The Trinity Doctrine

[charity]

Random

A possible covenant God made with the fathers..Gen 1:26 ¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

And the next verse..the day the zeal of the Lord God preformed THIS the seed and offspring of David..Gen 1:27  So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
For God spoke to the fathers first before time, Rom 1Cr 15:46 Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural;, and that which was natural received only a promise, until the word was made flesh?
15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises [made] unto the fathers:   Rom 15:12  And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.
That Christ should be the first fruits of them that slept. Mal 3:18  Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not. Mal 4:1 ¶ For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

Gen 1:28  And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

[Is 1:18]

Quote (kejonn @ July 15 2007,14:38)

Sure about that? Does he have the power to take it for himself, or must he be given these things? The receiver is at the mercy of the giver.

It's moot. Whether he took it or was given it the fact remains that what was emptied has now been restored.

Quote

Yes, given. GIVEN. I can give you power of attorney, but I can turn around and take it away. So then, who has the real power and authority?

Yeshua has been given “all power” (Matthew 28:18). ALL power. Are you saying that it's somehow conditional? The text declares it is absolute. BTW, you're making the Father out to be a little capricious here. He is not.

Quote

“Given” is the keyword for today. The receiver is nothing without the giver.

Nevertheless, Yeshua has “ALL power”. Not some of it, not most of it, ALL of it. How then could it be argued that the reciever “is nothing”? I would be more guarded with what I say about Yeshua given that He is going to judge every careless word….(Matthew 12:36-37).

Quote

In fact, He is Lord of all: And this is a problem how?

Name something that Yeshua is not Lord of? Everything is under His authority. Everything. Excepting the Father. But we've discussed that already today.

Quote

He is to honoured in exactly the same way as the Father: We already covered this. It is the Father's will that this should be, it is not the Son's to take.

Nevertheless the Father desires the Son to honoured as He is honoured (even as = the same manner as). Do you do this?

Quote

He has the name above all names: Hey, check it out. “God highly exalted him”. Did Yeshua exalt himself then? I can just see Yeshua patting himself on the back. But we can see the Father exalting His Son.

Regardless, what exactly is the name above ALL names? And does the fact that He has the highest name in existence suggest to you that he is somehow less than when He emptied Himself?

Quote

And He is upholding the “all things” by the word of His power Forgot to include Heb 1:2. God made him “heir to all things”. The source still stands.

Irrespective of this, it's pretty clear that Yeshua is not lacking in power if he is able to sustain/preserve “ALL THINGS”.

Does this suggest to you that there is a limitation to His power? that what was emptied has not been fully restored?, that is what is at issue in this discussion.

Quote

Oh really? Acts 7:59 59They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!” John 14:6 – Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. Yes, really.

This doesn't really explain the dilemma you're faced with. In Ecclesiastes 12:6-7 we're explicitly told that the Spirit [of man] will return to God who gave it. The giver and reciever of spirits is unmistakably defined as God, leaving absolutely no room for an intermediary 'reciever'. According to Stephen in Acts 7:59 the recipient (and by implication, the giver) is Yeshua….

Quote

John 5:19 – Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner. – I'll just let that verse speak for itself. The other way to look at this verse is that Yeshua expressed that He can do nothing except that God which God the Father does, which is exactly the kind of language we would expect to see if He was God in the flesh. Know of any other men this could be said of? Sure. Other than the “Son” part, we can say the same of any of the prior prophets of God. Are we to include them into the Godhead then? I don't have time to count all of them, nor do I know the word that would describe such a number that makes up God. I stop counting at Octarianism.

Oh? The prophets only spoke as God would speak….all the time? Was every single word Moses or Elijah uttered that which the LORD also speaks? I don't think so. To my mind they were fallible men, who sinned, probably frequently – and language wasn't excluded.

Quote

John 12:32 “And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.” AHA! Your trinitarian “truth” falls to the floor. John 6:44 says “Father” not merely God. If you say that Yeshua does the same you are not believing that Yeshua is God, you believe Yeshua is the Father. This is NOT Trinitarianist thinking. Careful.

Point taken. Although, it's easy to find instances in the Bible where both the Father and Son are said to work in unison – John 5:17, John 14:26 cf. John 16:7, John 14:23…..

