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isa 1:18…. you as about the verse that talks about Jesus saying we will come and make our abode with him,> answer is because it's one spirit of the Father that was in Jesus and that same spirit commectes us all to gether we are one family, I could say the same thing to anyone who has the same spirit, we a yoked to the Father with Jesus wer are One with Jesus and the Father, doesn't it say that. Father that they may be one even as we are I in them you in me we are one with God the FAthers and Jesus and all who have the Father's sprit in them.
come on wake up Isa……..geneThat doesn't go any way toward explaining why Yeshua used plural pronouns in John 14:23. It strikes me as something someone would say when they feel compelled to offer some kind of explaination when they do not have a reasonable one….
Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 14 2007,09:43) Quote (kejonn @ July 14 2007,08:12) So, what exactly does Yeshua mean when he says “I am”? Let's do a little study overview Matt 16:15-17 – He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
This was a question, not a statement.Quote Matt 14:61-62 – But He kept silent and did not answer. Again the high priest was questioning Him, and saying to Him, “Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?” And Jesus said, “I am; and you shall see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING WITH THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN.”
Yeshua was answering a question.Quote Luke 22:70 – And they all said, “Are You the Son of God, then?” And He said to them, “Yes, I am.”
Answering a question…Quote John 6:48 – “I am the bread of life.”
There is a predicate in this statement.Quote John 8:12 – Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, “I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life.”
There is a predicate in this statement.Quote John 10:7-9 – So Jesus said to them again, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.
There is a predicate in this statement.Quote John 11:25-27 – Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?” She said to Him, “Yes, Lord; I have believed that You are the Christ, the Son of God, even He who comes into the world.”
Predicates….Quote John 13:13 – “You call Me Teacher and Lord; and you are right, for so I am.”
The predicates are inferred…..Quote John 14:6 – Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
Predicates….Quote John 15:1 – “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.”
Predicate.Quote John 18:5 – They answered Him, “Jesus the Nazarene.” He said to them, “I am He.” And Judas also, who was betraying Him, was standing with them.
Answering question….Predicate is inferred….In John 8:58 there is no predicate, Yeshua is making a statement (and not asking/answering a question) in which He contrasts His existence with Abraham's – “Before Abraham was, I am“….So there is no comparison between the verses you cited and John 8:58.
Food for thought:
http://www.aomin.org/EGO.html
Forest, trees. “Before Abraham was, I am”. Means he's eternal. No disagreement there. Now that wasn't too hard to fathom, was it? But you'd rather jump through hoops in defense of your theology. Too bad the words written plainly are insufficient.Now if the exchange had gone “Who are you?”
“I am”
If that had been the case, we'd have something to work with. Why wasn't the exchange that plain? I mean, they were going to stone him anyways, right? Why not make it clear for us?
I think he did. But alas, others want to muddy the waters. The “water of the word” is getting dingy.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 14 2007,11:55) Hi Is 1.18
“”1. In John 20:28 Thomas declared Yeshua to be his Lord and God.”
One view unsupported by other verses and there are many other views of it's meaning. You mean
Thomas says Jesus is his God, and that means he is not following Jesus whose God is his Father?
I think Thomas was a true follower of Yeshua, Who is the “First and Last”.Quote 2.” A Jewish monotheist has only ONE personal God, namely YHWH.” What is a PERSONAL GOD?
Do we all have our own?
The Jews knew their God and in case there was any confusion the one you call Thomas's God
said their God was the Father[Jn8.54]and called the Father the One TRUE God[Jn17]
“Personal” God was not my designation, it was something I quoted from Mr. Steve from pg 757 of this thread. But by personal I assume he meant a God that one personally holds to be true, which I would agree with…Quote 3.” It's therefore implausible to think that Thomas had acquired another God. “ hmmm.
Does one acquire gods?
Yes. People have always accumulated “gods” for themselves, ask a hindu. But the Bible forbids it.Quote 4. “So Yeshua must be true God.” So Jesus lied?
He said he was the Son of God.
Yeshua is both.Quote (kejonn @ July 14 2007,12:21) Forest, trees. “Before Abraham was, I am”. Means he's eternal. No disagreement there. Now that wasn't too hard to fathom, was it? But you'd rather jump through hoops in defense of your theology. Too bad the words written plainly are insufficient. Now if the exchange had gone “Who are you?”
