The Trinity Doctrine

[NickHassan]

Hi gene,
He was the WORD not the THOUGHT.
He was conceived.
Son of God and Son of Man.
Not unique as a man but the same as us except sinless.

[GeneBalthrop]

nick…> to me the word, word, just means express intellence, it was expressed intllengence was with God and expressed intelligence was God. it was this expressed intelligence that that made and brought forth everything that has intellengence in it including man and is expressed as light of man that enlightens every man comming into the world. the word to is not a person but intelligence. a God given intelligence. which every thing that has life has.

and yes he (Jesus) was concieved, in the mind of God before the foundation of the world, not literally alive until he came into being.not until. that why Peter said He was ordained before the foundations of the world (BUT) was manifested (brought in being) in our time. The Father new all along what he was going to do, but brought it about at the right time.

an i believe we are also son of God and son of man.

Jesus was not unique at except his conception was. and as far as having no sin you are right but why did he have no sin would be my question if he is exactly as i am, the answer is just like the old blessing prayer :” the lord bless you and keep you and make his face to shine on you and be gracious to you and lift up his countinance on you and give you Peace, Jesus had all these things in his life. Jesus had no sin because the Father keep Him from it , like it say's he hath keep me from my iniquites. I cant remember where but i think it's in the psalms somewhere.we need to remember Jesus was a special person that God for ordained, Just like Jeremiah the prophet was. God formed him in his mothers womb also and said he knew him before he ever was born too. There is nothing impossible for The Father. And because we have a Father like him there is nothing impossible for us.

The Father and Jesus wants us all to realize what the Father did for Jesus He can do for us.

[Laurel]

Gene,
Once again you speak as the Spirit that dwells in you. You are a light that is not put under a basket, but it is placed in the window for all the world to see. Awesome posts!

[Worshipping Jesus]

Kejonn

That was the best dance yet friend! But I cant let you get away with it!

You say…

Quote

YHWH is the source, Yeshua is the means as the Word. –snipped other verses, redundant — and… The source and the means are not the same. YHWH is the only source of creation. All derives from Him. Yeshua as the Word (or wisdom) carried out the creation, but was not the source of creation. Just as my plans originate from me, I must have a means to express or carry them out. Plans are useless until they are carried out.

So in other words the scriptures that I quote do not mean what they say?

“None like him”, “By Myself”. “None Else” “Alone” does not mean what it says?

You say “there was a “means” with the source? You call the Word “a means”. But John calls the Word “God”.

Now I am not sure now if you are a Unitarian or an Arian, since you mentioned plans!

Since you snipped them out, I will paste them back and let you take another look and explain to me “Please” friend how these Hebrew scriptures show that any “other being” other than “God”, “YHWH” created the heavens?

Isa 44:24
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; *that stretcheth forth the heavens alone*; that spreadeth abroad the earth *by myself*;

Isa 45:18
For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: *I am the LORD; and there is none else*.

Isa 46:9
Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and *there is none else*; I am God, and *there is none like me*,

These scriptures bear out that YHWH “By himself”, he alone created the heavens and there is none other!

How do you explain this?

Also YHWH says there is no saviour beside him…

Isa 43:11
I, even I, am the LORD; and *beside me there is no saviour*.

Isa 45:21
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD (YHWH)? and there is no God else beside me; a just *God and a Saviour*; there is *none beside me*.

Hsa 13:4
Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: *for there is no saviour beside me*.

There is “None beside me, beside me there is none”.

YHWH is still our saviour and was himself pierced for us!

Is 1:18 brings this out very well. Which in my opinion is supportive of Johns view in Jn 1:1 and 20:28.

https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=1311

Also this sight gives some good info on the God of the OT scriptures we call YHWH.

http://www.eadshome.com/Jesuslessons.htm

Kejonn you didnt answer my questions.

In light of Hebrew scriptures, and especially the fact that Paul a (Hebrew of the Hebrews) and John (the Beloved Desciple), being strict Monotheist, how could they place Yeshua in the creation of all things this way?

How do you say “there is a means”, Yahshua, and “a source”, Father in light of these scriptures?

Surely they knew the Hebrew scriptures. This must have shocked the Jewish people to the core!

Jn 1:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God. (the us and our)
3 *All things were made by him*; and *without him* was *not any thing made that was made*.

BTW. KJV.

Since John and Paul and the writer of Hebrews unambiguously claimed that “By, Through”, (makes no difference), Yahshua all things were made that were made and without him was not anything made that was made, then “you” have a contradiction or Jesus truly is God!

How do you explain this? Please dont dance!

Col 1:16 KJV
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

NIV
17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

ESV
17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

NASB
17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

You know if we didnt know the context of Col 1:17, then we would think he was God!

Thats because he is!

Blessings!  

[NickHassan]

Hi Gene,
So the intelligence was with God? naah

[kejonn]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 09 2007,18:33)

Kejonn That was the best dance yet friend! But I cant let you get away with it! You say… Quote YHWH is the source, Yeshua is the means as the Word. –snipped other verses, redundant — and… The source and the means are not the same. YHWH is the only source of creation. All derives from Him. Yeshua as the Word (or wisdom) carried out the creation, but was not the source of creation. Just as my plans originate from me, I must have a means to express or carry them out. Plans are useless until they are carried out. So in other words the scriptures that I quote do not mean what they say? “None like him”, “By Myself”. “None Else” “Alone” does not mean what it says? You say “there was a “means” with the source? You call the Word “a means”. But John calls the Word “God”. Now I am not sure now if you are a Unitarian or an Arian, since you mentioned plans! Since you snipped them out, I will paste them back and let you take another look and explain to me “Please” friend how these Hebrew scriptures show that any “other being” other than “God”, “YHWH” created the heavens?