[Is 1:18]

Quote (kejonn @ July 15 2007,16:32)

Nick, What I was referring to is that I have seen Is 1:18 making posts like “I see you are on, would you reply”. I'm not restricting anyone, I was merely asking Is 1:18 to refrain from pressuring people for answers just because he saw they were logged on. From his posts, I highly respect Is 1:18. He supports his beliefs and defends them admirably. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. He is one of many on here I can truly call brother based on what I have seen from him. It matters little that we disagree on things such as these. I just had that one nitpick with him   .

You have actually been quite complimentary here. Thanks, I was actually quite touched by what you wrote. I likewise respect you kejonn, I especially appreciate the fact that you seem to enjoy hard debate without losing the plot when it becomes heated, as it invariably does.

Blessings

[NickHassan]

Hi Is 1.18,

You say
“The giver and reciever of spirits is unmistakably defined as God, leaving absolutely no room for an intermediary 'reciever'. According to Stephen in Acts 7:59 the recipient (and by implication, the giver) is Yeshua…”

No room for an intermediary?
God sent one.

1Tim 2
” 5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. “

Lord of till his work is complete and he hands the kingdom back to his God and Father.

1Cor 15
” 23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet”.
.
.

[IM4Truth]

Nick That was not a good answer for me, because wisdom expressed as order and harmony ibue?
all these abbreviation don't compute with me. Pleas use correct English so I can understand what you are talking about. Do you believe that those verses refer to Wisdom?
Mrs.IM4Truth

[kejonn]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 15 2007,17:03)

Yeshua declared he was God in Rev 1:17, 2:9 and 22:13. Do you disagree with Him?

Let's just visit those verses, shall we?

• Revelation 1:17 – When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, “Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last,

  Nope, no claim to be God. Just said he is the first and the last. Yes, so did God, but there are two possibilities here. 1) Yeshua existed in some form with God in eternity. So he can make the same claim as they have co-existed. Note that “the first and the last” is not a title. 2) Could have been a reference to 1 Cor 15:45. This fits with the part of 1:18 that says “and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore”. Man was dead in sins because of Adam and now Man has access to eternal live through Christ. Since God made Man of flesh and Spirit (Gen 2:17) in the beginning, and Yeshua was the union of Holy Spirit, Man was restored to the place God originally intended for them. Yeshua is then the ultimate Man, the only one to never sin, a conqueror where Adam could not be. Let me ask you, why did God decided to finish creation after making Man? Do you fail to see the significance of who Man is in God's eyes? He created us for a purpose. And if Man does not hold such prominence, why bother with a new earth when a new heaven would be sufficient?

  One final note on this: Can Yeshua lay claim to the title “Lord of Heaven and Earth”? This has been given to the Father alone.

• Revelation 2:8 – “And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: The first and the last, who was dead, and has come to life, says this:

  You said 2:9 but I assumed you mean 2:8. In any case, see the words about 1:17 above. Note that once more there is the reference about death and life. Could be as simple as the cross and resurrection but I think it means so much more. I also note that verse 2:11 has the phrase “He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death”. Yeshua, who overcame sin, the only Man to do so perfectly and completely.

• Revelation 22:13 – “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

  The Alpha and Omega. This is God's not Yeshua's. I've already walked through the verses leading to this one but I think you want to hinge your belief on the preceding verse saying “I am coming quickly”. But lets go back to 22:6-7

  Revelation 22:6-7 – And he said to me, “These words are faithful and true”; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place. “And behold, I am coming quickly. Blessed is he who heeds the words of the prophecy of this book.”

  Whoops, seems Yeshua's is not the only one to say that after all, hmmm? Plus, verse 12 also says “My reward is with Me”. This refers back to Isaiah 40:10 and 62:11, both about YHWH. Say, what –or rather who — is the reward that will be with God? I think you know.

Love God, Love People
kejonn

[kejonn]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 15 2007,17:14)

pS Because Christ is never said to be created I do not agree in fact but the principle is there.

No, he is not created, but he was/is Man, which is a created being. Only Adam and Eve were created, the rest of us were born, We are still creature though.