“I am”
If that had been the case, we'd have something to work with. Why wasn't the exchange that plain? I mean, they were going to stone him anyways, right? Why not make it clear for us?
I think he did. But alas, others want to muddy the waters. The “water of the word” is getting dingy.
I was simply pointing out that the texts you cited should not be used as the lens by which we interpret John 8:58. The contexts and grammar were completely different. So the point you were trying to make was an invalid one.It seem that although you view the statement Yeshua made about Himself (relative to Abraham) as obscure, the Pharisses understood it with great clarity…and wanted to execute Him for it:
John 8:58-59
58Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.” 59Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple.It's not a stonable offense to vaguely allude to an eternality, is it?
Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 14 2007,12:27) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 14 2007,11:55) Hi Is 1.18
“”1. In John 20:28 Thomas declared Yeshua to be his Lord and God.”
One view unsupported by other verses and there are many other views of it's meaning. You mean
Thomas says Jesus is his God, and that means he is not following Jesus whose God is his Father?
I think Thomas was a true follower of Yeshua, Who is the “First and Last”.Quote 2.” A Jewish monotheist has only ONE personal God, namely YHWH.” What is a PERSONAL GOD?
Do we all have our own?
The Jews knew their God and in case there was any confusion the one you call Thomas's God
said their God was the Father[Jn8.54]and called the Father the One TRUE God[Jn17]
“Personal” God was not my designation, it was something I quoted from Mr. Steve from pg 757 of this thread. But by personal I assume he meant a God that one personally holds to be true, which I would agree with…Quote 3.” It's therefore implausible to think that Thomas had acquired another God. “ hmmm.
Does one acquire gods?
Yes. People have always accumulated “gods” for themselves, ask a hindu. But the Bible forbids it.Quote 4. “So Yeshua must be true God.” So Jesus lied?
He said he was the Son of God.
Yeshua is both.
Hi Is 1,18,
So you say the Son of God
is also the God
of whom he is the Son?Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 14 2007,12:38) Quote (kejonn @ July 14 2007,12:21) Forest, trees. “Before Abraham was, I am”. Means he's eternal. No disagreement there. Now that wasn't too hard to fathom, was it? But you'd rather jump through hoops in defense of your theology. Too bad the words written plainly are insufficient. Now if the exchange had gone “Who are you?”
“I am”
If that had been the case, we'd have something to work with. Why wasn't the exchange that plain? I mean, they were going to stone him anyways, right? Why not make it clear for us?
I think he did. But alas, others want to muddy the waters. The “water of the word” is getting dingy.
I was simply pointing out that the texts you cited should not be used as the lens by which we interpret John 8:58. The contexts and grammar were completely different. So the point you were trying to make was an invalid one.It seem that although you view the statement Yeshua made about Himself (relative to Abraham) as obscure, the Pharisses understood it with great clarity…and wanted to execute Him for it:
John 8:58-59
58Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.” 59Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple.It's not a stonable offense to vaguely allude to an eternality, is it?
I'm curious, but have you read the Gospels from start to finish? I hope you are not one who just reads verses here, verses there. There is some very valuable information for our walk in every page. In any case, the point of this is that you must not have understood that the Jews were ready to kill Yeshua for the slightest error. They finally did, but that was according to God's Will. Yeshua was turning the people away from the teachings of the Jewish leaders, and if you fail to see politics and power plays going on, you're missing the boat.If you ever get the chance, pick up the book The Murder of Jesus by John MacArthur. It will reveal some things you may have never realized before. You will see how many things the Jews did that were against their own customs and laws in order to expedite the “trial” of Jesus. You'll also see how the Jews could have stoned Jesus at any time for many small, nitpicky things but they did not because of fear of the people and the political implications.
As far as my point being invalid, I don't think so. Are you saying that all of these things were not in God's plan from the start? Were they just added as Yeshua went along? If so, you're view of God is a limited one.
Yeshua did not use “I am” in anything close to the same manner as God did in Exodus. If he had, you'd have a worthwhile argument. But they were two totally unrelated events and were similar in no way beyond answering a question. Context rules the day in the Bible.