I snipped your other verses out because they all pretty much said the same thing and were thus redundant. And John calls the Logos God. Translators say “Word” but since we are not sure that “Word” is the absolute best rendering, we will work in the realm of Logos. You can look HERE for the potential other translations of Logos. Please do not get hung up on “Word” because that alone is a very limited way to describe who Yeshua potentially was before he was conceived of Man. Anyway, such is the subject of the Logos thread.

Suffice it to say, after reading what Logos can mean, including Word, that you get the undeniable idea that Logos originated from God. Simply put, Yeshua is the Expression of God, the Revealer of God, because he is the Logos of God. He was the only one to truly reveal God to us in a way we could understand as he was born of the Holy Spirit.

Logos then proceeds to become the Light (John 1:4). Both the Logos and the Light point to God, for how can one see in the darkness? Therefore, the theme of Yeshua as the Revealer of God continues.

Quote

Isa 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; *that stretcheth forth the heavens alone*; that spreadeth abroad the earth *by myself*; Isa 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: *I am the LORD; and there is none else*. Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and *there is none else*; I am God, and *there is none like me*, These scriptures bear out that YHWH “By himself”, he alone created the heavens and there is none other! How do you explain this?

Quite simply. The Logos of God, the Expression of God, the Word of God emanates from God and carries out the process of creation. Are you supposing that the Logos was somehow apart from God as Yeshua is today? Where do you get that idea?

God was the source of all creation, His Word went forth and carried out the act of creation. I think people struggle with this idea because they want to see Yeshua pre-existing just as he is today. Yet we have no indication of that being the case.

Quote

Also YHWH says there is no saviour beside him… Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and *beside me there is no saviour*.

That horse has been beaten to death. Salvation does not derive from Yeshua, it is carried out through Yeshua from the source, YHWH. Therefore there is no conflict because YHWH is saying that He is the only true source of salvation. Does Yeshua do anything of his own accord? No, he can only do what His Father guides him to do, can only do the Will of his Father. Again, here Yeshua carries out the expression of God; that is, to save. YHWH is the source, Yeshua is the means.

Quote

Is 1:18 brings this out very well. Which in my opinion is supportive of Johns view in Jn 1:1 and 20:28.

As the Revealer of God, John 20:28 makes perfect sense. Yeshua is the image of the invisible God (Col. 1:15). God reveals Himself through what we see, and Yeshua was the ultimate representation of God on earth.

I have often told people that is they wanted to know the character, love, and personality of God, read John.

I have no problem with any of this. What I have a problem with is taking all of what we see in scripture, putting a pagan label on it, and saying “this is our God, world!”. Why don't we let scripture speak for itself to show us who God is? Is the Bible not sufficient?

No, instead, men came along, formed committees and counsels, and made an image out of God that fit their reasoning and then stuck an extra-biblical name on it. They turned the God of heaven into some three-headed monster so they could exclaim to all the world that their God was one.

Hundreds of men took the writings of a handful of God-inspired men, argued and debated over them, and came up with something called the Trinity. This puts to shame the original words penned via the inspiration of God. Do you believe that the books of the Bible were authored by groups of men who argued and debated over the content? No, they allowed God to form the words in their heart and minds and recorded them for all the world to cherish.

So why then should I take the words of these other men, those who had no hand in putting to paper the words God had for us? Should I believe them over what God reveals to me in the Bible? Did not Yeshua himself tell us we would have a Helper that would teach us all things? Therefore, why must I adhere to some other writings and ideas that have a very pagan flavor to them?

That, my friend, is why I call the Trinity false. It is not of God, it is not in His written words to us, and it is something that the original authors of the Bible would rebel against. If God had meant for us to take this Trinity as our foundation, He would have told us thus in the inspired words of the men He chose to instruct us.

Let me ask you: do we not accuse Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons (perhaps others) of using other writings than the Bible to form their theology? And we call them cultists and heretical. What then is the Trinity if not extra-biblical doctrine?!? Are Trinitarians immune from being cultists and hereti
cs then, although they adhere to some other ideal not expressly written in the Bible?

Shame upon shame. The Bible is the only book I need to know my God and my Yeshua.

Quote

Kejonn you didnt answer my questions. In light of Hebrew scriptures, and especially the fact that Paul a (Hebrew of the Hebrews) and John (the Beloved Desciple), being strict Monotheist, how could they place Yeshua in the creation of all things this way?

The Logos carried out. The Logos came from God. Please do not confuse who Yeshua was with who Yeshua is.

Quote

Since John and Paul and the writer of Hebrews unambiguously claimed that “By, Through”, (makes no difference), Yahshua all things were made that were made and without him was not anything made that was made, then “you” have a contradiction or Jesus truly is God! How do you explain this? Please dont dance!

No dance. I'm not trying to prove an extra-biblical doctrine, so why should I dance?

All things come from God. The Logos came from God. Yes, Logos was God because Logos came from God. What comes from God is of God. But we don't know what Logos really was before he came to earth and took on flesh. He was Logos, he was wisdom (Prov 8:22). But we do have a better idea of who Yeshua is today. He is the Son of God who is seated at the right hand of the Father in heaven, he is my means to the Father and my ultimate sacrifice that cleanses my sins and presents me to God upon resurrection with washed robes.

Since my Bible does not say that my God is a three-in-one God, I disbelieve a doctrine that says He is. That is the stuff of fantasy and vivid imagination. God is God, He resists us putting another name on Him. He is not Trinity. He is God, He is YHWH. To call Him anything else is blasphemous.

Quote

Col 1:16 KJV For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. NIV 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. ESV 17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. NASB 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. You know if we didnt know the context of Col 1:17, then we would think he was God! Thats because he is! Blessings!

That was an odd statement. “If we didn't know the context of Col 1:17, then we would think he was God!” Did you mean to say that? Would most people? I'll let my 8 year old read it, say not a word, and ask what he thinks. I'll then let my 17 year do the same, say not a word, and ask her who she thinks that is.

