The Trinity Doctrine

[NickHassan]

Hi Is 1.18,
If he did not was it just something that later students decided about him?

[Is 1:18]

Yeshua declared he was God in Rev 1:17, 2:9 and 22:13.

Do you disagree with Him?

[NickHassan]

Hi Is 1.18,
I am sure you agree Christ was not self serving and is in fact ever a humble servant of God?

[NickHassan]

Hi Is 1.18,
So he only later told John in veiled language?
Funny he said nothing about it when he was on earth.

[NickHassan]

Hi Is 1.18,
So when he came to Capernaum in Lk 4 and spoke about his anointed mission he forgot to tell them he here to tell them he was God?

14And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about.

15And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all.

16And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

17And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,

18The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

20And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.

21And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

22And all bare him witness, and wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth. And they said, Is not this Joseph's son?

23And he said unto them, Ye will surely say unto me this proverb, Physician, heal thyself: whatsoever we have heard done in Capernaum, do also here in thy country.

24And he said, Verily I say unto you, No prophet is accepted in his own country.

25But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land;

26But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto Sarepta, a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow.

27And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Eliseus the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian.

28And all they in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath,

29And rose up, and thrust him out of the city, and led him unto the brow of the hill whereon their city was built, that they might cast him down headlong.

30But he passing through the midst of them went his way,

31And came down to Capernaum, a city of Galilee, and taught them on the sabbath days.

32And they were astonished at his doctrine: for his word was with power.

[GeneBalthrop]

kejonn….> in the original greek text it say's in order for them to believe (the) lie. this means it wasen't just any LIE but a Paticular Lie, because of the definit article (the).

and verse 4…in the Greek states..so that he in the temple of God to sit down or takes his seat, displaying himself that he is God.

i ask who is now seated in the temple or throne of God being displayed a God. is it not Jesus himself and is he not being displayed as very God.
this displayed of him being a God did Not come from him or the apostles, it was slowley introduced over time and came to completion at the council of neceia in 325 A.D.

it”s the false Image of Jesus being very God himself, that I believe makes up the man of sin Paul was talking about .
Kejonn get a Greek interlinear and check it out. i believe the man of sin is not a real person, but (THE LIE )that Jesus is very God himself.

And it was starting to form at the time of the original apostles and held this false teaching back as long as they could, but after their deaths it took root until it became a the full nblown doctrine of the trinity.

think about and see what you think…..peace to you…gene

[NickHassan]

Hi Gene,
Does Rom 1 fit?
21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

[NickHassan]

pS Because Christ is never said to be created I do not agree in fact but the principle is there.

[GeneBalthrop]

Nick…. yes it can because man always trying to turn created things into a God and they made many man God's after their own imaginations the Greeks were famous for this. what better way could satan cause God to turn from us then for us to create another God. what caused God to kick Isreal and Judha out of the land , was it not Idolotary and did not John end one of his letters with little childern keep yourself from Idols. he know it was going to be a matter of idolatry that would infect the church….Peace to you nick…gene.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 15 2007,13:16)

Since we agree that the Father is greater as to His position than Yeshua the issue we have to resolve is – 'is the Father a greater being'? If you examine the application of the word “greater” (Gr. Meizon) by Gospel writers, it's manifestly apparent that this word isn't used to denote ontological greatness. I did a literary search of the Gospels for the word greater/greatest, discounting the “the Father is greater than I” verses. Here are the eight texts I found where the word “Meizon” is applied to a person or people, and is used in a comparative way:- Matthew 11:11 “Truly I say to you, among those born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the Baptist! Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. (cf. Luke 7:28) Does this verse mean that JTB is superior in his nature than the rest of humanity? Matthew 18:1-4 1At that time the disciples came to Jesus and said, “Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?” 2And He called a child to Himself and set him before them, 3and said, “Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. 4″Whoever then humbles himself as this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. Were the disciples enquiring as to who will be the greatest being here? Matthew 23:10-12 10″Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ. 11″But the greatest among you shall be your servant. 12″Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled; and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted. Was Yeshua speaking of ontological superiority here? Mark 9:33-35 33They came to Capernaum; and when He was in the house, He began to question them, “What were you discussing on the way?” 34But they kept silent, for on the way they had discussed with one another which of them was the greatest. 35Sitting down, He called the twelve and said to them, “If anyone wants to be first, he shall be last of all and servant of all.”(cf. Luke 9:46f) Is a servant superior in his ontology that those he serves? Luke 22:24-27 24And there arose also a dispute among them as to which one of them was regarded to be greatest. 25And He said to them, “The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who have authority over them are called 'Benefactors.' 26″But it is not this way with you, but the one who is the greatest among you must become like the youngest, and the leader like the servant. 27″For who is greater, the one who reclines at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who reclines at the table? But I am among you as the one who serves. As above. John 8:53 “Surely You are not greater than our father Abraham, who died? The prophets died too; whom do You make Yourself out to be?” Were the Pharisees charging Yeshua with claiming ontological superiority to Abraham here? John 13:16 “Truly, truly, I say to you, a slave is not greater than his master, nor is one who is sent greater than the one who sent him. Is a slave greater in the nature of his being than the master? John 15:20 “Remember the word that I said to you, ' A slave is not greater than his master ' If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also. As above. What’s evident here is that not once is “Meizon” used to demonstrate a superior nature or a higher category of being. In every single instance it denotes a disparity in authority/position/rank. That appears to be way the word is used by the Gospel writers. And so, to me, it seems logical that Yeshua was not speaking of His inferior ontology relative to the Father when He said he was “Meizon” than Him, but rather His lower position. The Father did not empty Himself and take on flesh, the Logos did. The Logos did not send the Father, the Father sent the Logos. The Son is subservient to His Father but he is not a lesser being. Which makes sense in light of Hebrews 1:3 which tells us that Yeshua is, as to His essence/substance, an exact representation of the Father. Blessings

