The Trinity Doctrine

[GeneBalthrop]

IM4truth…..> you are right on.

hang on to what you have…………Blessings…. gene

[IM4Truth]

YES INDEED THE LAW IS LOVE———————AMEN

[IM4Truth]

THANK YOU GENE

[acertainchap]

The greatest of these is love.

[GeneBalthrop]

to all…> view Jesus as Just like yourselves who was a man just like you and me, who had The Fathers holy spirit in Him and by that spirit was full of grace and thruth,.. you and I can by that same Father can share in that same grace and truth through the same spirit that was in Jesus.

Its just thats simple, Jesus was not created and brought forth for no other perpose but to show us the true way to have true fellowship with the Father and it was just as his was.

he said I am the door, the door is not the object of worship but the acess to the object of worship which in this case is the Father, his God and our God, his Father and our Father.

he said I have glorfied (YOU) on the earth we all know he was talking about the Father.

the bible say's Jesus is the son of man and it say's he is the son of God and it also say's we are son's of God also if we have God's seed abiding in us which is His holy spirit.

we can,Just as it say's come to the full stature of Christ Jesus, in fact that's exactly the Father's aim is for to be exactly like Jesus who was the exact Image of God and the Father want's us to be the Exact Image of him also but remember and Image is a mirror or reflection of some thing but is not itself it. we as well as Jesus are to reflect God by not BE God.

peace to all who undewrstand this simple truth….Gene

[GeneBalthrop]

to all ..>my above post should have read reflect God but Not be God. sorry. Gene

[NickHassan]

Hi gene,
It is interesting that some say Christ was the image of God as the Son,
and others that he became that image by the Spirit.

[GeneBalthrop]

nick..> i believe both are true, Jesus is the son,Just like we are when we are spiritualy begotten, and He and us both Image God by the holy spirit given us by the Father, and when we say we image The Father we are not saying we are HIM their is only one God and Father of us all. Blessings and Peace to you Nick…..Gene

[kenrch]

Quote (IM4Truth @ July 09 2007,02:43)

YES INDEAD THE LAW IS LOVE———————-AMEN PEACE  Mrs.IM4Truth

Sure God is love.

1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

If you have LOVE then you keep His commandments…ALL TEN.

IHN&L,

Ken

[Proclaimer]

Quote (acertainchap @ July 09 2007,02:45)

Hello Mr. or Mrs. IM4Truth I wish that I could believe you about Hell not being a place of eternal torment. Something inside me has always made me think that Hell is eternal torment. Idk I can't describe it. Something inside me has always made me feel that this is the truth.

Hi acertainchap.

The lake of fire destroys wickedness forever. That includes the current earth and universe. There is a discussion that is appropriate for this topic here called “Eternal torment”:

https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;st=200

and also have a look at this:
https://heavennet.net/answers/answer26.htm

Blessings.

[kejonn]

*sigh* I had worked for many minutes on a reply and my browser crashed. Oh well, I will condense my answers in this reply.

Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 07 2007,11:33)

Quite obviously Isa 9:6 is a messianic prophecy. It’s also obvious that Yeshua is ascribed the title Mighty God (Heb: el gibbor) in this verse. In the very next chapter of Isaiah YHWH is given this title. As far as I’m aware it’s the only other time Isaiah used it. That’s significant, don’t you think?

I originally had a list of many (I think 20+) Hebrew names with their meanings. What people seem to overlook in this verse is that it says “And His name will be called” not “And He will be”. Names have significance Or a least used to) among Jews. Here is a shortened list to get my point across:

• Isaiah – “salvation of God”
• Hosea – “salvation”
• Eilam – “forever, eternal”
• Eilad – “God is forever”
• Ezra – “helper”
• Kemuel – “helper of God”
• Menachem – “comforter”
• Nachman – “comforter”
• Amiel – “God of my people”
• Chaniel – “grace of God”
• Ezekiel – “strength of God”
• Hadriel – “splendor of Jehovah”
• Jehu – “He is God”
• Kemuel – “helper of God”
• Micah – “who resembles God”
• Nuriel – “light or fire of God”
• Othniel – “God's strength, God's lion”
• Ziv – “radiance, brilliance or light of God”

While we're on names, Matthew 1:23 tells us that Jesus' name was to be Immanuel, “God with us”. What happened there? Instead he became Yeshua, “Lord who is Salvation”. Who decided to change his name? None of the names in Isaiah 9:6 made it into Yeshua. Isaiah 9:6 may apply to the second coming of Christ, but we will not be sure until then, will we?

