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Quote (IM4Truth @ July 14 2007,14:47) WJ All I have to say to you is, I wouldn't put my trust in a Doctrine that was invented by a Man like
Quintus Septimus Florens Tertullian.Mrs.IM4Truth
Im4So whats that have to do with this statement you made…
Quote There are a lot of Scriptures that have been added.
If you dont trust the scriptures, then what do you have?So do you just white out the ones you dont agree with?
Hi Not3,
The last time we discussed this scripture you surmised that “form” in Phil 2:6 denoted external appearance. Do you still maintain this?Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 14 2007,17:50) Hi Not3,
The last time we discussed this scripture you surmised that “form” in Phil 2:6 denoted external appearance. Do you still maintain this?
“nature” OR “form”? To be or not to be? That is the question!
Bro, all I know is that Philippians does not explicitly teach that JESUS preexisted. You gave this passage as one that you base Jesus' preexistence on……..I don't see it. But I'm sure that you can help me to! Ha! But even if I see it because of your clever teaching – it is still not there within the words of the scripture.
I'm off to bed.
Goodnight all.Hi Not3,
You can't see it because you doctrinal presupposition will not allow it. It's not the fault of an obscure text, it quite clearly teaches Yeshua's preexistence.Blessings
Quote (IM4Truth @ July 14 2007,14:47) WJ All I have to say to you is, I wouldn't put my trust in a Doctrine that was invented by a Man like
Quintus Septimus Florens Tertullian.Mrs.IM4Truth
I wonder if you could produce evidence that Tertullian was the first man to “invent” the trinity.Hi Is 1.18,
I am glad you understand that somebody invented it.
It was never taught by the prophets and neither was it taught by Jesus.
It was never even taught by the apostles but appeared many years later.Should we trust these men more that Jesus?
Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 14 2007,11:55) Quote it's we because it's the same spirit of the Father
Gene,
Why then did Yeshua use plural pronouns in this verse?:John 14:23
23Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.Why?
Why?
Why?
Because because because:John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 14 2007,20:31) Quote (IM4Truth @ July 14 2007,14:47) WJ All I have to say to you is, I wouldn't put my trust in a Doctrine that was invented by a Man like
Quintus Septimus Florens Tertullian.Mrs.IM4Truth
I wonder if you could produce evidence that Tertullian was the first man to “invent” the trinity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TertullianI can't produce conclusive evidence, but I thought I would quote from Wikipedia which says the following under the “Specific teachings” heading:
God, who made the world out of nothing through his Son, the Word, has corporeity though he is a spirit (De praescriptione, vii.; Adv. Praxeam, vii.). However Tertullian used 'corporeal' only in the stoic sense, to mean something with actual existence, rather than the later idea of flesh. In the statement of the Trinity, Tertullian was a forerunner of the Nicene doctrine, approaching the subject from the standpoint of the Logos doctrine, though he did not fully state the immanent Trinity. His use of trinitas (Latin: 'Threeness') emphasised the manifold character of God. In his treatise against Praxeas, who taught patripassianism in Rome, he used the words, ” Trinity and economy, persons and substance.” The Son is distinct from the Father, and the Spirit from both the Father and the Son (Adv. Praxeam, xxv). “These three are one substance, not one person; and it is said, 'I and my Father are one' in respect not of the singularity of number but the unity of the substance.” The very names “Father” and “Son” indicate the distinction of personality. The Father is one, the Son is one, and the Spirit is one (Adv. Praxeam, ix). The question whether the Son was coeternal with the Father Tertullian does not set forth in full clarity; and though he did not fully state the doctrine of the immanence of the Trinity, he went a long distance in the way of approach to it.
Actually it sounds very similar to some things you say Isaiah. Whether you realise it or not, it looks as though Tertullian has been a great influence in your life.
It seems that Tertullian was the first to teach the closest thing to the Trinity doctrine as held today. But his doctrine doesn't appear to be as conclusive as todays and this could show that there was indeed a progression as opposed to the theory that Christians have always believed in the Trinity, but didn't need to mention it until a certain heretic came on the scene, from which case they mentioned it in order to defend it.
I have read that Tertullian was the first to say “Trinity”. Can't prove anything either way because I wasn't there.
Was there a writing earlier than what was penned by Tertullian that teaches the Trinity? Well we know that the biblical writers didn't teach it and that speaks louder than anyone who ever taught it.
Tertullian was born to pagan parents, in Carthage North Africa in the year 155 A.S.. He was educated in PHILOSOPHY, and in GREEK AND LITERUTURE: he also studied LAW.
He became greatly interested in Christianity, because he admired those Christians that were willingly to die for their faith. And they did. In 193 A.D. he became a Christian himself, and devoted his time to study of scripture. And by using his KNOWLEDGE OF LAW AND Philosophy became the great defender of the Christians, against the pagan state, the Jews and several greatest early Christian writers.
