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Hi Is 1.18,
Do we need to use ONTOLOGICAL?
It is not in the bible and using THEOLOGICAL tools to try to grasp a Spiritual book is not wise.isa 1:18…> think about it this way… like a bicycle wheel the hub Let's say is God the Father and the spokes His Spirit and we are the connector screws atached to the rim. each spoke is connected to the one hub via the spokes. we are all including Jesus connected to the Father by One Spirit. cant you see the logic, it makes sense. …gene
Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 15 2007,12:14) Quote (kejonn @ July 15 2007,11:52) 1. Existed in the form of God.
True. What exactly is that form?
Theos.
Too simple. Expound.Quote Word was God (John 1:1), Word Became flesh (John 1:14), therefore God became flesh. It's not difficult to follow….
No, not as you put it. But as it is written, not so. If you say became, then you may as well say ceased to be. Since God is spirit, if God becomes flesh, He is no longer spirit. Now you have a new dilemma to overcome. Have you not posted that you believe that Yeshua retained his human body, albeit glorified in some manner? Still flesh then.Automatically, “God is spirit” conflicts with your theology since you say Yeshua is God. Which “truth” is still true?
Quote Yeshua's hypostasis (i.e. essence/substance) is an exact representation of the Fathers….
Really? How many invisible humans do we have running around? I was thinking that Yeshua was a man. Where did I miss the scripture that said God was a man? “God is spirit”, Yeshua is flesh. I guess you are saying flesh=spirit? How does that line up with Gen 6:3?Quote Quote 8. Can be described as the Alpha and Omega.
False, all the occurrences belong to God. The one you want to use in Rev 22:13 still belongs to God. Please read 22:6 for context.
Read Rev 22:12 (cf v20) for context…
You are working off of “I am coming quickly”. I am working off of the last angel to speak, who was from “the God of the spirits of the prophets” (Rev 22:6). He continued to speak until John broke the narrative in verse 14. Please read the verses again.Ah, forget it. Your filter will not allow for the truth to sink in. I'll walk you through it.
- 22:6 – tells who the angel is speaking on behalf of: “the God of the spirits of the prophets”.
- The message of God continues until John tries to worship the angel in verse 22:8. The angel mildly rebukes him because he is but an angel, a fellow servant (22:9).
- The same angel in verse 22:6 picks back up where he was before John interrupted him in 22:10. “and he said to me”
- The angel that started to speak in 22:6 ends his message in 22:13.
- John inserts his own commentary in verses 22:14-15
- An angel sent by Yeshua starts to speak in 22:16
Working off of “I am coming quickly” is weak. Do you think the Father will sit back and say “Hey Son, call me when the battle is over. I'm going to throw some popcorn in the microwave and watch ESPN”?
Quote (kejonn @ July 15 2007,12:58) Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 15 2007,11:05) kejonn,
Can you tell us in what sense the Father was/is “greater” than the Son?
In every way! But that's too easy of an answer. The next easiest answer is that the Son would not exist without the Father. That's too easy as well. How about this then: the Father is the source of all, the Son is the vessel or instrument to carry it everything out. You can flip the switch all you want, but the light won't come on if the power bill hasn't been paid. Therefore, nothing is greater than the source of all.- Matthew 11:27 – “All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.” – The Son has everything the Father has given him. But everything had to come from the Father, it was not merely the Son's to take.
- Matthew 13:15 – But He answered and said, “Every plant which My heavenly Father did not plant shall be uprooted.” – The Father is the source. The Son is not.
- Matthew 24:36 – “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.” – Hmmm, The Father, omniscient. The Son, not.
- Matthew 26:29 – “But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father's kingdom.” – Yeshua and YHWH share the Kingdom, but Yeshua acknowledges who the Kingdom truly belongs to. My house is my son's house, but I'm the one who has his name on the title.
- Matthew 26:53 – “Or do you think that I cannot appeal to My Father, and He will at once put at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels?” – The Son has to ask for these things, he cannot do them without his Father. The Father is the source.