Is 1:18

Good points brother.

[GeneBalthrop]

Nick…God said He alone created all thing both in heaven and earth. I know this might be hard to accept but I believe Jesus was born and created by God Just like we are, I do not he preexixted in any form or essence, but was only in the plan of God and was created at the proper time. I have yet to see any proof otherwise. Jesus was created or made just like we are. and truly brothers and sisters of him.
peace …..gene

[NickHassan]

Hi Gene,
Scripture says God begat him [ps2].
God really was his father.

So your opiniion versus scripture?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 15 2007,13:49)

Quote (kejonn @ July 15 2007,12:58) Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 15 2007,11:05) kejonn, Can you tell us in what sense the Father was/is “greater” than the Son? In every way! But that's too easy of an answer. The next easiest answer is that the Son would not exist without the Father. That's too easy as well. How about this then: the Father is the source of all, the Son is the vessel or instrument to carry it everything out. You can flip the switch all you want, but the light won't come on if the power bill hasn't been paid. Therefore, nothing is greater than the source of all. Matthew 11:27 – “All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.” – The Son has everything the Father has given him. But everything had to come from the Father, it was not merely the Son's to take. Matthew 13:15 – But He answered and said, “Every plant which My heavenly Father did not plant shall be uprooted.” – The Father is the source. The Son is not. Matthew 24:36 – “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.” – Hmmm, The Father, omniscient. The Son, not. Matthew 26:29 – “But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father's kingdom.” – Yeshua and YHWH share the Kingdom, but Yeshua acknowledges who the Kingdom truly belongs to. My house is my son's house, but I'm the one who has his name on the title. Matthew 26:53 – “Or do you think that I cannot appeal to My Father, and He will at once put at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels?” – The Son has to ask for these things, he cannot do them without his Father. The Father is the source. Luke 22:42 – saying, “Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done.” – The Son has his own ideas and will, but he knows whose will is over all. Everything happens according to the will of the Father. Luke 23:46 – And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, “Father, INTO YOUR HANDS I COMMIT MY SPIRIT.” Having said this, He breathed His last. – Yeshua shows us who is the keeper of our spirit. It is not him, it is the Father. Luke 24:49 – “And behold, I am sending forth the promise of My Father upon you; but you are to stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high.” – The promises have always come from the Father. Yeshua can carry them out, but they are still promises of the Father. John 5:19 – Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner. – I'll just let that verse speak for itself. John 6:44 – “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. – The Father draws. 'Nuff said. John 15:1 – “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. – without the vinedresser, the vine will eventually perish. Of course, the Father will not allow this, but He does have that power Kejonn, all of these can be explained by Phil 2:5-8. Ho Logos existed in the form of God but emptied Himself and took on the form of a bondservant. However, it's quite patent that He is no longer empty, remember this: He was given ALL authority on Heaven and Earth: Matthew 28:18 18And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. (It’s interesting that Yeshua made this statement after some were doubtful about worshipping Him…..) He is Lord of both the dead and living: Romans 14:9 9For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living. (also refer Col 2:10) In fact, He is Lord of all: Acts 10:36 36″The word which He sent to the sons of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ (He is Lord of all)— (also refer Rom 10:12) He is to honoured in exactly the same way as the Father: John 5:22-23 22″For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, 23so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. He has the name above all names: Philippians 2:9 9For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, And He is upholding the “all things” by the word of His power Hebrews 1:3 3And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high (also refer Col 1:17) Hebrews 1:3 is particularly interesting. It affirms that Yeshua is upholding (sustaining) “all things” by the power of HIS word (something that is ascribed to YHWH in Nehemiah 9:6). Clearly if Yeshua were a created “thing” He would be sustaining/preserving His own existence. But He is not a thing, but the Creator of things (John 1:3, Col 1:16, Heb 1:10). Quote Luke 23:46 – And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, “Father, INTO YOUR HANDS I COMMIT MY SPIRIT.” Having said this, He breathed His last. – Yeshua shows us who is the keeper of our spirit. It is not him, it is the Father. Oh really? Acts 7:59 59They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!” cf. Ecclesiastes 12:6-7 “Remember your Creator before the silver cord is loosed, Or the golden bowl is broken…Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it. Curious. Quote John 5:19 – Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner. – I'll just let that verse speak for itself. The other way to look at this verse is that Yes hua expressed that He can do nothing except that God which God the Father does, which is exactly the kind of language we would expect to see if He was God in the flesh. Know of any other men this could be said of? Quote John 6:44 – “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. – The Father draws. 'Nuff said. Nuff said? John 12:32 “And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.” Blessings 1:18