[kejonn]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 15 2007,17:10)

kejonn….> in the original greek text it say's in order for them to believe (the) lie. this means it wasen't just any LIE but a Paticular Lie, because of the definit article (the). and verse 4…in the Greek states..so that he in the temple of God to sit down or takes his seat, displaying himself that he is God. i ask who is now seated in the temple or throne of God being displayed a God. is it not Jesus himself and is he not being displayed as very God. this displayed of him being a God did Not come from him or the apostles, it was slowley introduced over time and came to completion at the council of neceia in 325 A.D. it”s the false Image of Jesus being very God himself, that I believe makes up the man of sin Paul was talking about . Kejonn get a Greek interlinear and check it out. i believe the man of sin is not a real person, but (THE LIE )that Jesus is very God himself. And it was starting to form at the time of the original apostles and held this false teaching back as long as they could, but after their deaths it took root until it became a the full nblown doctrine of the trinity. think about and see what you think…..peace to you…gene

I'll look into it further Gene. Thanks for the pointers. It is worthy of investigation.

[kejonn]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 15 2007,17:39)

Nick…God said He alone created all thing both in heaven and earth. I know this might be hard to accept but I believe Jesus was born and created by God Just like we are, I do not he preexixted in any form or essence, but was only in the plan of God and was created at the proper time. I have yet to see any proof otherwise. Jesus was created or made just like we are. and truly brothers and sisters of him. peace …..gene

Only problem with this are the various verses where Yeshua speaks of existing before. The words that are used would not fit properly with a plan. I can't look them all up now, but here is one

John 17:5 – “Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

Does a plan have glory? Would a plan call itself “I”?

[GeneBalthrop]

kejonn ….> yes a plan can be glorieous and if it's about a person and that person is talking He can personlize it.

Jesus was God's glorieous plan in the beginning of His creation, God the Father always wanted a Father son relationship with His creation of man.

Jesus was the First to achieve that Goal and is exactly like the last to achieve it. Hence first and last.

we must not seperate our likeness of the annointed Jesus our brother. who is the first born into this Father, son relationship, which is our destiny also.

the only difference between Jesus and us is where the Father placed Him in His plan and nothing more.

I enjoy your postes kejonn…..gene

[GeneBalthrop]

Mrs.im4truth…..No i do not believe Jesus was the word, I believe Jesus spoke (God's word's) to us, Just like the prophets did. remember it say's God spoke to us through the prophets, has in these later days spoken to us (THROUGH) a son. remember when Jesus said the word's he was speaking weren't his, well if the word's weren't his how could he (Be) the word.

the captialization of the word (Word) in John 1;1 was in my opinion not suposed to be there., all Greek word were originally written in captial letters so trinitarian translators forced the text by captializing the word (word) changeing it simple meanning into a person.

I believe it should read ,: “in the beginning was the word(expressed intellegence )and the word ( expressed intellegence) was with God and WAS God. If John was talking about Jesus he would simply said Jesus or son. But that was not in the text . And where it say's the word became Flesh, the word became means came to be, in others the word came to be in Flesh and that Flesh it came to be in was Jesus, but because it was in Jesus that does not make himself the word. Jesus expressed this by saying the word he was speaking weren't his. why would he say that if he himself was the word.

and the other part of what you were talking was wisdom which is am atrebute of God The Father,.ws could say that about anyone, for instance we could say that person is kind or plesent or smart or wise or intellegent, these are all atrebutes of a pereon and God has them also. peace to you …gene

[kejonn]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 15 2007,21:15)

False dichotomy. Do we cease to be human when our spirit leaves our body? No. A change from the physical to the spiritual does not alter ontology.

You like that word (ontology). I understand that it was used heavily by Greek philosophers. Many say the Trinity derived from pagan ideals, perhaps even from Greek philosophy. It would make sense that you use a Greek word to describe Greek paganism. But that is neither here nor there.

Do we cease to be human? Define human. Our fleshly bodies return to the dust. Yeshua's never did. It is fairly certain his body was different than before his death, but again, the body did not return to the dust. In fact

Acts 2:31 – he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that HE WAS NEITHER ABANDONED TO HADES, NOR DID His flesh SUFFER DECAY.

Our spirits are not our bodies, but Yeshua ascended back to Heaven as a Man in all ways, flesh and spirit. He and Elijah seem to have much in common. Both prophets, both chosen to bring God to the people, both ascended to Heaven in flesh form.

So what do we have then: God – invisible, Yeshua – visible. God – spirit alone, Yeshua – flesh with spirit indwelling.

