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Gene I agree with your last Post. The word (son) became 100% Man. So you believe that God cannot change a God-Nature into Human Nature. But can change Human into a Spirit Body. But the reason Jesus did not Sin is, because He already had God's Mind in Him,and He also knew what was at stake. Had He sinned, He would had stayed in the grave, and so would we.
One more scripture just came to mind
John 17:5 ” And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
Peace Mrs.IM4Trutht8…..> i think Jesus is where he is because of his obedience to God, by giving up his will to the point of and including death, what more could you ask of a person then to pour out his (soul) unto death, you can't give no more than that.
And because he did that God elevated him to where he is now, that's why Jesus is worthy of the position the Father Gave him….geneT8,
I'll freely admit that there are still many things I do not know about the relationship between Yeshua and The Father. I guess my struggle with is knowing what he had versus what he has. We still do not know what glory he had before he came to earth so we don't know if it was restored or not.
Many people say that it was necessary for Yeshua to be God for his death to have saving power. I cannot agree. I cannot see the value of the sacrifice in someone who only has to be temporarily reduced. As the thread I started says, 33 years compared with eternity is nothing. Would it really be a sacrifice? That is why I struggle with it.
Hi KJ,
Heb 10
“Hebrews 12:2
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.”iM4TRUTH…i believe Jesus only prexisted in the plan and will of God.
I believe he himself spoke (GOD”S) word's but the word's were not his, just as he said. So he could not be (the word)
its one thing to speak God's word's it quite another to be them.I believe that he know the glory that God had created him for and thats what he ment when he said “the glory I had with you before the world was. He understood he was part of that preordained plan and it glorfied him beside the Father.
just what i think thats all…….gene
Kejonn…..>how would it behove him to be made or created like his brothers if there was no gain to him. I think he did gain by what he did. Just my thoughts…..gene
Quote (t8 @ July 16 2007,10:06) To Is. Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 15 2007,10:25) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 15 2007,10:22) I cannot follow a god/man-can you?
Yes I can. What you can/cannot follow is of no significance to the rest of humanity….
Is that another Jesus, another God, or both?A god man?
God is not a man that he should lie.
Man is not God either.If you are referring to god in a qualitative sense, then you might have a case, but you denied that possibility in another forum.
Jesus is the son of God. We will be like him and like the angels. That is what scripture says.
t8,Jesus is man only, right?
We are man only.
If we will be like Jesus……what will change about us?You say that Jesus is the son of God and we will be like him. In what way will be like him?
Scripture tells us that we will be adopted, is this what you mean? I've brought this idea to the boards recently, but no one has commented on it…….why are WE adopted, but Jesus already belongs? Thanks.
Hi not3,
We follow him.
Our vessel too should be filled with the Spirit of God, our mind should be trained by the Word to be the mind of Christ and when we are raised we will have a new heavenly body like to his.33 years on planet earth in a human body living with an ignorant human race and being persecuted then beaten and nailed to a cross and drinking vinegar before he died is a huge sacrifice in my opinion.
Can we have eternal life? Yes.
Is our life here not even 1 second in eternity?
Is our life to be a sacrifice too?
Is it hard? I think so, but not as hard as what our lord went through.I think the hardest thing Yeshua had to do was come here in the first place. When you have been in God's presence in glory, and then have to come here, it is much worse than anyone of us having to live the remainder of their lives in a rubbish tip in the Philippines as some people there do.
Of course there are great benefits to sacrifice. I think one of the great benefits is when you have been tested and then you receive your inheritance, what a joy it would be. Even greater than being born perfect and not knowing pain and suffering. When you haven't had something you appreciate it all the more when it is given to you.
not3in1…Welcome back, hope you had a good vacation.
now about adoption…i believe Jesus as well as us are all adopted childern of God. The reason i believe this is because it's impossible for God to totaly reproduce himself, think what that person would have to be to a True God, so the next best thing is to create beings and co-habit with them.
which God does with his holy spirit, he yokes with us this way and is ever present in us. and to be given a name as son and Daughters it requires an adopltion process and it's the same with Jesus…..just my take…..geneJust a thought, and didn't want to make a new thread for it: some of the most contentious verses in debating the Trinity are
Isaiah 43:11 – “I, even I, am the LORD, And there is no savior besides Me.
Hosea 13:4 – Yet I have been the LORD your God since the land of Egypt; And you were not to know any god except Me, For there is no savior besides Me.
Of course we know how the Trinitarians would answer these, but has anyone considered that the OT view of savior meant something totally different than we know it as? Maybe this has been discussed before.
Yeshua as savior offers eternal life and the freedom from the bondage of sin. In the OT, YHWH as savior was the deliverer of His people from bondage to other nations. I don't know that thoughts of eternal life were predominantly on the minds of the Jewish people of the OT.