In any case, I've already shown my thoughts above. The Logos was the means by which all things were created. Created for him? Yes, as the Son of God, God would create everything for him. If God would do the following for Man, how much more would He do for the son of God and Son of Man?

Psalm 8:4-8 – What is man that You take thought of him, And the son of man that You care for him? Yet You have made him a little lower than God, And You crown him with glory and majesty! You make him to rule over the works of Your hands; You have put all things under his feet, All sheep and oxen, And also the beasts of the field, The birds of the heavens and the fish of the sea, Whatever passes through the paths of the seas.

Yeshua, as Son of God, inherits all the Father created through the Logos of God.

Hebrews 1:2 – in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

Love God – Love People!
kejonn

[GeneBalthrop]

wj…. the answer to what you addressed to kejonn is simple

Eloim who we call The Alnighty God… in a uniplural word in the hebrew text, why, because the one being is composed of seven spirits, Kind of like we are, we all have arms,eves,legs,hands, feet,ect, but we still are only ony person and even the church is called the body of Christ , having many members but still is one body.

the Seven Spirits of God go out into all of His creation and perform The Fathers will. Jesus had these in him, but because he had them in Him dosen't make him Almighty God.

God can put His spirits in whom ever He choses He can cohabit any flesh body He desires and effect His will on them, infact that is exactly what he does, Didn't Jesus say no man can come to me except the Father Draw Him. All salvation is from one God, Just as all creation comes from one Being composed of Seven Spirits the Elohim who is the One and Only True God, and it is this One God who does it all that He might be all and in all. peace to you… gene

[Laurel]

“God was the source of all creation, His Word went forth and carried out the act of creation. I think people struggle with this idea because they want to see Yeshua pre-existing just as he is today. Yet we have no indication of that being the case.”
kejonn's quote
The Word and Y'shua are one. Understanding the Word gives us “every” indication the He is the Word. He existed because He is the Word. In every act of His life, every Word that flowed from His lips, every Word that came to be, through His life. He gave life to the Word.
Please do not separate Y'shua from the Word. Scripture dosen't do that. When explaining truths to people try to stick to the Word without human interpretation. Eventually they will see it from the true perspective of the Word. That's why we were given to have it.

Yes you are correct when you say He was given all through the Word, but you also must see He is the fulfillment of it. That is why the Father sent Him. To give full meaning of. We can compare it with how He lived and will never find a contradiction or separation between Y'shua, the Father, and the Word.
If you think you found one, post it and I will show you the error.

[TimothyVI]

Quote (kejonn @ July 09 2007,11:54)