It is said, that HIS DOCTRINE OF THE TRINITY, finds its best expression in his late work “Adversus Praxean”. And it is in this doctrine and in Christology, that he made his greatest contribution to THEOLOGY.
STOP! Back up a bit; let's read that again:
HIS DOCTRINE OF THE TRINITY?” Well now I'm not surprised anymore, that I can't find it in the Bible.
Why wouldn't Tertullian invent a triune God; all the other religion had more than one, it made Christianity more popular.
Tertullian died after 220A.D.whether we realize it or not, tradition is a powerful enemy. We can be so entrenched in it, that we are willing to fight for it, and in the past, even kill for it; and we make ourselves believe we are worshipping God.
Math.15;9 “but in vain they worship me teaching for DOCTRINES the commandment's of MEN.Jesus said that the Father is greater then I. That alone shows you that they are not co-equal.
Why is that so hard to understand?
W.J and Is1:18 don't get me involved in any other Questions I will not answer anymore you cannot understand. I cant help that. I stated before that I came out of the Cath. Church, and I am certainly not going back. I know what the trinity teaches I taught it to 4 of our Children. I thank God often that He has called me out of that system and I wish with all of my Heart that you could understand it too. PRAY, PRAY FOR WISDOM AND UNDERSTANDING. And have an open mind.
Mrs.IM4Trutht8….> amen brother..> what these trinitarians do is find just a thread and try to hang on to there false teachings, even though they have tons of proof that's just the oppisite to what there saying. it's amazing they cant even use simple logic, i know im not the sharpest tool in the shed, but even a simple minded man like myself has no problem seeing this, and you would think someone like Isa1:18 would have no problem getting it. There has to be something preventing him from understanding, these simple things. Well we can pray for Him and who knows maybe the Lord will open his eyes. peace to you brother……gene
Mrs Im4truth….it doesn't matter we can give them all the proof in the world, as i have seen it done here time and time again they will just search the whole bible looking for a thread to hang on to. it is amazing to me specialy for isa1:18. how seames to have a lot of knowledge of the bible text but yet cant see the obivious. i gess it like it say's God called the simple to confound the wise. if we all pray for Isa1:18 who knows what the Father will do… thanks im4truth. your brother in the faith……gene
Gene! Thank you for your kind words of encouragement, it does help when you know that you are not alone in what one beliefs . I appreciate that very much. Even tho God's Holy Spirit is with us, I have often prayed to God these past 12Years, since we have not attended any Church,that God would send me somebody to fellowship with, and He did.
Peace to you Mrs.IM4TruthQuote (t8 @ July 14 2007,22:13) Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 14 2007,11:55) Quote it's we because it's the same spirit of the Father
Gene,
Why then did Yeshua use plural pronouns in this verse?:John 14:23
23Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.Why?
Why?
Why?
Because because because:John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.
t8And so I guess by the verse you quote we make our abode in one another, is that right?
How does the verse you quote explain Yeshua being “Omnipresent” and living with the Father in every born again Believer?
Because?
Because? Because? Goes along with this verse though…
2 Cor 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?HMM! God made a mere man to be “omnipresent”?
Jesus is the Lord from heaven! God in the flesh!
John 1:1 1:14 and Phil 2. (Zech 12:10 and John 19:37) and ( Isa 6:1-5 and John 12:37-41).
wj….t8 answered you very clearly, my question to you is why do you refuse to believe what obviousely before you eyes, thats the question. It dosen't matter how much proof or logic is presented you are blocked and cant get it. i dont know what to say, just pray i gess…….thanks…gene
Quote (IM4Truth @ July 15 2007,03:14) Tertullian was born to pagan parents, in Carthage North Africa in the year 155 A.S.. He was educated in PHILOSOPHY, and in GREEK AND LITERUTURE: he also studied LAW. He became greatly interested in Christianity, because he admired those Christians that were willingly to die for their faith. And they did. In 193 A.D. he became a Christian himself, and devoted his time to study of scripture. And by using his KNOWLEDGE OF LAW AND Philosophy became the great defender of the Christians, against the pagan state, the Jews and several greatest early Christian writers.
It is said, that HIS DOCTRINE OF THE TRINITY, finds its best expression in his late work “Adversus Praxean”. And it is in this doctrine and in Christology, that he made his greatest contribution to THEOLOGY.
STOP! Back up a bit; let's read that again:
HIS DOCTRINE OF THE TRINITY?” Well now I'm not surprised anymore, that I can't find it in the Bible.
Why wouldn't Tertullian invent a triune God; all the other religion had more than one, it made Christianity more popular.
Tertullian died after 220A.D.whether we realize it or not, tradition is a powerful enemy. We can be so entrenched in it, that we are willing to fight for it, and in the past, even kill for it; and we make ourselves believe we are worshipping God.