Many times we explain these verse away by saying that Yeshua was given the authority to be savior via his death on the cross, but what if it is simply a difference in definition of the word?
Thoughts?
Quote (kejonn @ July 16 2007,11:29) Many people say that it was necessary for Yeshua to be God for his death to have saving power. I cannot agree. I cannot see the value of the sacrifice in someone who only has to be temporarily reduced.
Hi kejonn.I agree. Yeshua wasn't God, he is the son of that God and was the Word that was with God.
But I think it was a big sacrifice. Could you imagine an American president emptying himself of all his power and living in poverty in a third world country in order to preach the gospel and heal and feed people, all the while suffering persecution from a government much lower than the one he use to represent as well as allowing the enemies that hate him so much the chance to test and tempt him.
What Jesus did was much greater. He came from glory with the Father, to a fallen world inhabited by a fallen race who hated him and killed him and some of his associates. He also died and went to hades.
Think about how tempting it would have been to call the angels to his side or say “I want out/beam me up “, yet he just took it all for us. He knew that he was our hope. He even taught that we should offer the other cheek when hit.
Is 33 years enough? Is 20 years enough? How much is enough?
Luke 9:41
“O unbelieving and perverse generation,” Jesus replied, “how long shall I stay with you and put up with you? Bring your son here.”Quote (t8 @ July 16 2007,12:07) 33 years on planet earth in a human body living with an ignorant human race and being persecuted then beaten and nailed to a cross and drinking vinegar before he died is a huge sacrifice in my opinion. Can we have eternal life? Yes.
Is our life here not even 1 second in eternity?
Is our life to be a sacrifice too?
Is it hard? I think so, but not as hard as what our lord went through.I think the hardest thing Yeshua had to do was come here in the first place. When you have been in God's presence in glory, and then have to come here, it is much worse than anyone of us having to live the remainder of their lives in a rubbish tip in the Philippines as some people there do.
Of course there are great benefits to sacrifice. I think one of the great benefits is when you have been tested and then you receive your inheritance, what a joy it would be. Even greater than being born perfect and not knowing pain and suffering. When you haven't had something you appreciate it all the more when it is given to you.
t8,This is a very thought provoking post.
When Jesus was 8 years old, for example, did he know that he was on lowly earth compared to the glorious presence of the Father *where he had been*?
As humans we are motivated by the prize, the unknown reward – the surprise! As kids we would often hear from our parents, “If your good, I'll bring you back a surprise!” Oh, we would be good alright – we wanted the reward. We didn't know what the reward would be……but we wanted it, and so the appropriate behavior would be a promise.
Jesus had joy set before him. This joy certainly wasn't the cross – the ending of his earthly life [which was the sacrifice]. It was the reward or the prize of being with his Father.
Some say, however, that Jesus had already been with the Father; he preexisted OR he was God, himself. What kind of surprise or reward would this be?
I believe that the following passages lend themselves to assert that God will not share his glory [as God] with anyone else, including his Son. And that the glory Jesus had was not *given* to him until he was sat down at the right hand of God.
John 17:5
“And now, Father, glorify me IN YOUR PRESENCE with the glory I had WITH YOU before the world began.”*This passage does not say: Glorify me AGAIN in your presence. I believe that this verse implies Jesus is “in the presence” of the Father for the first time when he is exhaulted to his right hand – not before or previously. The glory he had “with” the Father was the glory he had as the promised Messiah in plan (for the Son had not been born yet).
John 1:1
“In the beginning was the Word and the Word was WITH God and the Word was God.”*The Son was “with” God as a future child is “with” his Father. Jesus was the arm of the Lord that was to be revealed. Jesus was hidden in God as arrows are compared to sons hidden in a quiver – see Isaiah.
John 17:24
“Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see MY GLORY, the glory YOU HAVE GIVEN ME because you loved me before the creation of the world.”*To me, this passage shows Jesus' humanity in that he wants his boys to see him – to know that he is glorified – to be a part of what the Father has done for him. Sort of like, “See! See! I'm somebody special!” Ha! I could be wrong, but it reads this way to me. Also, this passage shows that the glory Jesus has is “given” to him. What “glory” does Jesus have? The “glory” of a SON! The Son was loved before the creation of the world – Nick thinks it's impossible to “love” something or someone that we are not in possession of or can physically know (i;e; Jesus had to be preexistent for the Father to “love” him before the creation of the world), I disagree. I loved my children before they were born. The scripture does not say he loved Jesus physically or even in person! So this is a preferance to believe either theology according to our personal choice, but scripture lends itself both ways, imo.
John 1:14
“…..We have seen HIS [Jesus'] GLORY, the glory of the ONE AND ONLY SON, who came from the Father…..”*Jesus has glory alright, but it is not the same glory as God, himself, and it does not appear to be a glory that he already had possessed?
