHWH and mourn for his a child? Does that even begin to make sense to you? Think like an OT Jew for a moment.
Also, why would the verse go from “Me” to “him” without some sort of transition? “Look on me” to “mourn for Him”? Uh, yeah. Is God moving from first to third person all of a sudden. Nah. Translation or copyist error.
Quote You should believe the scriptures my friend! Have you considered what all things are?
God the Father turns *all* of his “Authority” (Matt 28:18) and “Power” Heb 1:3 and Col 1:17, over to a mere man?
I do believe scripture. I believe 1 Cor 8:6, how about you? And what of John 17:3?Finally, who am I to question God? He makes the rules, not me.
t8….>I believe I agree with what Airus for the most part said was right, I believe that nothing existed from eternity but the Father alone, and every thing was created and brought forth by Him alone. all things other than Him are created and had a begining and that includes Jesus also.as well as us.
I dont know if that brands me as an Arian or unitarian or what ever.I just believe that true…..geneQuote (Nick Hassan @ July 17 2007,11:24) Hi not3,
Do followers of Jesus need other brands?
I was teasing……It seems that you and t8 like to put people into categories and denominations, and so I thought I would ask him which one he considered himself?
Wrong again not3,
We prefer to strip away the blinds
around these unnatural human groupings
that hold the insecure and the fearful
and make men grasp onto the Son and his teachings.Here is another comparison for people:
We, as believers are of the body of Christ. We are equal. Christ, part of that same body, is the head. If Yeshua is part of the body of Christ, are we then equal to him? No!
Yeshua said “I and the Father are one.” So they must both be God, right? Well, I just showed that we are one with Christ in the body, and that we are not equal to Christ. Why then can you assume that the Father and Yeshua are equal if we cannot assume equality with Yeshua?
Commons:
* Us, spirit and flesh — Yeshua, spirit and flesh — not equal? We are not firstborn of the Spirit.
* The Father, spirit alone, no flesh — Yeshua, spirit and flesh — not equal! His humanity marks the separation.
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