Beyond that, why are we so certain that Isaiah 9:6 is about Yeshua at all? It sounds good but it is obscure as far as what we know about Yeshua.

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Are the titles “God” and “Son of God” polar opposites? I don’t see why they should be considered that. Jesus was both “man” and the “Son of man”. Being the son of man does not negate Him being a man, does it? The Jews understood His self-ascription of the title Son of God as a blasphemous claim to being “God” (John 10:33 cf. John 19:7). Since the conclusion (Yeshua is not God) is implied or already assumed in the premise (Son of God and God are antithetical) you are using another circular argument….

Angels are sons of God: Gen 6:2, Gen 6:4, Job 1:6, Job 2:1, Job 38:7. Men can become sons of God: Matt 5:9, Luke 20:36, Romans 8:14, Romans 8:19, Eph. 3:26. Not the only begotten Son of God, but sons of God nonetheless. Being the sons of God does not negate us or the angels from being God, does it? Your argument, not mine. See above.

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You have deftly avoided addressing the statement Thomas made in John 20:28 by introducing a red herring (another logical fallacy, they are already starting to pile up!). Trinitarians have no issue with what Thomas said to Yeshua, as it is completely accordant with their theology. If he said “you, Jesus, are the only person who is my God” I think we might have a dilemma on our hands. But he did not.

Why did the other Apostles not make similar exclamations of the supposed Deity of Christ in the 40 days between his resurrection and ascension? Why was this not recorded in the other 3 Gospels? If it is all you claim it to be, it would have surely been recorded again. It is quite possible that it was not all it seems and others saw it as insignificant. If it was as others think, it would have been a “shocker” in that time. Rather, there is a more logical explanation for what Thomas did.

First, we all know that God is invisible. The Apostles were Jewish, so they had the Jewish mindset, and they knew that no one had ever seen God. So why all of the sudden would they claim to seeing God now?

1 Timothy 1:17 – Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

Romans 1:20 – For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

So we see that God is invisible. We can see His works in creation, but He can also be seen in His Son, Jesus. How then can someone look at Jesus and say “My God” if God is invisible?

Colossians 1:15 – He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

With that in mind, we know that there is no way to see God, but we can see His image in the Son, Yeshua. The next verses then take on new meaning. It also means that we go to the Father through our intercessor, Jesus Christ.

John 14:6 – Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

Ephesians 2:18 – for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father.

1 Timothy 2:5 – For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

John 17:25-26 – “O righteous Father, although the world has not known You, yet I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me; and I have made Your name known to them, and will make it known, so that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.”

Before Thomas stood the resurrected Yeshua, the image of the invisible God. Image does not mean he is God, because an image is not the same as the actual entity reflected. Is my reflection in the mirror me? Is a photograph of myself me? No they are only images of me. It would therefore be quite plausible to exclaim “My God” to Yeshua knowing full well that he was the ultimate representative of God in the flesh and also knowing that he was the mediator between God and man.

If this is not the case, how else could you resolve this verse against John 17:3 and 20:17? John has gone out of his way in showing Yeshua as the “revealer of God” all throughout his Gospel. That is what John 1:1-18 is really all about. The Word was the expression of God, and that expression became flesh and walked among us.

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What do you think Thomas meant when he addressed Yeshua as “my Lord and my God”? Is Yeshua your Lord and God too? And if not does it concern you that Thomas’ opinion of Yeshua is divergent from your own?

Yeshua is my Lord, Yahweh is my God. It only concerns me that Yeshua never claimed he was God. Yeshua accepted such actions and similar from others, but never once demanded or encouraged it. God told His people that He was to be worshiped, Yeshua never did the same. In fact, he said to worship the Father (Matt 4:10, Luke 4:8, John 4:21).

My question is why Thomas did not fall to his knees and worship if he truly felt he was in the presence of God Himself. Would you not?

Tell me, what do you think Israel (Jacob) was doing in Genesis 47:31?

Finally, what some people als
o seem to latch on to is Yeshua's words to Thomas after his exclamation. They fail to see the context.

John 20:24-28 – But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. So the other disciples were saying to him, “We have seen the Lord!” But he said to them, “Unless I see in His hands the imprint of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.”After eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors having been shut, and stood in their midst and said, “Peace be with you.” Then He said to Thomas, “Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing.” Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.”