- Luke 22:42 – saying, “Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done.” – The Son has his own ideas and will, but he knows whose will is over all. Everything happens according to the will of the Father.
- Luke 23:46 – And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, “Father, INTO YOUR HANDS I COMMIT MY SPIRIT.” Having said this, He breathed His last. – Yeshua shows us who is the keeper of our spirit. It is not him, it is the Father.
- Luke 24:49 – “And behold, I am sending forth the promise of My Father upon you; but you are to stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high.” – The promises have always come from the Father. Yeshua can carry them out, but they are still promises of the Father.
- John 5:19 – Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner. – I'll just let that verse speak for itself.
- John 6:44 – “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. – The Father draws. 'Nuff said.
- John 15:1 – “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. – without the vinedresser, the vine will eventually perish. Of course, the Father will not allow this, but He does have that power
Kejonn, all of these can be explained by Phil 2:5-8. Ho Logos existed in the form of God but emptied Himself and took on the form of a bondservant. However, it's quite patent that He is no longer empty, remember this:He was given ALL authority on Heaven and Earth:
Matthew 28:18
18And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. (It’s interesting that Yeshua made this statement after some were doubtful about worshipping Him…..)He is Lord of both the dead and living:
Romans 14:9
9For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living. (also refer Col 2:10)In fact, He is Lord of all:
Acts 10:36
36″The word which He sent to the sons of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ (He is Lord of all)— (also refer Rom 10:12)He is to honoured in exactly the same way as the Father:
John 5:22-23
22″For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, 23so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.He has the name above all names:
Philippians 2:9
9For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,And He is upholding the “all things” by the word of His power
Hebrews 1:3
3And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high (also refer Col 1:17)Hebrews 1:3 is particularly interesting. It affirms that Yeshua is upholding (sustaining) “all things” by the power of HIS word (something that is ascribed to YHWH in Nehemiah 9:6). Clearly if Yeshua were a created “thing” He would be sustaining/preserving His own existence. But He is not a thing, but the Creator of things (John 1:3, Col 1:16, Heb 1:10).
Quote Luke 23:46 – And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, “Father, INTO YOUR HANDS I COMMIT MY SPIRIT.” Having said this, He breathed His last. – Yeshua shows us who is the keeper of our spirit. It is not him, it is the Father.
Oh really?Acts 7:59
59They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!”cf.
Ecclesiastes 12:6-7
“Remember your Creator before the silver cord is loosed,
Or the golden bowl is broken…Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.Curious.
Quote John 5:19 – Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner. – I'll just let that verse speak for itself.
The other way to look at this verse is that Yeshua expressed that He can do nothing except that God which God the Father does, which is exactly the kind of language we would expect to see if He was God in the flesh. Know of any other men this could be said of?Quote John 6:44 – “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. – The Father draws. 'Nuff said.
Nuff said?John 12:32
“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”Blessings
1:18Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 15 2007,13:35) Isa 1:18….> God told us , be you holy for i am holy, be you perfect for i am perfect.
Question: was/is Yeshua Holy and perfect?Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 15 2007,12:16) Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 15 2007,11:26) Well I just thought you and WJ were arguing at cross purposes. I have yet to see you define how you understand “greatness” in the context in which it is used of the Father relative to Yeshua. Don't you think you should at least explain it to him so that he may know whether he agrees or disagree with you? In what sense is the Father greater than the Son?
It's a simple question.
kejonn??
Is,I notice this about you. You look to see if a person's username is still logged in and think that we are sitting at our keyboard, waiting to answer your posts. Patience is a virtue my friend. I have a life outside of this forum which I must attend to. If you see my username logged in, I may not really be at my computer. Should I log out when I step away to relieve myself, to watch TV, or attend to some other distraction?