Quote

Also, we are spiritual beings, with a body. We are body, soul and spirit. Our body does not define our very being, it is our temporary “tent”.

Yes but it seems Yeshua packed his tent up and took it with him . We don't read anywhere when the disciples saw Yeshua ascend “Look, he left his body behind”. Nope, went with him.

Quote

You mean at the resurrection? Yes. Unless you can tell me where the body went to? There is no dilemma, Yeshua, like us was a spiritual being with a human body. But His essence was divine (Heb 1:3). Ours is not.

I see the word “divine” thrown around alot, as if only God alone is divine. And thereby, Yeshua must be God. Are you willing to hang your theology on this word?

1 Samuel 28:12-13 – The king said to her, “Do not be afraid; but what do you see?” And the woman said to Saul, “I see a divine being coming up out of the earth.” He said to her, “What is his form?” And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is wrapped with a robe ” And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground and did homage.

And we will be partakers of the divine nature

2 Peter 1:4 – For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.

Are we not born again?

Quote

Quote Automatically, “God is spirit” conflicts with your theology since you say Yeshua is God. Which “truth” is still true? I assert that YHWH can put on a body of flesh and not cease to be YHWH. This would not be impossible to YHWH. Do you contest this? If so, on what grounds? Where is the dilemma here?

No dilemma unless I use some of your tactics. That is, show me where YHWH ever put on flesh. I agree that He can do all, but does He choose to? There is a difference.

So I at least have you answer on one of my questions on my 3rd challenge. You believe that Father, Son, Holy Ghost = YHWH.

But there again, we are back to the matter of YHWH's immortality. He cannot die, Yeshua did. While you can claim the body (the “tent”) died, you must then turn around and say that the verses in Revelation that have Yeshua talking about being dead and then being alive cannot mean the death on the cross because that was just a body, not Yeshua's essence. Your views start to conflict.

Quote

I had to read this a few times in order to understand what your point was. I think I have a handle on it. Kejonn, Yeshua's body was visible yes, but hypostasis (essence/substance) is nothing to do with external appearance. You can't see human essence, for instance, it's inside us. BTW, YHWH has been seen many times: Third post down

I don't have time to read that thread but I've seen similar approaches. I'm assuming then if you believe YHWH has been seen, then you make Yeshua out to be a liar. Your God, and you call him a liar. Yikes.

Should I employ your method on the verses where YHWH has supposedly been seen? Do you have proof that it was not in the form of an angel or some other form? No, the verses do not say. By your reasoning (“Tell us where said he wasn't God”), lack of evidence is evidence. “Insert opinion here”. All is valid.

No.

Quote

I was thinking that Yeshua was a man. Where did I miss the scripture that said God was a man? You won't find it in the OT, it hadn't happaned in their era. You can find it in the NT though (John 1:1, 14; John 19:37; Acts 20:28; Col 2:9; Phil 2:5-8, Rev 1:17, 2;9, 22:13).

None of those verse say God is a man. I see the ones that say the Word was God, and that the Word became flesh. There are verses that also say that Yeshua laid aside his privileges (emptied himself) to become Man. Laid aside. There is no indication that ALL privileges were regained. Many were but no proof of all.

Some think that the sacrifice that Yeshua made was to walk amongst us for 33 years and then die. That was awesome and life-giving — we hinge our very lives on it — but there have been all sorts of martyrs in this world. Most of them died cruel deaths as well. None of them was the Son of God, but they still died for a cause nonetheless.

No, the true sacrifice was that Yeshua laid aside his privileges FOREVER. He had to do this to become Man. Read the last chapter of Job for the analogy. Job's fortunes were restored, and his blessings were greater than before. But the sons and daughters that were his in the 1st chapter were gone, they were not restored. He had more, but his first born was gone, as were all of his original children.

If the sacrifice was just a temporary laying aside of privileges, what would be the value? What is 33 years and one death to an eternal being? He had to become Man, and Man is what he will remain forever. Glorified Man, Son of God, sitting at the right hand of the Father, but still Man nonetheless.

Quote

Quote “God is spirit”, Yeshua is flesh. I guess you are saying flesh=spirit? How does that line up with Gen 6:3? As I said before, because humans that have flesh it does not follow that we are not spiritual beings, we have a spirit, we are spiritual beings within a tent of flesh.