*sigh* I had worked for many minutes on a reply and my browser crashed. Oh well, I will condense my answers in this reply. Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 07 2007,11:33) Quite obviously Isa 9:6 is a messianic prophecy. It’s also obvious that Yeshua is ascribed the title Mighty God (Heb: el gibbor) in this verse. In the very next chapter of Isaiah YHWH is given this title. As far as I’m aware it’s the only other time Isaiah used it. That’s significant, don’t you think? I originally had a list of many (I think 20+) Hebrew names with their meanings. What people seem to overlook in this verse is that it says “And His name will be called” not “And He will be”. Names have significance Or a least used to) among Jews. Here is a shortened list to get my point across: Isaiah – “salvation of God” Hosea – “salvation” Eilam – “forever, eternal” Eilad – “God is forever” Ezra – “helper” Kemuel – “helper of God” Menachem – “comforter” Nachman – “comforter” Amiel – “God of my people” Chaniel – “grace of God” Ezekiel – “strength of God” Hadriel – “splendor of Jehovah” Jehu – “He is God” Kemuel – “helper of God” Micah – “who resembles God” Nuriel – “light or fire of God” Othniel – “God's strength, God's lion” Ziv – “radiance, brilliance or light of God” While we're on names, Matthew 1:23 tells us that Jesus' name was to be Immanuel, “God with us”. What happened there? Instead he became Yeshua, “Lord who is Salvation”. Who decided to change his name? None of the names in Isaiah 9:6 made it into Yeshua. Isaiah 9:6 may apply to the second coming of Christ, but we will not be sure until then, will we? Beyond that, why are we so certain that Isaiah 9:6 is about Yeshua at all? It sounds good but it is obscure as far as what we know about Yeshua. Quote Are the titles “God” and “Son of God” polar opposites? I don’t see why they should be considered that. Jesus was both “man” and the “Son of man”. Being the son of man does not negate Him being a man, does it? The Jews understood His self-ascription of the title Son of God as a blasphemous claim to being “God” (John 10:33 cf. John 19:7). Since the conclusion (Yeshua is not God) is implied or already assumed in the premise (Son of God and God are antithetical) you are using another circular argument…. Angels are sons of God: Gen 6:2, Gen 6:4, Job 1:6, Job 2:1, Job 38:7. Men can become sons of God: Matt 5:9, Luke 20:36, Romans 8:14, Romans 8:19, Eph. 3:26. Not the only begotten Son of God, but sons of God nonetheless. Being the sons of God does not negate us or the angels from being God, does it?  Your argument, not mine. See above. Quote You have deftly avoided addressing the statement Thomas made in John 20:28 by introducing a red herring (another logical fallacy, they are already starting to pile up!). Trinitarians have no issue with what Thomas said to Yeshua, as it is completely accordant with their theology. If he said “you, Jesus, are the only person who is my God” I think we might have a dilemma on our hands. But he did not. Why did the other Apostles not make similar exclamations of the supposed Deity of Christ in the 40 days between his resurrection and ascension? Why was this not recorded in the other 3 Gospels? If it is all you claim it to be, it would have surely been recorded again. It is quite possible that it was not all it seems and others saw it as insignificant. If it was as others think, it would have been a “shocker” in that time. Rather, there is a more logical explanation for what Thomas did. First, we all know that God is invisible. The Apostles were Jewish, so they had the Jewish mindset, and they knew that no one had ever seen God. So why all of the sudden would they claim to seeing God now? 1 Timothy 1:17 – Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen. Romans 1:20 – For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. So we see that God is invisible. We can see His works in creation, but He can also be seen in His Son, Jesus. How then can someone look at Jesus and say “My God” if God is invisible? Colossians 1:15 – He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. With that in mind, we know that there is no way to see God, but we can see His image in the Son, Yeshua. The next verses then take on new meaning. It also means that we go to the Father through our intercessor, Jesus Christ. John 14:6 – Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. Ephesians 2:18 – for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. 1 Timothy 2:5 – For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, John 17:25-26 –  “O righteous Father, although the world has not known You, yet I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me; and I have made Your name known to them, and will make it known, so that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.” Before Thomas stood the resurrected Yeshua, the image of the invisible God. Image does not mean he is God, because an image is not the same as the actual entity reflected. Is my reflection in the mirror me? Is a photograph of myself me? No they are only images of me. It would therefore be quite plausible to exclaim “My God” to Yeshua knowing full well that he was the ultimate representative of God in the flesh and also knowing that he was the mediator between God and man. If this is not the case, how else could you resolve this verse against John 17:3 and 20:17? John has gone out of his way in showing Yeshua as the “revealer of God” all throughout his Gospel. That is what John 1:1-18 is really all about. The Word was the expression of God, and that expression became flesh and walked among us. Quote What do you think Thomas meant when he addressed Yeshua as “my Lord and my God”? Is Yeshua your Lord and God too? And if not does it concern you that Thomas’ opinion of Yeshua is divergent from your own? Yeshua is my Lord, Yahweh is my God. It only concerns me that Yeshua never claimed he was God. Yeshua accepted such actions and similar from others, but never once demanded or encouraged it. God told His people that He was to be worshiped, Yeshua never did the same. In fact, he said to worship the Father (Matt 4:10, Luke 4:8, John 4:21). My question is why Thomas di d not fall to his knees and worship if he truly felt he was in the presence of God Himself. Would you not? Tell me, what do you think Israel (Jacob) was doing in Genesis 47:31? Finally, what some people also seem to latch on to is Yeshua's words to Thomas after his exclamation. They fail to see the context. John 20:24-28 – But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. So the other disciples were saying to him, “We have seen the Lord!” But he said to them, “Unless I see in His hands the imprint of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.”After eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors having been shut, and stood in their midst and said, “Peace be with you.” Then He said to Thomas, “Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing.” Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.” Thomas did not believe that Yeshua was alive. He would only believe if he could touch and see the wounds from the cross. When he saw Yeshua, he indeed believed he was alive and in their midst! Yeshua's response is reflected in Romans 10:9 Romans 10:9 – that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; Thomas did the very thing Paul spoke of – he confessed with his mouth that Yeshua was his Lord and believed that God had raised him from the dead! “Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.” Quote Titus 2:13 is actually very solid verse IMO. The combination of the Granville Sharp (rule VI) construction and the context (who’s appearing are we expecting??) mean that there is only one person in view (Jesus Christ) and He is unmistakably described as “our great God and Savior”. That's the only plausible conclusion. What, in you opinion, is it about the grammar and context of this verse that would lend support to Titus 2:13 speaking of the father? Should we not aim to adopt the most likely interpretation? If Paul is making a strong case that Yeshua is God, why did he not start out ANY of his other letters with such a proclamation? In fact, the letter to Titus shows the distinct separation. Was Paul double-minded? Let's hope not, for our sake. This would be further evidence that the translation is in question. Romans 1:7-8 – to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, because your faith is being proclaimed throughout the whole world. 