Thomas did not believe that Yeshua was alive. He would only believe if he could touch and see the wounds from the cross. When he saw Yeshua, he indeed believed he was alive and in their midst! Yeshua's response is reflected in Romans 10:9

Romans 10:9 – that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

Thomas did the very thing Paul spoke of – he confessed with his mouth that Yeshua was his Lord and believed that God had raised him from the dead! “Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.”

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Titus 2:13 is actually very solid verse IMO. The combination of the Granville Sharp (rule VI) construction and the context (who’s appearing are we expecting??) mean that there is only one person in view (Jesus Christ) and He is unmistakably described as “our great God and Savior”. That's the only plausible conclusion. What, in you opinion, is it about the grammar and context of this verse that would lend support to Titus 2:13 speaking of the father? Should we not aim to adopt the most likely interpretation?

If Paul is making a strong case that Yeshua is God, why did he not start out ANY of his other letters with such a proclamation? In fact, the letter to Titus shows the distinct separation. Was Paul double-minded? Let's hope not, for our sake. This would be further evidence that the translation is in question.

Romans 1:7-8 – to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, because your faith is being proclaimed throughout the whole world.

1 Corinthians 1:3 – Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 2:2-3 – Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort

Galatians 1:3-4 – Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for our sins so that He might rescue us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father

Ephesians 1:2-3 – Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ

Philippians 1:2 – Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Colossians 1:2-3 – To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ who are at Colossae: Grace to you and peace from God our Father. We give thanks to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you

1 Thessalonians 1:1-3 – Paul and Silvanus and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace. We give thanks to God always for all of you, making mention of you in our prayers; constantly bearing in mind your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the presence of our God and Father

2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 – Paul and Silvanus and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Timothy 1:1 – Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus according to the commandment of God our Savior, and of Christ Jesus, who is our hope

2 Timothy 1:2 – To Timothy, my beloved son: Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

Titus 1:4 -To Titus, my true child in a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.

Philemon 1:3 – Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

So, is Titus 2:13 still strong in light of EVERY greeting from Paul? Oh, and don't beat the dead horse by bringing up the “savior” issue seen in 1 Timothy 1:1 and Titus 1:4 – we all know that God has granted the power to save to Yeshua through his sacrificial death on the cross. It is still from God through His son Yeshua! Amen!

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No. I meant Jude 4. My mistake. Jude 4 For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

Please provide scriptural evidence that God said He was to be our only Master and/or Lord (Not LORD).

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Jude calls Jesus Christ “our only Master and Lord”. Quite a bold assertion. Don’t you think a statement like this one might have raised the eyebrows of those who understood YHWH to be unipersonal, and were blasphemy-conscious? This is exactly the type of language used by Jews to describe their God, YHWH.

Your speculations of blasphemy and what you consider to be language the Jews would use of YHWH are noted and brushed aside. No evidence of Jesus=God here. Beyond that, you supplied yet another verse that has different translations.

KJV – For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ

YLT – 4for there did come in unobserved certain men, long ago having been written beforehand to this judgment, impious, the grace of our God perverting to lasciviousness, and our only Master, God, and Lord — Jesus Christ — denying,

What does kurios mean here? Lord. What is it supposed to mean, YHWH? It was also used in 1 Peter 3:6 to show Sarah called Abraham lord. It was used as Lord, lord, master, sir, Sir, and “misc” according the Strong's.

–Yawn– on the Hebrews 1:3 outside sources. Yet another verse that can read whatever you want depending on if you want to cling to KJV, NASB, or any other translation to try to prove your point. Why are the majority of “Trinity proving” verses als
o the ones that happen to be translated differently in the various versions? I'd hate to have to hang my theology on such Bible version jumping games.

Hebrews 1:8 cannot be reconciled without looking to 1:9 so I snipped your stuff on 1:8. 1:9 is the more important verse.

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Yeshua having His Father as His God post resurrection is perfectly in keeping with what the trinity teaches. Yeshua was born under the law (Gal 4:4) and is subject to all of it (including the first two commandments), and therefore takes His Father as His God, unless He transgress that law. Yeshua did not unbecome a man at the resurrection, He remains one for all eternity, therefore as a man it is rightful that His Father remain His God. Also, the notion of two persons rightly called God is again consistent with trinitarian thought (two ontologically-separate Gods is not, though). We would expect to see this type of language used if the doctrine is true, and it’s not exceptionally uncommon to see it (Genesis 19:24, Zechariah 2:8-9 Isaiah 48:12-16, Hosea 1:7, Hosea 5, Hebrews 1:8…). I’m beginning to wonder how well you understand the doctrine you have rejected.