In this regards, you equate Yeshua with Man. Good. So he is.

Quote

2 Corinthians 5:1-4 1For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven, 3inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked. 4For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life.

As I stated before, it seems Yeshua packed his tent up and took it with him.

Quote

Are you saying that because the angel is mentioned in verse 6 he therefore speaks in verses 6-13? Is the angel “coming quickly” in you opinion? Is the angel the “Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end”?? This strikes me as a very strange view. To me the speaker in verse 7-13 is manifestly not an angel, the declarations are utterly incompatible with what an angel would dare to say. I can't believe you cant see that. BTW, in verse 16 we also learn that that the “God of the spirits of the prophets” that sends the angel is none other than Yeshua.

As Jeff Foxworthy used to say, “Here's your sign”. God is speaking through the angel. How many times did God do that? Many. I guess I'll have to hold your hand on each and every verse. It is painful but sometimes we have to lend guidance to those who only see what they want rather than what is written.

• 6 And he said to me, “These words are faithful and true”; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place. – Here's our starting place. Angel of the God of Spirits and profits, the mouthpiece of God. They were no longer in Heaven but were on a mountain overlooking the new Jerusalem (Rev 21:10). Now hold on to this.
• 7 “And behold, I am coming quickly. Blessed is he who heeds the words of the prophecy of this book.” – God speaking through His angel. Not the angel speaking on his own behalf. Are you assuming that these words came out of thin air (they can but no indication of this)? They were no longer in the throneroom of God, but overlooking the New Jerusalem.
• 8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these things. – If Yeshua was speaking here, why did John not fall at his feet? Instead he fell at the feet of the angel sent by God. This will become clear in a moment.
• 9 But he said to me, “Do not do that. I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book. Worship God.” – gentle rebuke. The angel is sent as God's mouthpiece but he was not sent to receive worship. Oh, and note he says “Worship God”. Not “worship Yeshua”. Of course, you believe they are one and the same, but the book of Revelation seems to separate them nicely in every place when the words “God” “Jesus” “Father” or “Lamb” are used.
• 10 And he said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. – “And he said”. He is the angel sent by God in verse 6. He is the one who just told John “Do not do that”.
• 11 “Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy. – The angel still speaks.
• 12 “Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. – the angel is still speaking it seems. He likes to talk .
• 13 “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.” – finally, the angel sent by God closes out his speech.
• 14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city. – John is writing here. No speech from God or Yeshua, via angel or directly. The angel from God stopped speaking for God in verse 13.
• 15 Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying. – John still. Getting ready to close Revelation out.
• 16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.” – This is Yeshua's last words for all of Revelation. Yeshua has been addressing the churches since the first chapters of Revelation. He is bringing in the conclusion.

Quote

I think I have already addressed these points. It's implausible to me that an angel is speaking in verse 12-13, that would make an angel the “Alpha and Omega” who is “coming quickly”, notions that are overtly unscriptural and to be frank, just plain silly.

–sigh–The angel is God's mouthpiece. If you have trouble with angels saying things that only God can say, then what do you think of these?

Judges 2:1 – Now the angel of the LORD came up from Gilgal to Bochim And he said, “I brought you up out of Egypt and led you into the land which I have sworn to your fathers; and I said, 'I will never break My covenant with you, and as for you, you shall make no covenant with the inhabitants of this land; you shall tear down their altars.' But you have not obeyed Me; what is this you have done? Therefore I also said, 'I will not drive them out before you; but they will become as thorns in your sides and their gods will be a snare to you.'”

Genesis 22:11-12 – But the angel of the LORD called to him from heaven and said, “Abraham, Abraham!” And he said, “Here I am.” He said, “Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.”

Genesis 22:15-18 – Then the angel of the LORD called to Abraham a second time from heaven, and said, “By Myself I have sworn, declares the LORD, because you have done this thing and have not withheld your son, your only son, indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies. In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed,
because you have obeyed My voice.”

Genesis 31:11-13 – “Then the angel of God said to me in the dream, 'Jacob,' and I said, 'Here I am.' He said, 'Lift up now your eyes and see that all the male goats which are mating are striped, speckled, and mottled; for I have seen all that Laban has been doing to you. I am the God of Bethel, where you anointed a pillar, where you made a vow to Me; now arise, leave this land, and return to the land of your birth.'”