1 Corinthians 1:3 –  Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Corinthians 2:2-3 – Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort Galatians 1:3-4 – Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for our sins so that He might rescue us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father Ephesians 1:2-3 – Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ Philippians 1:2 – Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Colossians 1:2-3 – To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ who are at Colossae: Grace to you and peace from God our Father. We give thanks to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you 1 Thessalonians 1:1-3 – Paul and Silvanus and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace. We give thanks to God always for all of you, making mention of you in our prayers; constantly bearing in mind your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the presence of our God and Father 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 – Paul and Silvanus and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Timothy 1:1 – Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus according to the commandment of God our Savior, and of Christ Jesus, who is our hope 2 Timothy 1:2 – To Timothy, my beloved son: Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord. Titus 1:4 -To Titus, my true child in a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior. Philemon 1:3 – Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. So, is Titus 2:13 still strong in light of EVERY greeting from Paul? Oh, and don't beat the dead horse by bringing up the “savior” issue seen in 1 Timothy 1:1 and Titus 1:4 – we all know that God has granted the power to save to Yeshua through his sacrificial death on the cross. It is still from God through His son Yeshua! Amen! Quote No. I meant Jude 4. My mistake. Jude 4 For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. Please provide scriptural evidence that God said He was to be our only Master and/or Lord (Not LORD). Quote Jude calls Jesus Christ “our only Master and Lord”. Quite a bold assertion. Don’t you think a statement like this one might have raised the eyebrows of those who understood YHWH to be unipersonal, and were blasphemy-conscious? This is exactly the type of language used by Jews to describe their God, YHWH. Your speculations of blasphemy and what you consider to be language the Jews would use of YHWH are noted and brushed aside. No evidence of Jesus=God here. Beyond that, you supplied yet another verse that has different translations. KJV – For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ YLT –  4for there did come in unobserved certain men, long ago having been written beforehand to this judgment, impious, the grace of our God perverting to lasciviousness, and our only Master, God, and Lord — Jesus Christ — denying, What does kurios mean here? Lord. What is it supposed to mean, YHWH? It was also used in 1 Peter 3:6 to show Sarah called Abraham lord. It was used as Lord, lord, master, sir, Sir, and “misc” according the Strong's. –Yawn– on the Hebrews 1:3 ou tside sources. Yet another verse that can read whatever you want depending on if you want to cling to KJV, NASB, or any other translation to try to prove your point. Why are the majority of “Trinity proving” verses also the ones that happen to be translated differently in the various versions? I'd hate to have to hang my theology on such Bible version jumping games. Hebrews 1:8 cannot be reconciled without looking to 1:9 so I snipped your stuff on 1:8. 1:9 is the more important verse. Quote Yeshua having His Father as His God post resurrection is perfectly in keeping with what the trinity teaches. Yeshua was born under the law (Gal 4:4) and is subject to all of it (including the first two commandments), and therefore takes His Father as His God, unless He transgress that law. Yeshua did not unbecome a man at the resurrection, He remains one for all eternity, therefore as a man it is rightful that His Father remain His God. Also, the notion of two persons rightly called God is again consistent with trinitarian thought (two ontologically-separate Gods is not, though). We would expect to see this type of language used if the doctrine is true, and it’s not exceptionally uncommon to see it (Genesis 19:24, Zechariah 2:8-9 Isaiah 48:12-16, Hosea 1:7, Hosea 5, Hebrews 1:8…). I’m beginning to wonder how well you understand the doctrine you have rejected. Give this explanation to the new Christian or seeking unbeliever and you'll find out why the growth of Islam – a religion that has some nasty fanatics —  is outpacing the growth of Christianity. “Listen Bobby, Jesus is God, but he has a God, the Father”. Bobby looks confused. “Are there 2 Gods then?” “No, only one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit”. Bobby is really confused. “That's three Gods, not one”. “Well, actually, God is not 3 Gods, He is one God with three ways to represent Himself, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.” Bobby seems to be getting a handle on the whole idea. “Cool, but if they are all the same God, how can Jesus have a God, if he is that God?” “No Bobby, Jesus is but one way He represents Himself. When He is Jesus, He has a God, the Father”. Bobby looks confused again. “Why would God use three ways to represent Himself?” Silence. Quote If you take this verse taken in isolation then you might have found a valid point here. But sound Biblical exegesis is not done in a vacuum. Other NT creation texts, like 1 Corinthians 8:6 and Hebrews 1:2 for instance, show that Yeshua worked in association with the Father. Hebrews 1:10 does show that Yeshua was the actual executor of the Creation though. Kejonn, it seems to me that you motivation here is simply to obfuscate, using red herrings in order to avoid the impact of the verses. You are constantly equivocating in this post. Instead of just inferring some (usually unfounded) awkwardness into these proof texts, are we going to see you address the content in the verses? Why do you personally think the writer of Hebrews applied Psalms 102:25, a verse that manifestly references YHWH, to Yeshua and claimed that it was an utterance directed to the Son by the Father? Why would he do that, if Yeshua was not YHWH? And also why would he record these sentiments about Yeshua: You say I am bring in “red herrings” and such. I'm merely pointing out the absurdity of the doctrine that has many books written trying to explain it. I was given a book called Forgotten Trinity (it was called that because most people don't even have a clue what it is, the book even says so). 224 pages and the author states that he has not gone in-depth into the doctrine. 224 pages to describe something that seemingly should be explainable in a few verses? I do not deny Yeshua's pre-existance. Does this prove he is YHWH? No, there are many verses that show that the Son and Father were responsible for Creation. The Word, the “right hand”,  was the means by which God carried out His actions. Again, no proof here that YHWH = Yeshua, just that the pre-earth Yeshua was the instrument of creation. Does pre-earth Yeshua = post-Easter Yeshua? That is the most important question to answer. Quote Another red herring. More obfuscation. More equivocation. Yeshua refers to Himself as the “First and Last”, this is made clear in the proceeding verse where the speaker says “I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore”. Revelation 2:9 reads thusly: “And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: The first and the last, who was dead, and has come to life, says this”. If this is not Yeshua, then who? There is no question that it is the risen Lord who is the “first and last”. It is also true that the title “first and last” belongs to YHWH alone (Isa 44:6). Why won’t you address that particular issue kejonn? Yes this verse does support oneness. But because it does, it does not automatically follow that it is thereby incompatible with trinitarianism. Both camps agree that Yeshua is YHWH so it is logical that there would be commonality in the texts they appeal to. So you are using faulty reasoning again (non sequitur). You like red herrings, don't ya? Isaiah 44:6 does not say that “first and last” belongs to Him only. You've read that into the verse, which is eisegesis. The verse says “I am the first and I am the last, and there is no God besides Me.” It does not say “I am the first and I am the last, and only I can have that said of me”. He said that there is no God beside Him. Again, I do not disbelieve in an eternal Logos, so this does not prove what you'd like for it to. What color is your herring? Besides, what is Yeshua claiming in Revelation 2:8? “The first and the last, who was dead, and has come to life”. Are we automatically to assume that Revelation 2:8 looks back to Isaiah 44:6? Do you not see some significance in that “who was dead, and who has come to life” was given immediately after “the first and the last”? 