Give this explanation to the new Christian or seeking unbeliever and you'll find out why the growth of Islam – a religion that has some nasty fanatics — is outpacing the growth of Christianity.

“Listen Bobby, Jesus is God, but he has a God, the Father”.

Bobby looks confused. “Are there 2 Gods then?”

“No, only one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit”.

Bobby is really confused. “That's three Gods, not one”.

“Well, actually, God is not 3 Gods, He is one God with three ways to represent Himself, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.”

Bobby seems to be getting a handle on the whole idea. “Cool, but if they are all the same God, how can Jesus have a God, if he is that God?”

“No Bobby, Jesus is but one way He represents Himself. When He is Jesus, He has a God, the Father”.

Bobby looks confused again. “Why would God use three ways to represent Himself?”

Silence.

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If you take this verse taken in isolation then you might have found a valid point here. But sound Biblical exegesis is not done in a vacuum. Other NT creation texts, like 1 Corinthians 8:6 and Hebrews 1:2 for instance, show that Yeshua worked in association with the Father. Hebrews 1:10 does show that Yeshua was the actual executor of the Creation though. Kejonn, it seems to me that you motivation here is simply to obfuscate, using red herrings in order to avoid the impact of the verses. You are constantly equivocating in this post. Instead of just inferring some (usually unfounded) awkwardness into these proof texts, are we going to see you address the content in the verses? Why do you personally think the writer of Hebrews applied Psalms 102:25, a verse that manifestly references YHWH, to Yeshua and claimed that it was an utterance directed to the Son by the Father? Why would he do that, if Yeshua was not YHWH? And also why would he record these sentiments about Yeshua:

You say I am bring in “red herrings” and such. I'm merely pointing out the absurdity of the doctrine that has many books written trying to explain it. I was given a book called Forgotten Trinity (it was called that because most people don't even have a clue what it is, the book even says so). 224 pages and the author states that he has not gone in-depth into the doctrine. 224 pages to describe something that seemingly should be explainable in a few verses?

I do not deny Yeshua's pre-existance. Does this prove he is YHWH? No, there are many verses that show that the Son and Father were responsible for Creation. The Word, the “right hand”, was the means by which God carried out His actions. Again, no proof here that YHWH = Yeshua, just that the pre-earth Yeshua was the instrument of creation. Does pre-earth Yeshua = post-Easter Yeshua? That is the most important question to answer.

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Another red herring. More obfuscation. More equivocation. Yeshua refers to Himself as the “First and Last”, this is made clear in the proceeding verse where the speaker says “I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore”. Revelation 2:9 reads thusly: “And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: The first and the last, who was dead, and has come to life, says this”. If this is not Yeshua, then who? There is no question that it is the risen Lord who is the “first and last”. It is also true that the title “first and last” belongs to YHWH alone (Isa 44:6). Why won’t you address that particular issue kejonn? Yes this verse does support oneness. But because it does, it does not automatically follow that it is thereby incompatible with trinitarianism. Both camps agree that Yeshua is YHWH so it is logical that there would be commonality in the texts they appeal to. So you are using faulty reasoning again (non sequitur).

You like red herrings, don't ya? Isaiah 44:6 does not say that “first and last” belongs to Him only. You've read that into the verse, which is eisegesis. The verse says “I am the first and I am the last, and there is no God besides Me.” It does not say “I am the first and I am the last, and only I can have that said of me”. He said that there is no God beside Him. Again, I do not disbelieve in an eternal Logos, so this does not prove what you'd like for it to.

What color is your herring?

Besides, what is Yeshua claiming in Revelation 2:8? “The first and the last, who was dead, and has come to life”. Are we automatically to assume that Revelation 2:8 looks back to Isaiah 44:6? Do you not see some significance in that “who was dead, and who has come to life” was given immediately after “the first and the last”?

1 Corinthians 15:45 – So also it is written, “The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

Romans 5:12 – Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned–

Again, the evidence for Trinity is not as strong as you'd believe. It could easily relate to the above verses, or it could just be Yeshua's death and resurrection. Neither provides a concrete case.