Is 1:18

Excellent again my brother.

Strong! And true and sound!

Blessings!

[GeneBalthrop]

Nick… I believe God Begot us all in one way or another, none of us brought ourselves in to existence. None of us gave ourselves the holy spirit everything has it's origen from one God. Trinirarians make a big deal out of the word begotten , ask yourself what does that mean, it simply means brought forth by and thats all it means. Yes God brought forth Jesus and he brought forth you and me also.none of us would be here without our Heavenly Father.
this hole play on Only begotten makes it seam like God never beget anything else. the word Only should be unique begotten. because we are all begotten of God. And if you want to know when Jesus came forth, what did God say, this day i have begotten you. what does that mean it he prexisted. everything is begotten by God that existes.

peace …gene

[GeneBalthrop]

to all ….if God said to Jesus, TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU. Does today mean Jesus was begotten before the foundations of the world then,….NO…it means he was created at that time,. Just like we are when we are begotten, now did we prexist ..YES, for whom he fore know he ALSO (like he did Jesus) predestianed to be made into the image of His son….So we could say we prexissted also , but tell me this do any of us know anything of our prexisstence not me. I may prexissted in the plan and will of God but i sure didn't know anything till I was begotten, this is also the way i see Jesus, He prexissited in the plan and will of God only, until he was begotten also.why is there no mention of any activity pryer to his berth.

i know where it say's for Christ ( the annointing ) was that rock that followed them in the wilderness.

and what is the Christos?, it is the Holy spirit, that was following them not the Man Jesus.and what is the Holy Spirit it is God's influence.It was on Moses and the 70 elders of the tribes of Isreal, not to mention the angle that was following them.
the word Christ means the annoited and that annointing was the Holy Spirit which is God's presence in someone. But that does not make that person a GOD,and it didn't make Jesus a God either.

peace to all ………..gene

[NickHassan]

Hi Gene,
If it happened at that time it was written
it was over 500 years before Christ was born.

[IM4Truth]

Gene For the first time I don't understand what you ar saying here. You believe that the Word was not Jesus?
John 1:1 says in the beginning there was the Word etc. So what was the Word then?
Col. 1:16 “For by him were all things created that are in Heaven and on earth, visible and invisible…
If He created all, did He then not created the Angels too. And we know that they were created before
the word became Jesus in the flesh.
Rev. 3:14 These things said the Amen the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God.
It is talking about Jesus here. Right?
It also says that God send His only begotten Son, so that through Him we might be saved.
If He wa not His Son already how could He send Him.
Proverb 8:22 The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way before his works of old
verse 24 when there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there was were no fountains abounding water.
Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was brought forth.
verse 27 when he prepared the heavens, I was there; when he set the compass upon the face of the depth.
verse 30 Then I was by him, a one brought up with him;and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him.

The footnotes say that it was wisdom, but I cant understand that. God the Father was and is all Wise and all Powerful. And why would He want to create His own wisdom. That to me makes no sense.
Give me your understanding of this scriptures, Please
Mrs,IM4Truth

[NickHassan]

Hi MIM,
Wisdom expressed as order and harmony inbue all of God's creation.
So much so that no men have excuses not to know of His reality[Rom.1]

[Is 1:18]

Quote (kejonn @ July 15 2007,13:47)

Theos. Too simple. Expound.