Quote (IM4Truth @ July 14 2007,11:32) Is1:18 Did Jesus not say that the Father and I are one. If Christ has another spirit then the Bible contradicts. But that is not true. There are a lot of Scriptures that have been added. And you have to look back in History who came up with that Doctrine of the trinity. That is why I have said to read “The two Babylons”
Peace Mrs.IM4Truth
Im4Can you enlighten us as to which scriptures were added?
I sure wouldnt want to put my faith in a book that has no credibility!
Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 14 2007,12:38) Quote (kejonn @ July 14 2007,12:21) Forest, trees. “Before Abraham was, I am”. Means he's eternal. No disagreement there. Now that wasn't too hard to fathom, was it? But you'd rather jump through hoops in defense of your theology. Too bad the words written plainly are insufficient. Now if the exchange had gone “Who are you?”
“I am”
If that had been the case, we'd have something to work with. Why wasn't the exchange that plain? I mean, they were going to stone him anyways, right? Why not make it clear for us?
I think he did. But alas, others want to muddy the waters. The “water of the word” is getting dingy.
I was simply pointing out that the texts you cited should not be used as the lens by which we interpret John 8:58. The contexts and grammar were completely different. So the point you were trying to make was an invalid one.It seem that although you view the statement Yeshua made about Himself (relative to Abraham) as obscure, the Pharisses understood it with great clarity…and wanted to execute Him for it:
John 8:58-59
58Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.” 59Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple.It's not a stonable offense to vaguely allude to an eternality, is it?
Hi Is 1.18,
You quote
“58Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”And
“It's not a stonable offense to vaguely allude to an eternality, is it?”
ETERNALITY?
All it says is that he existed before Abraham.
So did Adam and he was not eternal.Christ was from everlasting and the Word was with God in the beginning but they say nothing about not having a beginning himself.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 14 2007,12:38) [quote=kejonn,July 14 2007,12:21]
It seem that although you view the statement Yeshua made about Himself (relative to Abraham) as obscure, the Pharisses understood it with great clarity…and wanted to execute Him for it:John 8:58-59
58Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.” 59Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple.It's not a stonable offense to vaguely allude to an eternality, is it?
I think you fail to see the implications of what Yeshua was saying to them. They had already accused him of having a demon twice (8:48, 52). When he said that Abraham rejoiced to see his day, they became cautious and asked him to clarify. By saying that he was before Abraham and that Abraham knew him, it is likely that they did not grasp that he was claiming eternal life, but something that their law forbidLeviticus 20:27 – 'Now a man or a woman who is a medium or a spiritist shall surely be put to death. They shall be stoned with stones, their bloodguiltiness is upon them.'”
Medium – “A person thought to have the power to communicate with the spirits of the dead”
Spiritism – “The belief that the dead communicate with the living”Now that we see that, go back to verse 52
John 8:52 – The Jews said to Him, “Now we know that You have a demon Abraham died, and the prophets also; and You say, 'If anyone keeps My word, he will never taste of death.'
It is quite obvious that they felt that Yeshua was claiming to have powers to communicate with the long dead Abraham. For this they were going to stone him.
Context is very important in Bible truth.
WJ All I have to say to you is, I wouldn't put my trust in a Doctrine that was invented by a Man like
Quintus Septimus Florens Tertullian.Mrs.IM4Truth
kejonn….Jesus knew he was in the plan of God from the beginning, he never said he was alive at that time. Peter makes it clear to me Jesus was forodained before the foundations of the world (BUT) was manifested in our time.
if Peter know Jesus preexisted he would have Just said he preexisted before the foundations of the world that's all. your posts are good, i like reading then .
peace to you……genenick……maybe you misunderstood me or i didn't explain it right , what i believe is Jesus was in the plan of God in the beginning, God knew what he was going to do, thats true with us also, for whom He forknow them He also predestinated to conformed unto the likes of his son. so we could say we were preordained couldn”t we, but werent manifested until we were born. The Father already had us in His plan another words, before we were born. Its the same thing with Jesus and God revealed to Him who he was and his destine in The Father's plan. No where does it say Jesus knew the Fathers plan before he was born. This happend to Jeremiah the prophet also Jer1:5. Jesus said we will all be taught by God he was too. He grew and learned, and even learned obediance by the things he suffered, which showes he was not all knowing like the decieved trinitarians try to say by equating him with God The Father.