Please do not do this. It detracts from your character which I believe to be rather strong for the most part.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 15 2007,13:21) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 15 2007,13:09) isa 1:18 why cant you get it, let me try again to explain, do you remember when Jesus said come unto me all you who are heavy laden, take (MY) yoke upon you, and you will find rest for your souls, ect. the yoke Jesus has on him is the connection between him and then Father and he wants us to take the same yoke on us also.
this connects us with the Father (holy spirit) just like it does him. its what binds us all together. we are all one with the Father through the holy spirit.
it yokes us all together…..think about it Isa1.18…..gene
We are one with Yeshua AND the Father.Think about it Gene.
isa1:18….>not only are one with the Father and Jesus we are one with each other because we are all linked by ONE SPIRIT.
so agian think about it isa1:18….geneisa1:18 ……….> Jesus is perfect to the point He fallows the Father's perfect will, which is not his will< just as it: the son of man came NOT to do HIS WILL but the will of Him who sent him. and I will gaurrenty it wasn't himself that sent him.
think about what were trying to explain to you please…Gene
Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 15 2007,13:49)
Kejonn, all of these can be explained by Phil 2:5-8. Ho Logos existed in the form of God but emptied Himself and took on the form of a bondservant. However, it's quite patent that He is no longer empty, remember this:
Sure about that? Does he have the power to take it for himself, or must he be given these things? The receiver is at the mercy of the giver.Quote He was given ALL authority on Heaven and Earth:
Yes, given. GIVEN. I can give you power of attorney, but I can turn around and take it away. So then, who has the real power and authority?Quote Matthew 28:18
18And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. (It’s interesting that Yeshua made this statement after some were doubtful about worshipping Him…..)
“Given” is the keyword for today. The receiver is nothing without the giver.Quote In fact, He is Lord of all: Acts 10:36
36″The word which He sent to the sons of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ (He is Lord of all)— (also refer Rom 10:12)
And this is a problem how?Quote He is to honoured in exactly the same way as the Father: John 5:22-23
22″For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, 23so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
We already covered this. It is the Father's will that this should be, it is not the Son's to take.Quote He has the name above all names: Philippians 2:9
9For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,
Hey, check it out. “God highly exalted him”. Did Yeshua exalt himself then? I can just see Yeshua patting himself on the back. But we can see the Father exalting His Son.Quote And He is upholding the “all things” by the word of His power Hebrews 1:3
3And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high (also refer Col 1:17)
Forgot to include Heb 1:2. God made him “heir to all things”. The source still stands.Quote Quote Luke 23:46 – And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, “Father, INTO YOUR HANDS I COMMIT MY SPIRIT.” Having said this, He breathed His last. – Yeshua shows us who is the keeper of our spirit. It is not him, it is the Father.
Oh really?Acts 7:59
59They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!”John 14:6 – Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
Yes, really.
Quote Quote John 5:19 – Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner. – I'll just let that verse speak for itself.
The other way to look at this verse is that Yeshua expressed that He can do nothing except that God which God the Father does, which is exactly the kind of language we would expect to see if He was God in the flesh. Know of any other men this could be said of?
Sure. Other than the “Son” part, we can say the same of any of the prior prophets of God. Are we to include them into the Godhead then? I don't have time to count all of them, nor do I know the word that would describe such a number that makes up God. I stop counting at Octarianism.Quote Quote John 6:44 – “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. – The Father draws. 'Nuff said.
Nuff said?
If you can't see the truth in this, I can't help you.Quote John 12:32
“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”
AHA! Your trinitarian “truth” falls to the floor. John 6:44 says “Father” not merely God. If you say that Yeshua does the same you are not believing that Yeshua is God, you believe Yeshua is the Father. This is NOT Trinitarianist thinking. Careful.Really though, both verses agree. The Father is still the source. Otherwise, you must be accusing Yeshua of contradiction.
isa1.18 Jesus said if he was lifted up like the serpent in the wilderness he would draw all men to him. the serpent in the wilderness was not God, but when the childern of Isreal begain to worship as a God what happened, it was completely destroyed. trinitarian idology has elevated Jesus to God the Fathers level, and created another God on the same level. this condition was prophecied in 2thes2 creating another God who sit's in the temple of God being Desplayed as God, who do you know today is sitting in the temple of God and is being porteayed as a God, is it not Jesus himself.And Jesus himself will destory this False image of him when he returns, just like it say's . i would think about this if i were you………time is short I believe….gene
Gene,
Although I don't think much of that can be attributed to the Trinity, there are some eyebrow-raising verses nonetheless. From 2 Thessalonians 24 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.
