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Quote (Laurel @ July 15 2007,11:21) Is 1:18
Here we are told that Messiah did not esteem Himself as YHWH. Y'shua knows His position and how He came to be in that position.
Y'shua says, “No one comes to the Father, but by me.”
Also, Y'shua says, “Not My will, but yours.”
This is how I understand Ph. 2:6Then about asking the same question again about who is greater?
My answer is :You ask foolish questions.
It's not foolish to ask for someone's understanding of a biblical statement.What did Paul mean by “form of God” in Philippians 2:6?
Why is this so difficult to answer?
Why the power struggle? I'm done trying to show you in words. Re-read and maybe you'll get it. If not ask for the guidance of the Se-apart Spirit. It always works for me.
One last comment before I sign out.
I know that Y'shua was given the power of His Father in full measure, so to ask who is more powerful is foolishness, because the Spirit is One.Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 15 2007,11:01) I'm not having much luck getting any solid answer from you Laurel. Read Zech 14 carefully. Ask yourself this – whose feet will stand on the Mt of Olives?
It's interesting that Yeshua said “I am in My Father and My Father is in Me”
What do you think He meant by this?
Hi Is 1.18,
Obvviously he did not mean that he was his father or that they were one binity being because he said he is the Son of God.
Surely it means the same as in 1 Cor 5.19-true unity between two.
“God was in him..”
We follow him being united in the same Spirit with Christ and God.Quote (Laurel @ July 15 2007,11:34) Why the power struggle? I'm done trying to show you in words. Re-read and maybe you'll get it. If not ask for the guidance of the Se-apart Spirit. It always works for me.
I was hoping that you could show me why i'm wrong and you're right. But the discussion never got off the ground due to your reluctance to give me straight answers. Too bad.Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 15 2007,11:40) Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 15 2007,11:01) I'm not having much luck getting any solid answer from you Laurel. Read Zech 14 carefully. Ask yourself this – whose feet will stand on the Mt of Olives?
It's interesting that Yeshua said “I am in My Father and My Father is in Me”
What do you think He meant by this?
Hi Is 1.18,
Obvviously he did not mean that he was his father or that they were one binity being because he said he is the Son of God.
Surely it means the same as in 1 Cor 5.19-true unity between two.
“God was in him..”
We follow him being united in the same Spirit with Christ and God.
Are we “in” the Father, like Yeshua is? Where is it written?Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 15 2007,10:31) Does it? Name another man that:- 1. Existed in the form of God.
True. What exactly is that form?Quote 2. Was God in the beginning.
Maybe. I don't think anyone has fully resolved John 1:1. I find it odd that John's Gospel interspersed the verses about John the Baptist with the Word. John's Gospel did not speak of the birth story at all, so he left it open to possibly relate the Word with Yeshua's baptism. Which also leaves the possibility open that the Holy Spirit is/was the Word. See how complicated the John narrative can be?Quote 3. Was was the result of a conception involving YHWH.
True.Quote 4. Has (or has had) the fullness of theotes in him.
True.Quote 5. is the exact representation of God's nature.
Representation1. The act of representing or the state of being represented.
2. Something that represents, as:a. An image or likeness of something.
b. An account or statement, as of facts, allegations, or arguments.
c. An expostulation; a protest.
d. A presentation or production, as of a play.3. The state or condition of serving as an official delegate, agent, or spokesperson.
Your word, not mine
.Quote 6. Was/is without sin.
True.Quote 7. Is to be honoured “even as” the Father is.
True. The Father is the epitome of love and selflessness, He wants the very best for His Son.Quote 8. Can be described as the Alpha and Omega.
False, all the occurrences belong to God. The one you want to use in Rev 22:13 still belongs to God. Please read 22:6 for context.Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 15 2007,11:52) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 15 2007,11:40) Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 15 2007,11:01) I'm not having much luck getting any solid answer from you Laurel. Read Zech 14 carefully. Ask yourself this – whose feet will stand on the Mt of Olives?
It's interesting that Yeshua said “I am in My Father and My Father is in Me”
What do you think He meant by this?
Hi Is 1.18,
Obvviously he did not mean that he was his father or that they were one binity being because he said he is the Son of God.
Surely it means the same as in 1 Cor 5.19-true unity between two.
“God was in him..”
We follow him being united in the same Spirit with Christ and God.
Are we “in” the Father, like Yeshua is? Where is it written?
Hi Is 1.18,
Jn 17
” 20Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
25O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
26And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.
Quote (kejonn @ July 15 2007,11:52) 1. Existed in the form of God.
True. What exactly is that form?
Theos.Quote 2. Was God in the beginning.