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Revelation 1:8 8″I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” Revelation 22:12-12 12″Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. 13″I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.” The Alpha and Omega is coming quickly kejonn, make sure you have a true understanding of Who Yeshua is…..

I am very aware. Yeshua is not YHWH. He is the only begotten Son of God. Says so in every Bible I can find. I don't have to look to extra-biblical doctrines to understand my Lord and Savior.

Again, where does the third member of the Trinity come in? Why
do you keep forgetting the Holy Spirit?

BTW, “Alpha and Omega” were titles exclusive to God, and not given to Yeshua. People try to say it was so in Revelation 22:13, but the context does not support this view. Three people speak in Revelation 22: an angel, John, and Jesus. The last one to speak before verse 13 was the angel. Are we to then assume that the angel was the “Alpha and Omega”?

I do find one thing interesting. Part of Revelation 22:13 refers back to Isaiah 40:10 and Isaiah 62:11. Pay attention to the words of those verses.

Isaiah 40:10 – Behold, the Lord GOD will come with might, With His arm ruling for Him Behold, His reward is with Him And His recompense before Him.

Isaiah 62:11 – Behold, the LORD has proclaimed to the end of the earth, say to the daughter of Zion, “Lo, your salvation comes; Behold His reward is with Him, and His recompense before Him.”

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It’s obvious that the speaker in verse 12 also speaks in verse 13. In verse 12, the speaker states that he is “coming quickly”. Since we have no explicit or implicit recording of an expectation of the Father or an angel doing this, and numerous records of Yeshua doing this (including verse 20 from the same chapter), it stands to reason that this is Yeshua speaking in verse 13. If you disagree with this please tell me on what grounds.

I noticed that before getting to that point in your post. On the surface then, it is a strong indication that this is Yeshua speaking. But look back to a verse that is much closer and therefore the context remains in Revelation 22

Revelation 22:6-9 – And he said to me, “These words are faithful and true”; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place. “And behold, I am coming quickly. Blessed is he who heeds the words of the prophecy of this book.” I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these things. But he said to me, “Do not do that I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book. Worship God.”

It was the angel sent by the God of the spirits and prophets who spoke, thereby speaking on behalf of God, not Yeshua. John breaks the angels narrative in verse 8 by worshiping the angel, but the angel refuses worship and picks the narrative back up in verse 9. The angel stops speaking on behalf of God at verse 13.

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Another red herring. Another non sequitur. Just because the Holy Spirit is not often in view in Revelation (relative to the Father and Son), it’s not evidence against the veracity of the trinity. Using this same logic, Andrew’s low profile in the book of John (relative to Peter, James and John) would disprove he was an apostle. Your unspoken assertion here is that trinitarians rely on the book of Revelation for their pneumatology, but they do not. If the entire Bible comprise only of this one book, you would have a valid point here. But there are 66 book in the Bible, not one, and trinitarians source their theology from many passages in many books.

We know the Father is distinct. We know the Son is distinct. Where do we see that the Holy Spirit is anything but that which empowers God, Yeshua, and God's people? It is our common bond, not a separate entity, it has absolutely no will of its own. I can come more to grips with Yeshua and YHWH being equal than I can the Holy Spirit because I see absolutely no proof it is ever separate from God. I see the Holy Spirit as an extension of who God is, not an embodiment of another facet of God.

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Actually it’s the only occurrence of the word in all translations of the NT. That’s because the only one NT writer used the word (Paul), and he only used it once. BTW, I would love you to deal with the verse “as we have it”. How do you personally interpret Colossians 2:9?

“For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Deity in spiritual form”. Is there any doubt that this would be the case for the Son of God? Do my offspring not carry my DNA? Why would the only human to have ever been born of the Holy Spirit not have full indwelling of the Holy Spirit? Has anyone ever seen the Holy Spirit? Yet my son is not me, and the Son of God is not the Father. I go back to some other verses

John 1:16 – For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace.

Ephesians 3:19 – and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God.

The reason the two Greek words “theotes somatikos” (both used only Col. 2:9) are used in relation to Yeshua is likely rather simple: is there not but one begotten Son of God? We are only children of God through adoption, so we do not compare to the only begotten of God and Man, Yeshua. He was the only man to be born with the Holy Spirit, the rest of us are born of this world.