if Jesus had somekind of being before he was created i would like to see where.
the apostle John said if we did not confess Jesus as comming in the flesh we were not of God and said that was the spirit of antichrist, why, because trinitarians are denying that Jesus came into existance as a flesh person . John was not talking about Jesus comming as a preexisting person and then reincarnate some how into flesh. there were those who were already trying to teach that idology the were the gnostics, they belived Jesus was a God that shot out from the pulara a god from god idea. John was fighting the idea of Jesus preexistence, by saying he came (into being) by flesh.
Jesus was indeed preordained but came into existence through flesh and blood, that was Peter's and John's point.thats just the way i see it,..Nick…….gene.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 14 2007,16:40) if Jesus had somekind of being before he was created i would like to see where.
If Jesus was in the plan of God in the beginning I would like to see where….Quote the apostle John said if we did not confess Jesus as comming in the flesh we were not of God and said that was the spirit of antichrist, why, because trinitarians are denying that Jesus came into existance as a flesh person .
Incorrect again. You continue to demonstrate manifest ignorance of the trinity doctine. You need to at least study the fundamentals so your opinions will at least be informed ones.Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 14 2007,16:40) nick……maybe you misunderstood me or i didn't explain it right , what i believe is Jesus was in the plan of God in the beginning, God knew what he was going to do, thats true with us also, for whom He forknow them He also predestinated to conformed unto the likes of his son. so we could say we were preordained couldn”t we, but werent manifested until we were born. The Father already had us in His plan another words, before we were born. Its the same thing with Jesus and God revealed to Him who he was and his destine in The Father's plan. No where does it say Jesus knew the Fathers plan before he was born. This happend to Jeremiah the prophet also Jer1:5. Jesus said we will all be taught by God he was too. He grew and learned, and even learned obediance by the things he suffered, which showes he was not all knowing like the decieved trinitarians try to say by equating him with God The Father. if Jesus had somekind of being before he was created i would like to see where.
the apostle John said if we did not confess Jesus as comming in the flesh we were not of God and said that was the spirit of antichrist, why, because trinitarians are denying that Jesus came into existance as a flesh person . John was not talking about Jesus comming as a preexisting person and then reincarnate some how into flesh. there were those who were already trying to teach that idology the were the gnostics, they belived Jesus was a God that shot out from the pulara a god from god idea. John was fighting the idea of Jesus preexistence, by saying he came (into being) by flesh.
Jesus was indeed preordained but came into existence through flesh and blood, that was Peter's and John's point.thats just the way i see it,..Nick…….gene.
Bro Gene,
I couldn't agree more.It's not a popular teaching, I'm afraid. It's too simple.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 14 2007,16:55) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 14 2007,16:40) if Jesus had somekind of being before he was created i would like to see where.
If Jesus was in the plan of God in the beginning I would like to see where….Quote the apostle John said if we did not confess Jesus as comming in the flesh we were not of God and said that was the spirit of antichrist, why, because trinitarians are denying that Jesus came into existance as a flesh person .
Incorrect again. You continue to demonstrate manifest ignorance of the trinity doctine. You need to at least study the fundamentals so your opinions will at least be informed ones.
Isaiah,I'm disappointed to see that instead of answering the preexistence question asked by Gene, you are posing a question in response. You seem determined for folks to answer your questions, right bro? Maybe answer other's questions like you want them to answer yours.
Also, in defense of Gene, I can tell you as a former Trinitarian, there are MANY Trinitarians who believe different aspects of the Trinitarian doctrine – it depends on who you interview (this goes for C.S. Lewis and Josh McDowell. It also goes for my late Mother and her pastor of 20 years!).
I've heard some of Gene's interpretations of the Trinity doctrine from others before – he is not demonstrating complete ignorance – he is just hilighting other variations of the teaching. I've also heard that Trinitarians do not believe that Jesus came in the flesh (literally) because he is an “incarnation” of God Almighty, himself.
I am aware that there are various “teachings” on the doctrine. And the reason there is not one, set teaching OR definition of the doctrine is because you will not find such in the Scriptures.
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