Math.15;9 “but in vain they worship me teaching for DOCTRINES the commandment's of MEN.Jesus said that the Father is greater then I. That alone shows you that they are not co-equal.
Why is that so hard to understand?
W.J and Is1:18 don't get me involved in any other Questions I will not answer anymore you cannot understand. I cant help that. I stated before that I came out of the Cath. Church, and I am certainly not going back. I know what the trinity teaches I taught it to 4 of our Children. I thank God often that He has called me out of that system and I wish with all of my Heart that you could understand it too. PRAY, PRAY FOR WISDOM AND UNDERSTANDING. And have an open mind.
Mrs.IM4Truth
Im4You say…
Quote
Jesus said that the Father is greater then I. That alone shows you that they are not co-equal.
Why is that so hard to understand?
Is the President of the United States greater than you?Well I guess you are not human then!
Because Jesus is the Monogenes “Unique” Son Of God does not mean he is not God no more than you being being your Fathers Son means you are not human!
Whys is that so hard to understand?
Unless you can show me that all the Fathers Sons are Monogene “Unique”, then I will believe the scriptures that says Jesus is the Word/God that came in the flesh.
The Lord from heaven!
There is 2 realitys in the universe..
The Uncreated and the Created!
God and Creature!
Since there is no scripture that says Jesus is created, but in fact says…
John 1:3
*All things* were made by him; and *without him* was not *any thing made* that was made.And we know he did not create himself!
Then again I will believe the scriptures that Jesus is in the Uncreated reality wich is God!
You say…
Quote
W.J and Is1:18 don't get me involved in any other Questions I will not answer anymore you cannot understand. I cant help that. I stated before that I came out of the Cath. Church, and I am certainly not going back. I know what the trinity teaches I taught it to 4 of our Children. I thank God often that He has called me out of that system and I wish with all of my Heart that you could understand it too. PRAY, PRAY FOR WISDOM AND UNDERSTANDING. And have an open mind.
Mrs.IM4TruthIf I were you I wouldnt want to have to answer any of our questions either?
I have prayed for you!
Blessing!
to all how like to read……….. there are some very good books out there that will definitly strengthen your faith.
one of my favorets is,:When Jesus God, by, Richard E. Rubenstiein.
another is ,: Misquoting Jesus, By, Bart D. Ehrman
you will see how much the scriptures have been
mistranslated by trinitarian Idology's.and one of my favorit books is , Out of the Flames , by, Lawerence & Nancy Goldstone. a word for word acount of the trial and execution of the spainard Michael Servetus.
by the so called great reformer John Calvin, who orchastrated the murder of Servetus because he wrote a paper on the error's of the trinity.peace to all………….gene
Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 14 2007,20:28) Hi Not3,
You can't see it because you doctrinal presupposition will not allow it. It's not the fault of an obscure text, it quite clearly teaches Yeshua's preexistence.Blessings
Brother,I could say the same of you; that your presupposition will not allow you to see that the scripture is not clear concerning what you hope is there. I'm not saying, “Nanny-nanny-boo-boo” to you! ha! I'm saying that the scripture is not clear as to this doctrinal teaching.
Your beliefs on preexistence determines what “type” of Jesus you believe in, imo. I wouldn't base my belief on a passage of scripture that is ambiguous.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 15 2007,04:51) wj….t8 answered you very clearly, my question to you is why do you refuse to believe what obviousely before you eyes, thats the question. It dosen't matter how much proof or logic is presented you are blocked and cant get it. i dont know what to say, just pray i gess…….thanks…gene
GBNo he didnt answer the questions clearly!
His verse does not at all explain Is 1:18 question!
Maybe you could tell me how God made Jesus “Omnipresent”?
How does Jesus live with the Father in every born again believer as a mere man?
Is it God in your temple, or a mere man, or anointed prophet?
Has God required man to recieve another man like you and I into ourselves?
And how can he call everyman everywhere at the same time to come to him and he would bear their burdens? Matt 11.
Not to mention this “anointed man” baptizes men in the Holy Spirit and fire!
Imagine that, the Holy Spirit of God is subservient to this man?
He is not a mere man as you suppose!
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 15 2007,05:11) to all how like to read……….. there are some very good books out there that will definitly strengthen your faith. one of my favorets is,:When Jesus God, by, Richard E. Rubenstiein.
another is ,: Misquoting Jesus, By, Bart D. Ehrman
you will see how much the scriptures have been
mistranslated by trinitarian Idology's.and one of my favorit books is , Out of the Flames , by, Lawerence & Nancy Goldstone. a word for word acount of the trial and execution of the spainard Michael Servetus.
by the so called great reformer John Calvin, who orchastrated the murder of Servetus because he wrote a paper on the error's of the trinity.peace to all………….gene
GBWhy dont you enlighten us with some of their proof text?
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