Maybe. I don't think anyone has fully resolved John 1:1. I find it odd that John's Gospel interspersed the verses about John the Baptist with the Word. John's Gospel did not speak of the birth story at all, so he left it open to possibly relate the Word with Yeshua's baptism. Which also leaves the possibility open that the Holy Spirit is/was the Word. See how complicated the John narrative can be?
Word was God (John 1:1), Word Became flesh (John 1:14), therefore God became flesh.It's not difficult to follow….
Quote 5. is the exact representation of God's nature.
Representation1. The act of representing or the state of being represented.
2. Something that represents, as:a. An image or likeness of something.
b. An account or statement, as of facts, allegations, or arguments.
c. An expostulation; a protest.
d. A presentation or production, as of a play.3. The state or condition of serving as an official delegate, agent, or spokesperson.
Your word, not mine
.
Yeshua's hypostasis (i.e. essence/substance) is an exact representation of the Fathers….Quote 7. Is to be honoured “even as” the Father is.
True. The Father is the epitome of love and selflessness, He wants the very best for His Son.
The Father deserves honour in the absolute sense, as does the Son.Quote 8. Can be described as the Alpha and Omega.
False, all the occurrences belong to God. The one you want to use in Rev 22:13 still belongs to God. Please read 22:6 for context.
Read Rev 22:12 (cf v20) for context…Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 15 2007,11:26) Well I just thought you and WJ were arguing at cross purposes. I have yet to see you define how you understand “greatness” in the context in which it is used of the Father relative to Yeshua. Don't you think you should at least explain it to him so that he may know whether he agrees or disagree with you? In what sense is the Father greater than the Son?
It's a simple question.
kejonn??Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 15 2007,11:55) 21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
It says “one in us“….Hi Is 1.18,
We have already established that Christ is in God.
Is it difficult to understand why we who are in Christ are also in God?Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 15 2007,10:36) Hi Is 1.18,
We too can be anointed and enabled to follow Christ by the Spirit.
God can be in us too.Eph 3
” 17That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,18May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
19And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
to all let me paraphrase Nick's responce.Eph 3:17..that the christos (annointing or spirit) may dewll in your hearts by faith, so you being rooted and grounded in Love.
18…> you may be able to comprehend, with all saints, what is the breath, length, and height;
19…>and to know the love from the christos (annointing or spirit)which passes all knowledge,that you might be filled with all the fullness of God.
ONE GOD AND ONE MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND MAN, THE
(MAN) JESUS THE ANNOINTED OR THE CHRIST.THANKS
Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 15 2007,12:26) But Yeshua is the only man that is explicitly said to be “in” the Father, that's the point.
Hi Is 1.18,
Are you not in Christ?
He is in God.
He is in obedience to God submitted completely to the will of God and God is in him as Spirit.
ONEQuote (Is 1:18 @ July 15 2007,11:05) kejonn,
Can you tell us in what sense the Father was/is “greater” than the Son?
In every way! But that's too easy of an answer. The next easiest answer is that the Son would not exist without the Father. That's too easy as well. How about this then: the Father is the source of all, the Son is the vessel or instrument to carry it everything out. You can flip the switch all you want, but the light won't come on if the power bill hasn't been paid. Therefore, nothing is greater than the source of all.- Matthew 11:27 – “All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.” – The Son has everything the Father has given him. But everything had to come from the Father, it was not merely the Son's to take.
- Matthew 13:15 – But He answered and said, “Every plant which My heavenly Father did not plant shall be uprooted.” – The Father is the source. The Son is not.
- Matthew 24:36 – “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.” – Hmmm, The Father, omniscient. The Son, not.
- Matthew 26:29 – “But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father's kingdom.” – Yeshua and YHWH share the Kingdom, but Yeshua acknowledges who the Kingdom truly belongs to. My house is my son's house, but I'm the one who has his name on the title.
- Matthew 26:53 – “Or do you think that I cannot appeal to My Father, and He will at once put at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels?” – The Son has to ask for these things, he cannot do them without his Father. The Father is the source.
- Luke 22:42 – saying, “Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done.” – The Son has his own ideas and will, but he knows whose will is over all. Everything happens according to the will of the Father.
- Luke 23:46 – And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, “Father, INTO YOUR HANDS I COMMIT MY SPIRIT.” Having said this, He breathed His last. – Yeshua shows us who is the keeper of our spirit. It is not him, it is the Father.
- Luke 24:49 – “And behold, I am sending forth the promise of My Father upon you; but you are to stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high.” – The promises have always come from the Father. Yeshua can carry them out, but they are still promises of the Father.