1 Corinthians 15:45 – So also it is written, “The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. Romans 5:12 – Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned– Again, the evidence for Trinity is not as strong as you'd believe. It could easily relate to the above verses, or it could just be Yeshua's death and resurrection. Neither provides a concrete case. Quote Revelation 1:8 8″I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” Revelation 22:12-12 12″Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. 13″I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.” The Alpha and Omega is coming quickly kejonn, make sure you have a true understanding of Who Yeshua is….. I am very aware. Yeshua is not YHWH. He i s the only begotten Son of God. Says so in every Bible I can find. I don't have to look to extra-biblical doctrines to understand my Lord and Savior. Again, where does the third member of the Trinity come in? Why do you keep forgetting the Holy Spirit? BTW, “Alpha and Omega” were titles exclusive to God, and not given to Yeshua. People try to say it was so in Revelation 22:13, but the context does not support this view. Three people speak in Revelation 22: an angel, John, and Jesus. The last one to speak before verse 13 was the angel. Are we to then assume that the angel was the “Alpha and Omega”? I do find one thing interesting. Part of Revelation 22:13 refers back to Isaiah 40:10 and Isaiah 62:11. Pay attention to the words of those verses. Isaiah 40:10 – Behold, the Lord GOD will come with might, With His arm ruling for Him Behold, His reward is with Him And His recompense before Him. Isaiah 62:11 – Behold, the LORD has proclaimed to the end of the earth, say to the daughter of Zion, “Lo, your salvation comes; Behold His reward is with Him, and His recompense before Him.” Quote It’s obvious that the speaker in verse 12 also speaks in verse 13. In verse 12, the speaker states that he is “coming quickly”. Since we have no explicit or implicit recording of an expectation of the Father or an angel doing this, and numerous records of Yeshua doing this (including verse 20 from the same chapter), it stands to reason that this is Yeshua speaking in verse 13. If you disagree with this please tell me on what grounds. I noticed that before getting to that point in your post. On the surface then, it is a strong indication that this is Yeshua speaking. But look back to a verse that is much closer and therefore the context remains in Revelation 22 Revelation 22:6-9 – And he said to me, “These words are faithful and true”; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place. “And behold, I am coming quickly. Blessed is he who heeds the words of the prophecy of this book.” I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these things. But he said to me, “Do not do that I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book. Worship God.” It was the angel sent by the God of the spirits and prophets who spoke, thereby speaking on behalf of God, not Yeshua. John breaks the angels narrative in verse 8 by worshiping the angel, but the angel refuses worship and picks the narrative back up in verse 9. The angel stops speaking on behalf of God at verse 13. Quote Another red herring. Another non sequitur. Just because the Holy Spirit is not often in view in Revelation (relative to the Father and Son), it’s not evidence against the veracity of the trinity. Using this same logic, Andrew’s low profile in the book of John (relative to Peter, James and John) would disprove he was an apostle. Your unspoken assertion here is that trinitarians rely on the book of Revelation for their pneumatology, but they do not. If the entire Bible comprise only of this one book, you would have a valid point here. But there are 66 book in the Bible, not one, and trinitarians source their theology from many passages in many books. We know the Father is distinct. We know the Son is distinct. Where do we see that the Holy Spirit is anything but that which empowers God, Yeshua, and God's people? It is our common bond, not a separate entity, it has absolutely no will of its own. I can come more to grips with Yeshua and YHWH being equal than I can the Holy Spirit because I see absolutely no proof it is ever separate from God. I see the Holy Spirit as an extension of who God is, not an embodiment of another facet of God. Quote Actually it’s the only occurrence of the word in all translations of the NT. That’s because the only one NT writer used the word (Paul), and he only used it once. BTW, I would love you to deal with the verse “as we have it”. How do you personally interpret Colossians 2:9? “For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Deity in spiritual form”. Is there any doubt that this would be the case for the Son of God? Do my offspring not carry my DNA? Why would the only human to have ever been born of the Holy Spirit not have full indwelling of the Holy Spirit? Has anyone ever seen the Holy Spirit? Yet my son is not me, and the Son of God is not the Father. I go back to some other verses John 1:16 – For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. Ephesians 3:19 –  and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God. The reason the two Greek words “theotes somatikos” (both used only Col. 2:9) are used in relation to Yeshua is likely rather simple: is there not but one begotten Son of God? We are only children of God through adoption, so we do not compare to the only begotten of God and Man, Yeshua. He was the only man to be born with the Holy Spirit, the rest of us are born of this world. Quote Clever….well not really. The Logos (the pre-incarnate Jesus) was with the Father. The Logos always existed in intimate communion with the Father. That’s what the Greek in John 1:1 bears out. And as I mentioned before the non-mention of the Holy Spirit is not evidence of anything in particular. I, as a trinitarian, do not see John 1:1 as any kind of verification of the trinity doctrine, so I personally do not attempt to prove the doctrine using it. But I do use it to prove the deity of Yeshua. I do not disagree with this. I will leave any further discussion of Logos to the thread dedicated to it. Quote I would like to see you extend your personal interpretation. What do you think it means that ho Logos “was God”? What does John 1:1 mean to you? See above. Quote In the Bible wives are commanded to be their husbands subservient. And yet they are not thereby lower beings. Consider 1 Corinthians 15:27. We are the body of Christ, Yeshua is the head of that body. Need I say more? Quote Find one verse in the Bible which proves Yeshua is lesser in His nature than the Father. Bear in mind that scriptures that show He is a man will not suffice. Trinitarians readily accept that He is also a man. So this would be proof positive of humanity, not proof negative of deity. John 10:29-30 – My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one.” I included verse because I knew you'd say something of it. Even my Bible, the Ryrie Study Bible, which has many Trinitarian footnotes, says in relation to verse 30: The Father and Son are in perfect unity in their natures and actions, but the neuter form of “one” rules out the meaning they are one person This quote from Ryrie does not disagree with Trinitarian theology, nor do I disagree with the assessment. But perfect unity in nature