If you think it is silly and unscriptural that God can speak through angels, then you have a problem with scripture it seems.

[kejonn]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 15 2007,22:09)

Quote (kejonn @ July 15 2007,14:38) Sure about that? Does he have the power to take it for himself, or must he be given these things? The receiver is at the mercy of the giver. It's moot. Whether he took it or was given it the fact remains that what was emptied has now been restored.

Scripture please. Show where all that was is once more.

Quote

Yeshua has been given “all power” (Matthew 28:18). ALL power. Are you saying that it's somehow conditional? The text declares it is absolute. BTW, you're making the Father out to be a little capricious here. He is not.

No, I'm merely pointing out who has the power. I well know that the Father will not take what Has given back. The point is to show you that Yeshua has no power of himself, it all emanates from the Father. The Father is still over all, and the source of all.

Quote

Nevertheless, Yeshua has “ALL power”. Not some of it, not most of it, ALL of it. How then could it be argued that the reciever “is nothing”? I would be more guarded with what I say about Yeshua given that He is going to judge every careless word….(Matthew 12:36-37).

Your advice should flow in your own ears. Again, I ask you to show me where ALL power has been given to him. All authority is not enough because authority != all power.

Quote

In fact, He is Lord of all: And this is a problem how?

Name something that Yeshua is not Lord of? Everything is under His authority. Everything. Excepting the Father. But we've discussed that already today.[/quote]
Yep, you said it, everyone but is Father. The Father still is over all with Yeshua 2nd in command. We both agree (I think) that this has little bearing on Yeshua's “divinity” so it should be dropped.

Quote

Quote He is to honoured in exactly the same way as the Father: We already covered this. It is the Father's will that this should be, it is not the Son's to take. Nevertheless the Father desires the Son to honoured as He is honoured (even as = the same manner as). Do you do this?

Yes, but I don't forget the Father and think that merely honoring the Son will cover both. I fear that many forget the Father and focus solely on Yeshua. The verse says “even as they honor the Father” not “in the place of the Father”. Even Yeshua honors his Father (John 8:49). As a Christian, I seek to emulate Christ.

Quote

Regardless, what exactly is the name above ALL names? And does the fact that He has the highest name in existence suggest to you that he is somehow less than when He emptied Himself?

Yes, considering he had no name before he came to Earth. We still do not know the true name of the Father, we merely call Him that. Names are for Man, not God. We use names to identify ourselves to others, God needs no such identification. By saying his name is above all names, he is 2nd to his Father. I have no problem with that. Why does the Holy Spirit not have a name? Surely people do not think “Holy Spirit” is the name of it, but all our earthly minds can use as an identifier.

Quote

Forgot to include Heb 1:2. God made him “heir to all things”. The source still stands.

Irrespective of this, it's pretty clear that Yeshua is not lacking in power if he is able to sustain/preserve “ALL THINGS”.[/quote]
You sure like to shrug off that everything comes from the Father. Yeshua lacks in power because he is not the source of that power. That is the power he lacks, to be the source of his own power.

Quote

This doesn't really explain the dilemma you're faced with. In Ecclesiastes 12:6-7 we're explicitly told that the Spirit [of man] will return to God who gave it. The giver and reciever of spirits is unmistakably defined as God, leaving absolutely no room for an intermediary 'reciever'. According to Stephen in Acts 7:59 the recipient (and by implication, the giver) is Yeshua….

I think you are mistaken. There is absolutely no language in your reference that would disallow Yeshua being the path for men's spirits to come back to God. In the end, it is through the Son and to the Father.

Quote

Oh? The prophets only spoke as God would speak….all the time? Was every single word Moses or Elijah uttered that which the LORD also speaks? I don't think so. To my mind they were fallible men, who sinned, probably frequently – and language wasn't excluded.

Not what I said, but it goes with what you implied. Does the Father eat? I know Yeshua had to eat because of his human body, but did he do it because he saw his Father doing it? Yeshua also wept, did he see his Father crying? Where do we see God crying? I could probably find other things he did that the Father has not been shown to do, but now you are the one hinting that Yeshua was just a mindless meat-puppet.