Isaiah 48:11
“….I will not yield MY GLORY to another.”*God has glory as God. Jesus has glory as the Son. Two “glories” – God has always been and so his glory is from eternity – Jesus became the Son at conception – so I am left to assume his glory as the son had a beginning.
However, if you are able to show me where JESUS is already alive and receiving love and attention from the Father in heaven – prior to his birth on earth – then I will have to revisit my ideas. Further, if you are able to show me where JESUS had a meeting with the Father and they decided that JESUS should come to earth (as Nick suggests), then I most certainly will need to review my theology. Thanks.
not3in1…>i beleve also that Jesus did not prexist as a being before his birth. when the voice of the Father came out and said this day I have begotten you, he was at that point born of spirit and became the son of God and was adopted into the Family of God, because it's impossible for God to reproduce himself, but he can indwell someone by his Spirit.
Jesus was preordained but was manifested (brought forth) in our time just as the Apostle Peter said.
another reason I think Jesus was adopted a son was where it say's I shall be unto Him a Father and he shall be unto Me a Son. it apears to be a formal relationship just like ours are but the difference between us and the rest of God's creation is He come's to indwell us forever by ataching to us by holy spirit, we are ever yoked to The Father and this gives us a much closer relationship then the rest of God's creation, And it's what the Father wanted along. and Jesus is the first to achieve that relationship and the last will be just like him.What the Father did for Jesus he is going to do for us we are family of the house hold of our Father God.
Hi Gene,
Can you imagine the agony Abraham felt as he realized that God wanted him to sacrifice his son? I don't know if you have any children, Gene, but can you imagine if God told you to sacrifice one of them? What pain that would bring into your heart – what agony!
Now imagine how God felt when he saw Jesus being sacrificed for us; the agony he must have felt to watch his Son suffer.
My point is, just as Isaac was the biological son of Abraham and was required of him – so is Jesus the biological son of God and was required of Him.
1 John 4:9
“This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him.”Did God have *other* sons in heaven that he could have “sent”? Sure. So what was so special about Jesus? What was so special about Isaac? They were beloved, biological sons. And any parent knows the agony it is to watch a child of theirs suffer. My kids know that whenever they are sick, they can always count on me saying, “I wish it was me instead of you.” because I can't stand to watch my children suffer. God showed us his love by enduring just that.
Now because Jesus is a biological son of God – he does not need to be adopted. In fact, scripture does not say that Jesus will be adopted. Scripture says that we will be adopted. While Jesus is already an “heir” – we will *become* “co-heirs” with Jesus. While Moses was a prophet over God's house, Jesus has more honor because he is a Son over God's house.
not 2in1….I have 4 childern all grown and yes it would greave me and has greived me to see them suffer, and not only them but all the childern and people around the world.
but me and you are in a lot of cases are helpless and can only fell sorrow in some cases.
but did God fell this way about Jesus . in Isaiah 53:10 we read “yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him, He has put him to grief. When You make His Soul an offering for sin,. I use to have a hard time with that one and I think there is another one some where that said it plaesed God if he would pour out his soul unto death.
until i realized what He meant , I realized it pleased God because of Jesus' Faith and trust in the Father.and that what the Father was pleased with.
and I use to wonder why didn't God Just forgive us our sin's without the death of Jesus, He could have, but them His Justice would have been compromised, so it had to be that way, to justify us we truly were redemed by a great price.
hopefully some day this will all be over and we can all live in peace with each other.
well i gess ill go to bed now peace to you sister….gene
Jesus was God's sacrifice for our sin's He was a lamb that God presented .
!8 Hello Again! I still cant understand when it says in Col. 1:15 ” He is the image of the invisible God, the first born over all creation. And in Rev. 3:14 “These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the beginning of the creation of God.
Also in Gen. it says let us make man in our image.
Does not all this show that the Word existed as a Person and not just as a thought that was in Gods Plan?
Please give me your understanding about this.
Mrs.IM4TruthThanks, brother Gene. I agree with you…….someday this will all be over and we will be in Paradise together. Oh! What a day that will be.
Gene We too have 4 children, and when I see what goes on in this world, I cant wait til all is over. With all the Filth that you have excess to on the Computer,it makes me sick. We have Grandchildren that are Teenagers and I just worry about them so much. And all I can do is Pray for all.
I have enjoyed to have everybody on this Forum to exchange scripture with, as long as we don't call each other names.
Kejonn I know what you mean about the Rye Study Bible, My Husband has one too. The footnotes are I don't know what to call them, but the are not right in my eyes.
Peace Mrs.IM4TruthQuote (t8 @ July 16 2007,10:06) Is that another Jesus, another God, or both?
Hey t8,
It's you that believes there are two divine beings, not me.“Polytheism is the belief that there is more than one deity”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theism
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