and actions does not mean equality because Yeshua himself said that his Father was greater than all. Verse 30 fits in rather well with more of Yeshua's words in John 17:22-23 John 17:22-23 –  “The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me. This is an incredible verse! Many hang on the OT scriptures that God will not give His glory to another (Is. 42:8) to prove that Yeshua was part of a Trinity yet here not only does Yeshua say he has been given glory, he then passes it on to us!! And just as Yeshua and the Father are one, we are to be one. So if we are one (the body of Christ), and Christ is head of the body, we are one with him. If Yeshua and God are one, and we are one with Christ, how can there be any separation? The answer is the Spirit: 1 Corinthians 12:11-12 – But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills. For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ. So does that then make us equal to God? NO! So then neither does the statement in John 10:30 mean that Yeshua and YHWH are equal in all. Yeshua plainly states his Father is greater than all. Quote Question: is woman less human than man by virtue of her subservience to her husband? No. But by your same reasoning, we are equal to Yeshua. Do you claim such equality? Be careful, because if you say Yeshau is equal to YHWH, then by extension, we are equal to YHWH. “My Father is greater than all”. Quote It just might be, kejonn, that John’s intention was simply to convey something about ho Logos (the prehuman Jesus) and ton Theon (God the Father). The non-mention of the Holy Spirit is not valid evidence against the trinity in the same sense that a non mention of an apostle at an event recorded in a gospel is not proof against them being one. You have committed a non sequitur fallacy here in that your premise (the Holy Spirit is not mentioned in John 1:1-14) bears no direct relationship to your conclusion (the trinity is false). Please provide scriptural evidence that the Holy Spirit should even be included as “God the Holy Spirit” in the Trinity. As I travel down this road of discovery, I see that people go back and forth over the Deity of Yeshua, but they keep leaving out the third member of the Trinity. Why is that? Quote John 17:5 records an awareness of something that occurred “before the world was”: “Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was. (John 17:5) How do you explain the fact that Yeshua appears to be reminiscing here about glory shared with the Father before the world was? Once again your explanation categorically fails to take account of any of the detail in the text. When are we going to see you address the text and give your personal interpretation. It would be nice to have an exegesis from you at some point in this post. Once again you've missed the point. I never said anything about what was, I speak about what is. Yeshua also asked “My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me” (Matthew 26:39). So we cannot be sure that the exact same glory was indeed restored. Do you have scriptural proof that it has? And does 17:5 say Yeshua had equal glory with God? He merely states “The glory I had with you”. It seems that angels also have glory with God Luke 9:26 –  “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when He comes in His glory, and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels. So there is no definitive proof that Yeshua and YHWH share equal glory. Quote Really? Where in the NT do we read of Yeshua “emptying Himself” of things while on earth? –SNIP– not really important Good stuff. And I won't disagree. This was a case of me seeing more than what was in front of my face. Would Logos not have a spiritual form, as he came from God? Just curious, but how does the “form of God” differ from the “image of God”. Or do they? And how does this then relate 2 Corinthians 3:18 – But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit. Romans 8:29 – For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; Quote Interesting. Notwithstanding the fact that He is now a man forever, what specifically is lacking? I was hoping you could tell me . Quote He was given ALL authority on Heaven and Earth: Matthew 28:18 18And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. (It’s interesting that Yeshua made this statement after some were doubtful about worshiping Him…..) I don't know that they were doubtful about worshiping him. They were doubtful about something, but we can't be sure it was worship they were doubting. Maybe it was though because I'm sure the Apostles were consummate Jews and remember that scripture told them that worship was for YHWH alone. Again, Yeshua never once told others to worship him. He directed all worship to his Father. He accepted worship without a word, but he neither encouraged or discouraged it. –SNIP–Many verses about Lordship, authority, etc.– Inheritance will do that for y ou . Again, it had to be given, it was not his to take. If Yeshua was God, he would not have to be given anything, would he? It would be his by default. He will share the Father's throne according to Revelation. But here's the kicker: why does this make Yeshua 1/3 of the Trinity? Simple answer: Christianity does not want to be known as polytheistic or henotheistic. I started a thread about whether or not Christianity was either of those, and the answers were either vague or “no”. Trinitarians vehemently claim to be monotheistic, but nobody is buying it. Only the Trinitarians themselves. Again, it is one reason why many Jews cannot be reached. I may return to my “Body of Christ” thread because I thought I was onto something about the way that God could be represented but I ran up against 1 Cor. 8:6 and I hit a brick wall. That one verse is stronger in opposition to the Trinity than any verse that supposedly supports the Trinity. How can you refute “One God, the Father”? Quote YHWH incarnate died for our sins (John 19:37). The value is more than enough to pay for the sins of all man since the beginning of mankind. What value is there in simply an anointed man’s death? Is it enough? While I won't agree on the “YHWH incarnate” part, I don't agree that he was merely an “anointed man” either. He was the Son of God, the One and Only, born of Man and God, perfect in his walk and nature. Would that not make him unique and worthy to take on the sins of the world? In fact, to me, being God — who cannot die in the first place – would be less valuable. What value is there in the death of one who cannot die? Perhaps you think it was the human portion that died and that was enough, but was it his earthly body that took the sin, or his soul that took the sin? Our bodies cannot sin, it is our inner being. Was Abraham asked to sacrifice himself, or his son? Do most people not value their children more than themselves? Would you not think we get that nature, that instinct, from the one whose in whose image we are made? Therefore, it was the value of the only begotten Son of God that supplied the ultimate sacrifice. Perhaps this fits somewhat with Trinitarian views, but I cannot accept the Trinity because I see no need for it. If Yeshua is indeed equal in all ways to the Father, why do so many feel the need to cram Father, Son and Holy Spirit into some extra-biblical doctrine that screams of paganism? All for the sake of saying “Yes, we are monotheistic! And here's how we pull it off”. Why not just take the Bible for what it says? Did God feel it was necessary that others would have to come along and reclassify Him into something the scriptures never did? Especially one that would cause division and strife? That is why I dislike the Trinity. God never said in scripture that He would represent Himself as either Father, Son, or Holy Spirit. Why do we try to say He has? Quote I interpret Paul’s prayer to mean that we will be filled with the spirit of God. But we do not therefore become divine men. That is not what this scripture teaches (as opposed to Col 2:9 in it’s proper context). We agree. My point was just to say that the two verses could be seen by most to mean the same thing. Since they would know (hopefully) that we will not be Deity, then their most likely reaction would be similar of Yeshua. Since this post is already huge, I will respond to the rest at a later time.