Quote

Quote AHA! Your trinitarian “truth” falls to the floor. John 6:44 says “Father” not merely God. If you say that Yeshua does the same you are not believing that Yeshua is God, you believe Yeshua is the Father. This is NOT Trinitarianist thinking. Careful. Point taken. Although, it's easy to find instances in the Bible where both the Father and Son are said to work in unison – John 5:17, John 14:26 cf. John 16:7, John 14:23…..

Cool, it was just a jab anyways. Yes the Father and Son have our best interests in mind, whether we think so or not .

[kejonn]

Quote (IM4Truth @ July 15 2007,07:49)

Kejonn I respect you and will not write this in Your #3 Challenge, so I will answer your Question here to tell you what the trinity teaches. I am well qualified to do so, since we were in the Cath. Church from Birth in 1938 til 1984. I taught 4 children that doctrine. the trinity is 3 persons in 1 God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit All are co-equal in Power. the trinity doctrine is also sometimes called “Hypostasies” it still means 3Gods in 1God and they call it a Mystery. Nowhere in your Bible can you find the Word trinity. Mrs.IM4Truth

Sorry, did not mean to not respond. Thanks for the reply.

Yes, the Trinity is not found in the Bible, but it is not the word we should be concerned with. Its too easy to deny it if we merely say the word does not exist in the Bible. Yet. Who knows what new Bible versions may come .

[IM4Truth]

Gen. I am sorry, but I don't agree with you on that Col. 1:15 “Who was the Image of the invisible God the first born of every creature” Is he not talking about His Son/Jesus” and again verse 18 “for by Him were all things created, that are in Heaven (Angels) and that are in earth, visible and invisible…. and in Rev. 3:14 “These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD. Is this not Jesus? So He will have Imminence in all. He was the First Born of all creatures and the first born of the Death. Once more if God did not create Him before, then He couldn't have created the angels. But He created all, that includes the angels.

I feel these are pretty clear scriptures.
Peace Mrs.IM4Truth

[IM4Truth]

Kejonn Yes, I am not that concerned if the word trinity is not in the Bible I just put that in. And you are right maybe in future modern versions of the Bible, they might add that. We have other scriptures that prove that the trinity is false, not to upset others, as far as I can see. Everybody has to prove it to themselves, I cant do it for them.
Peace Mrs.M4Truth

[kejonn]

Mrs. IM4,
I have a Ryrie Study Bible (NASB). Reading through several study notes, Ryrie is a diehard Trinitarian. Whenever the remotest opportunity to show the Trinity comes up, you'll find entries about it. When a verse that plainly states the distinct separation, such as 1 Cor 8:6, not a single word is written. Makes me chuckle really.

[Proclaimer]

To Is.

Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 15 2007,10:25)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 15 2007,10:22) I cannot follow a god/man-can you? Yes I can. What you can/cannot follow is of no significance to the rest of humanity….

Is that another Jesus, another God, or both?

A god man?

God is not a man that he should lie.
Man is not God either.

If you are referring to god in a qualitative sense, then you might have a case, but you denied that possibility in another forum.

Jesus is the son of God. We will be like him and like the angels. That is what scripture says.

[GeneBalthrop]

i agree with T8…>if Jesus was not a full 100% man, with the same limitations we have his sacrifice was piont less it would be a sham. It was not God or a God man that died on that cross it was a total 100% man and nothing else. All this confusion is caused by false trinitarian Idology. And the idea that God layed down is His life and Died is pure stupidity.

If God were to die all things would cease to live, because it say's God uphold's all thing by the power of HIS MIGHT. It was not a God that died on that cross it was a Man. and it wasn't a God who said “my God my God, hast thought forsaken me. it was a 100% man and nothing more that died and Jesus did not raise himself it was God who raised that dead man. back to life. …gene

[Proclaimer]

To kejonn.

I read your posts on this page and I think I agree with all that you said except for one thing.

You say that Christ made the sacrifice to become lesser forever.

But I understand from scripture that he returned to the glory that he had before with the Father. I understand that he has been given all and has authority over all (except God as you pointed out).

In heaven he is honoured as the lamb who was slain and was worthy to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!”

Jesus is also called the wisdom and power of God.

Revelation 5:12
In a loud voice they sang: “Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!”

1 Corinthians 1:24
but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

I think if anything he gained. After all, God is generous is he not?

[Author]

Posts