Form (nature) of God (the Father). Appears pretty straightforward to me but in case this is insufficient for you I'll defer to A. T. Robertson:

“Morfh means the essential attributes as shown in the form. In his preincarnate state Christ possessed the attributes of God and so appeared to those in heaven who saw him. Here is a clear statement by Paul of the deity of Christ.”
http://bibletools.org/index.c….nt

Quote

Word was God (John 1:1), Word Became flesh (John 1:14), therefore God became flesh. It's not difficult to follow…. No, not as you put it. But as it is written, not so. If you say became, then you may as well say ceased to be. Since God is spirit, if God becomes flesh, He is no longer spirit.

False dichotomy. Do we cease to be human when our spirit leaves our body? No. A change from the physical to the spiritual does not alter ontology. Also, we are spiritual beings, with a body. We are body, soul and spirit. Our body does not define our very being, it is our temporary “tent”.

Quote

Now you have a new dilemma to overcome. Have you not posted that you believe that Yeshua retained his human body, albeit glorified in some manner? Still flesh then.

You mean at the resurrection? Yes. Unless you can tell me where the body went to? There is no dilemma, Yeshua, like us was a spiritual being with a human body. But His essence was divine (Heb 1:3). Ours is not.

Quote

Automatically, “God is spirit” conflicts with your theology since you say Yeshua is God. Which “truth” is still true?

I assert that YHWH can put on a body of flesh and not cease to be YHWH. This would not be impossible to YHWH. Do you contest this? If so, on what grounds? Where is the dilemma here?

Quote

Yeshua's hypostasis (i.e. essence/substance) is an exact representation of the Fathers…. Really? How many invisible humans do we have running around?

I had to read this a few times in order to understand what your point was. I think I have a handle on it. Kejonn, Yeshua's body was visible yes, but hypostasis (essence/substance) is nothing to do with external appearance. You can't see human essence, for instance, it's inside us. BTW, YHWH has been seen many times:

Third post down

So your point is invalidated on two counts.

Quote

I was thinking that Yeshua was a man. Where did I miss the scripture that said God was a man?

You won't find it in the OT, it hadn't happaned in their era. You can find it in the NT though (John 1:1, 14; John 19:37; Acts 20:28; Col 2:9; Phil 2:5-8, Rev 1:17, 2;9, 22:13).

Quote

“God is spirit”, Yeshua is flesh. I guess you are saying flesh=spirit? How does that line up with Gen 6:3?

As I said before, because humans that have flesh it does not follow that we are not spiritual beings, we have a spirit, we are spiritual beings within a tent of flesh.

2 Corinthians 5:1-4
1For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven, 3inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked. 4For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life.

We are spiritual beings, that's what “groan” within this house (i.e. flesh). So the flesh/spirit contrast is not quite as clear cut as you would have me believe.

Quote

8. Can be described as the Alpha and Omega. False, all the occurrences belong to God. The one you want to use in Rev 22:13 still belongs to God. Please read 22:6 for context. Read Rev 22:12 (cf v20) for context…

You are working off of “I am coming quickly”. I am working off of the last angel to speak, who was from “the God of the spirits of the prophets” (Rev 22:6). He continued to speak until John broke the narrative in verse 14. Please read the verses again.[/quote]

Revelation 22:1-6
1Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, 2in the middle of its street On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bond-servants will serve Him; 4they will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads. 5And there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever. 6And he said to me, “These words are faithful and true”; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place.  7″And behold, I am coming quickly Blessed is he who heeds the words of the prophecy of this book.”

Are you saying that because the angel is mentioned in verse 6 he therefore speaks in verses 6-13? Is the angel “coming quickly” in you opinion? Is the angel the “Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end”?? This strikes me as a very strange view. To me the speaker in verse 7-13 is manifestly not an angel, the declarations are utterly incompatible with what an angel would dare to say. I can't believe you cant see that. BTW, in verse 16 we also learn that that the “God of the spirits of the prophets” that sends the angel is none other than Yeshua.

Revelation 22:6
6And he said to me, “These words are faithful and true”; and the Lord, the Go
d of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place.

cf.

Revelation 22:16
16″I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.”

Two questions:

[NickHassan]

Hi Is 1.18,
Where is Christ said to be of divine essence?
Was this essence responsible for his works of power?
Or was it God in him doing these works?

John 10:38
But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

If it was his own works why did the environment of faith matter?

Matthew 13:58
And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.

If it was his own works how come we could do greater works?

John 14:12
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Why do you give glory to the Son at the expense of the Father Who sent him?

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