Wow!
That was the condensed answer.
Whew!

Tim

[GeneBalthrop]

nick…> if intellegence wasn't with God then nothing could exist think about. you know how complex our bodies are with all its functioning part and DNA, not to mention all the other creation and the universe and galexies on end, If one thing could describe Our Father it has to intellengence going forth and this had to be in the beginning with our Hevenly Father .

think about it, peace to you brother…gene

[kenrch]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 09 2007,18:13)

nick…> to me the word, word, just means express intellence, it was expressed intllengence was with God and expressed intelligence was God. it was this expressed intelligence that that made and brought forth everything that has intellengence in it including man and is expressed as light of man that enlightens every man comming into the world. the word to is not a person but intelligence. a God given intelligence. which every thing that has life has. and yes he (Jesus) was concieved, in the mind of God before the foundation of the world, not literally alive until he came into being.not until. that why Peter said He was ordained before the foundations of the world (BUT) was manifested (brought in being) in our time. The Father new all along what he was going to do, but brought it about at the right time. an i believe we are also son of God and son of man. Jesus was not unique at except his conception was. and as far as having no sin you are right but why did he have no sin would be my question if he is exactly as i am, the answer is just like the old blessing prayer :” the lord bless you and keep you and make his face to shine on you and be gracious to you and lift up his countinance on you and give you Peace, Jesus had all these things in his life. Jesus had no sin because the Father keep Him from it , like it say's he hath keep me from my iniquites. I cant remember where but i think it's in the psalms somewhere.we need to remember Jesus was a special person that God for ordained, Just like Jeremiah the prophet was. God formed him in his mothers womb also and said he knew him before he ever was born too. There is nothing impossible for The Father. And because we have a Father like him there is nothing impossible for us. The Father and Jesus wants us all to realize what the Father did for Jesus He can do for us.

Quote

The Father and Jesus wants us all to realize what the Father did for Jesus He can do for us.

Amen brother! I can just see Satan dieing because this is the Truth that Satan has hid from the children of the Father through the Harlet the RUC (Roman Universal Church).

Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

IHN&L,

Ken

[Laurel]

Ken,
You make me cry tears of joy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
El Shaddi!

[GeneBalthrop]

laurel…..Jesus said the word he spoke were not his but the words of him that sent Him. this seperates him from those words he spoke and focuses the words on the Father not him.

peace to you….gene

[Laurel]

Oh,
And about the RCC, we look ever further into our history and see, where this other doctrine actually originated. Does the tower of Babel ring a bell? Sun day worship.

Eze 8:12 Then said he unto me, Son of man, hast thou seen what the ancients of the house of Israel do in the dark, every man in the chambers of his imagery? for they say, The LORD seeth us not; the LORD hath forsaken the earth.
Eze 8:13 He said also unto me, Turn thee yet again,and thou shalt see greater abominations that they do.
Eze 8:14 Then he brought me to the door of the gate of the LORD's house which was toward the north; and, behold, there sat women weeping for Tammuz.
Eze 8:15 Then said he unto me, Hast thou seen this, O son of man? turn thee yet again,and thou shalt see greater abominations than these.
Eze 8:16 And he brought me into the inner court of the LORD's house, and, behold, at the door of the temple of the LORD, between the porch and the altar, were about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the LORD, and their faces toward the east; and they worshiped the sun toward the east.

40 days of weeping for Tammuz became lent.
Tammuz was the so called reincarnated son of Nimrod, Tammuz was born on Dec. 25th. Tammuz mother Estarte is the Queen of Heaven. Estarte is celebrated at the Easter Feast. The replacement Feast of Passover. Put that in your Easter basket, along with the eggs that represent the fertility rites of Estarte. The eggs that were dipped in the blood of infants sacrificed to the Sun god. Whew!

How aweful is that “other doctrine”, that always leads to murder and infedelity.

I had to tell you, since you are ready to hear it.

[GeneBalthrop]

kenrch…. > you are an encouragement to all of us dear brother….hang on to what you have …

your brother in both, Our God and our older brother Jesus our soon comming King…peace to you brother,…Gene

[Laurel]

Mat 23:35 Messiah said,”That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zechariah son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Compare the above with Ez. 8:16 of my previous post.
Those are the Words of Y'shua to the Pharisees!!!! And He goes on to say in Matt. “You will not see me henceforth, untill you say, Blessed is He who comes in the Name of YHWH!!!

[Laurel]

Gene, I speak of the here and now, knowing Y'shua was given all, By our Father. I know Y'shua never took credit, this is His glory.

[Laurel]

More meat to eat with the milk…
We see from the previous verses I posted, the Pharisees and the RCC have more in common than most realize. The biggest thing is their “orthodox” view. Ortho=oral Dox=doctrine.
Both are self proclaimed orthodox churches. Need I say more?

[kenrch]

In the beginning was the Word The end result of the Spirit (mind) of God.

The Word (end result of the Spirit) became flesh the Son of man born with no sin.

This Son of man was the express image of His Father.  Was the son of man His Father? NO the son of man was as you and I having His own life and choice.  Jesus the son of man gave Himself to the Spirit (mind) of the Father thus making His flesh and His spirit one with the Holy Spirit the mind of the Father.  This is what the first Adam had a chance to do but chose his own will instead of the will of the Father.

We are in the Son and the Son is one with the Father.  So we being in the Son are becoming one with the Father.

So is Jesus God?  He is one with His Father but with His own life being the Son of man.

So is Jesus God?  Jesus is a part of God being the Father's Son.

So is Jesus God?  Jesus is not God the Father He IS God the Son being part and one with the Father.

Do I have this right?  WJ, Gene, Laurel, anyone?

OH Lord don't let me be missunderstood!

[GeneBalthrop]

kenrch……..> all you said is right i see it that way to with maybe one little exception, where you said Jesus is God because God was in Him, I believe while God was truly in him or us for that matter never makes us a true God in the sense of the word. but it is the true God who was in Jesus, you are right on that and while the true God can impower us to Image Him, or reflect Him it never Makes us Him.

were on the same page….peace brother….gene

[Author]

Posts