- John 5:19 – Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner. – I'll just let that verse speak for itself.
- John 6:44 – “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. – The Father draws. 'Nuff said.
- John 15:1 – “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. – without the vinedresser, the vine will eventually perish. Of course, the Father will not allow this, but He does have that power
isa 1:18 why cant you get it, let me try again to explain, do you remember when Jesus said come unto me all you who are heavy laden, take (MY) yoke upon you, and you will find rest for your souls, ect.
the yoke Jesus has on him is the connection between him and then Father and he wants us to take the same yoke on us also.
this connects us with the Father (holy spirit) just like it does him. its what binds us all together. we are all one with the Father through the holy spirit.
it yokes us all together…..think about it Isa1.18…..gene
Since we agree that the Father is greater as to His position than Yeshua the issue we have to resolve is – 'is the Father a greater being'? If you examine the application of the word “greater” (Gr. Meizon) by Gospel writers, it's manifestly apparent that this word isn't used to denote ontological greatness. I did a literary search of the Gospels for the word greater/greatest, discounting the “the Father is greater than I” verses. Here are the eight texts I found where the word “Meizon” is applied to a person or people, and is used in a comparative way:-
Matthew 11:11
“Truly I say to you, among those born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the Baptist! Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. (cf. Luke 7:28)Does this verse mean that JTB is superior in his nature than the rest of humanity?
Matthew 18:1-4
1At that time the disciples came to Jesus and said, “Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?” 2And He called a child to Himself and set him before them,
3and said, “Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. 4″Whoever then humbles himself as this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.Were the disciples enquiring as to who will be the greatest being here?
Matthew 23:10-12
10″Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ. 11″But the greatest among you shall be your servant. 12″Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled; and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted.Was Yeshua speaking of ontological superiority here?
Mark 9:33-35
33They came to Capernaum; and when He was in the house, He began to question them, “What were you discussing on the way?” 34But they kept silent, for on the way they had discussed with one another which of them was the greatest. 35Sitting down, He called the twelve and said to them, “If anyone wants to be first, he shall be last of all and servant of all.”(cf. Luke 9:46f)Is a servant superior in his ontology that those he serves?
Luke 22:24-27
24And there arose also a dispute among them as to which one of them was regarded to be greatest. 25And He said to them, “The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who have authority over them are called 'Benefactors.' 26″But it is not this way with you, but the one who is the greatest among you must become like the youngest, and the leader like the servant. 27″For who is greater, the one who reclines at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who reclines at the table? But I am among you as the one who serves.As above.
John 8:53
“Surely You are not greater than our father Abraham, who died? The prophets died too; whom do You make Yourself out to be?”Were the Pharisees charging Yeshua with claiming ontological superiority to Abraham here?
John 13:16
“Truly, truly, I say to you, a slave is not greater than his master, nor is one who is sent greater than the one who sent him.Is a slave greater in the nature of his being than the master?
John 15:20
“Remember the word that I said to you, ' A slave is not greater than his master ' If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also.As above.
What’s evident here is that not once is “Meizon” used to demonstrate a superior nature or a higher category of being. In every single instance it denotes a disparity in authority/position/rank. That appears to be way the word is used by the Gospel writers. And so, to me, it seems logical that Yeshua was not speaking of His inferior ontology relative to the Father when He said he was “Meizon” than Him, but rather His lower position. The Father did not empty Himself and take on flesh, the Logos did. The Logos did not send the Father, the Father sent the Logos. The Son is subservient to His Father but he is not a lesser being. Which makes sense in light of Hebrews 1:3 which tells us that Yeshua is, as to His essence/substance, an exact representation of the Father.
Blessings
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 15 2007,13:09) isa 1:18 why cant you get it, let me try again to explain, do you remember when Jesus said come unto me all you who are heavy laden, take (MY) yoke upon you, and you will find rest for your souls, ect. the yoke Jesus has on him is the connection between him and then Father and he wants us to take the same yoke on us also.
this connects us with the Father (holy spirit) just like it does him. its what binds us all together. we are all one with the Father through the holy spirit.
it yokes us all together…..think about it Isa1.18…..gene
We are one with Yeshua AND the Father.Think about it Gene.
Isa 1:18….> God told us , be you holy for i am holy, be you perfect for i am perfect. God the Father wants us all to be holy and perfect. and doesn't it say those who Have the Spirit are holy and even there childern are holy. God was in Jesus and He is in all who have His spirit. the spirit of God is the common denominator of us all.You know their is only one God, even Jesus quoted the saying not two or three person in essences or forms or anything else .why can't you atleast see some of this logic……gene
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