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Clever….well not really. The Logos (the pre-incarnate Jesus) was with the Father. The Logos always existed in intimate communion with the Father. That’s what the Greek in John 1:1 bears out. And as I mentioned before the non-mention of the Holy Spirit is not evidence of anything in particular. I, as a trinitarian, do not see John 1:1 as any kind of verification of the trinity doctrine, so I personally do not attempt to prove the doctrine using it. But I do use it to prove the deity of Yeshua.

I do not disagree with this. I will leave any further discussion of Logos to the thread dedicated to it.

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I would like to see you extend your personal interpretation. What do you think it means that ho Logos “was God”? What does John 1:1 mean to you?

See above.

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In the Bible wives are commanded to be their husbands subservient. And yet they are not thereby lower beings. Consider 1 Corinthians 15:27.

We are the body of Christ, Yeshua is the head of that body. Need I say more?

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Find one verse in the Bible which proves Yeshua is lesser in His nature than the Father. Bear in mind that scriptures that show He is a man will not suffice. Trinitarians readily accept that He is also a man. So this would be proof positive of humanity, not proof negative of deity.

John 10:29-30 – My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one.”

I included verse
because I knew you'd say something of it. Even my Bible, the Ryrie Study Bible, which has many Trinitarian footnotes, says in relation to verse 30:

The Father and Son are in perfect unity in their natures and actions, but the neuter form of “one” rules out the meaning they are one person

This quote from Ryrie does not disagree with Trinitarian theology, nor do I disagree with the assessment. But perfect unity in nature and actions does not mean equality because Yeshua himself said that his Father was greater than all. Verse 30 fits in rather well with more of Yeshua's words in John 17:22-23

John 17:22-23 – “The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.

This is an incredible verse! Many hang on the OT scriptures that God will not give His glory to another (Is. 42:8) to prove that Yeshua was part of a Trinity yet here not only does Yeshua say he has been given glory, he then passes it on to us!! And just as Yeshua and the Father are one, we are to be one. So if we are one (the body of Christ), and Christ is head of the body, we are one with him. If Yeshua and God are one, and we are one with Christ, how can there be any separation? The answer is the Spirit:

1 Corinthians 12:11-12 – But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills. For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ.

So does that then make us equal to God? NO! So then neither does the statement in John 10:30 mean that Yeshua and YHWH are equal in all. Yeshua plainly states his Father is greater than all.

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Question: is woman less human than man by virtue of her subservience to her husband?

No. But by your same reasoning, we are equal to Yeshua. Do you claim such equality? Be careful, because if you say Yeshau is equal to YHWH, then by extension, we are equal to YHWH. “My Father is greater than all”.

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It just might be, kejonn, that John’s intention was simply to convey something about ho Logos (the prehuman Jesus) and ton Theon (God the Father). The non-mention of the Holy Spirit is not valid evidence against the trinity in the same sense that a non mention of an apostle at an event recorded in a gospel is not proof against them being one. You have committed a non sequitur fallacy here in that your premise (the Holy Spirit is not mentioned in John 1:1-14) bears no direct relationship to your conclusion (the trinity is false).

Please provide scriptural evidence that the Holy Spirit should even be included as “God the Holy Spirit” in the Trinity. As I travel down this road of discovery, I see that people go back and forth over the Deity of Yeshua, but they keep leaving out the third member of the Trinity. Why is that?

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John 17:5 records an awareness of something that occurred “before the world was”: “Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was. (John 17:5) How do you explain the fact that Yeshua appears to be reminiscing here about glory shared with the Father before the world was? Once again your explanation categorically fails to take account of any of the detail in the text. When are we going to see you address the text and give your personal interpretation. It would be nice to have an exegesis from you at some point in this post.

Once again you've missed the point. I never said anything about what was, I speak about what is. Yeshua also asked “My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me” (Matthew 26:39). So we cannot be sure that the exact same glory was indeed restored. Do you have scriptural proof that it has? And does 17:5 say Yeshua had equal glory with God? He merely states “The glory I had with you”. It seems that angels also have glory with God

Luke 9:26 – “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when He comes in His glory, and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.

So there is no definitive proof that Yeshua and YHWH share equal glory.

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Really? Where in the NT do we read of Yeshua “emptying Himself” of things while on earth? –SNIP– not really important

Good stuff. And I won't disagree. This was a case of me seeing more than what was in front of my face. Would Logos not have a spiritual form, as he came from God?