11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,
16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace
I think that the two verses that hold some power are 4 and 16 in conjunction. One says that another will display himself as being God — which some people want to say Yeshua is — and the other verse makes the distinctive separation of Yeshua as Lord and the Father as God. Both of these verses only 8 verses apart. Phew.
I wonder about verse 4 as well, because I see the Trinity blurring the lines on who is to receive the worship. Yeshua said true worshipers worship the Father. Some worship Yeshua alone or at best worship the Father as an afterthought. I think you can worship Yeshua as long as you keep the perspective of who is truly deserving of all worship and praise: the Father.
Gene You explain everything so fantastic. I don't have to post anymore. I just read what you post and rejoice that at least you understand fully What God is. Not a trinity. Thank you and most of all “Thanks to our God the Almighty Father through Jesus Christ we are made Brothers we Pray” And I will Pray for those that are struggling to understand what you are posting.
Peace Mrs.IM4TruthQuote (kejonn @ July 15 2007,13:54) Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 15 2007,12:16) Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 15 2007,11:26) Well I just thought you and WJ were arguing at cross purposes. I have yet to see you define how you understand “greatness” in the context in which it is used of the Father relative to Yeshua. Don't you think you should at least explain it to him so that he may know whether he agrees or disagree with you? In what sense is the Father greater than the Son?
It's a simple question.
kejonn??
Is,I notice this about you. You look to see if a person's username is still logged in and think that we are sitting at our keyboard, waiting to answer your posts. Patience is a virtue my friend. I have a life outside of this forum which I must attend to. If you see my username logged in, I may not really be at my computer. Should I log out when I step away to relieve myself, to watch TV, or attend to some other distraction?
Please do not do this. It detracts from your character which I believe to be rather strong for the most part.
Okay, fair call. I'll take that on board. It's nice to know that you appraise my character as being only mildly defective.
Hi KJ,
You say
“I notice this about you. You look to see if a person's username is still logged in and think that we are sitting at our keyboard, waiting to answer your posts. Patience is a virtue my friend. I have a life outside of this forum which I must attend to. If you see my username logged in, I may not really be at my computer. Should I log out when I step away to relieve myself, to watch TV, or attend to some other distraction? “Surely anyone can post anytime they like and no one should place restrictions on others?
You can respond when you feel like it.Like to clarify the Spirit of God the Father connects us all, but we pray through Jesus Christ. Looks like their are several Night Owls here. Mrs.IM4Truth
Nick,
What I was referring to is that I have seen Is 1:18 making posts like “I see you are on, would you reply”. I'm not restricting anyone, I was merely asking Is 1:18 to refrain from pressuring people for answers just because he saw they were logged on.
From his posts, I highly respect Is 1:18. He supports his beliefs and defends them admirably. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. He is one of many on here I can truly call brother based on what I have seen from him. It matters little that we disagree on things such as these. I just had that one nitpick with him
.Quote (kejonn @ July 15 2007,16:10) I think you can worship Yeshua as long as you keep the perspective of who is truly deserving of all worship and praise: the Father.
kejonn,
I'll try to address your longer posts tonight. I thought this comment was provocative. It seems that you want to be careful not to extol Yeshua too much. But nowhere in scripture are we cautioned in this regard. Nowhere are we censured for adoring Him too much, lauding Him too highly…..This is hardly a picture of tempered praise:
Revelation 5:12-14
12saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.” 13And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, “To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.” 14And the four living creatures kept saying, “Amen ” And the elders fell down and worshiped.If you do not honour Him even as you honour the Father you do not honour the Father who sent Him (John 5:23).
He is worthy.
Quote (IM4Truth @ July 15 2007,16:30) Like to clarify the Spirit of God the Father connects us all, but we pray through Jesus Christ. Looks like their are several Night Owls here. Mrs.IM4Truth
He he…it's only 4:40pm where I live.
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