Just curious, but how does the “form of God” differ from the “image of God”. Or do they? And how does this then relate

2 Corinthians 3:18 – But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

Romans 8:29 – For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;

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Interesting. Notwithstanding the fact that He is now a man forever, what specifically is lacking?

I was hoping you could tell me .

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He was given ALL authority on Heaven and Earth: Matthew 28:18 18And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. (It’s interesting that Yeshua made this statement after some were doubtful about worshiping Him…..)

I don't know that they were doubtful about worshiping him. They were doubtful about something, but we can't be sure it was worship they were doubting. Maybe it was though because I'm sure the Apostles were consummate Jews and remember that scripture told them that worship was for YHWH alone. Again, Yeshua never once told others to worship him. He directed all worship to his Father. He accepted worship without a word, but he neither encouraged or discouraged it.

–SNIP–Many verses about Lordship, authority, etc.–
Inheritance will do that for you . Again, it had to be given, it was not his to take. If Yeshua was God, he would not ha
ve to be given anything, would he? It would be his by default. He will share the Father's throne according to Revelation.

But here's the kicker: why does this make Yeshua 1/3 of the Trinity? Simple answer: Christianity does not want to be known as polytheistic or henotheistic. I started a thread about whether or not Christianity was either of those, and the answers were either vague or “no”. Trinitarians vehemently claim to be monotheistic, but nobody is buying it. Only the Trinitarians themselves. Again, it is one reason why many Jews cannot be reached.

I may return to my “Body of Christ” thread because I thought I was onto something about the way that God could be represented but I ran up against 1 Cor. 8:6 and I hit a brick wall. That one verse is stronger in opposition to the Trinity than any verse that supposedly supports the Trinity. How can you refute “One God, the Father”?

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YHWH incarnate died for our sins (John 19:37). The value is more than enough to pay for the sins of all man since the beginning of mankind. What value is there in simply an anointed man’s death? Is it enough?

While I won't agree on the “YHWH incarnate” part, I don't agree that he was merely an “anointed man” either. He was the Son of God, the One and Only, born of Man and God, perfect in his walk and nature. Would that not make him unique and worthy to take on the sins of the world?

In fact, to me, being God — who cannot die in the first place – would be less valuable. What value is there in the death of one who cannot die? Perhaps you think it was the human portion that died and that was enough, but was it his earthly body that took the sin, or his soul that took the sin? Our bodies cannot sin, it is our inner being.

Was Abraham asked to sacrifice himself, or his son? Do most people not value their children more than themselves? Would you not think we get that nature, that instinct, from the one whose in whose image we are made? Therefore, it was the value of the only begotten Son of God that supplied the ultimate sacrifice.

Perhaps this fits somewhat with Trinitarian views, but I cannot accept the Trinity because I see no need for it. If Yeshua is indeed equal in all ways to the Father, why do so many feel the need to cram Father, Son and Holy Spirit into some extra-biblical doctrine that screams of paganism? All for the sake of saying “Yes, we are monotheistic! And here's how we pull it off”. Why not just take the Bible for what it says? Did God feel it was necessary that others would have to come along and reclassify Him into something the scriptures never did? Especially one that would cause division and strife?

That is why I dislike the Trinity. God never said in scripture that He would represent Himself as either Father, Son, or Holy Spirit. Why do we try to say He has?

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I interpret Paul’s prayer to mean that we will be filled with the spirit of God. But we do not therefore become divine men. That is not what this scripture teaches (as opposed to Col 2:9 in it’s proper context).

We agree. My point was just to say that the two verses could be seen by most to mean the same thing. Since they would know (hopefully) that we will not be Deity, then their most likely reaction would be similar of Yeshua.

Since this post is already huge, I will respond to the rest at a later time.

[GeneBalthrop]

Im4truth…> i give you what i think about Hell, Sir Issac Newton who wrote more about the Bible then he did about any subject he studied as i remember said he didn't believe there was a literal hell, and others say it's a place of seperation form God,I am not sure either way.

when Jesus said if thy eye offend (prevent) you cast it from you better you inter the Kingdom with one eye than be cast into the fire where the worm dies not and the time of the torment never ceases, and he went on to say the same thing about the arms and legs.

what i beleve he was saying was if something very personal is preventing you from entering the kingdom get rid of it because it better for you and it requires us giving up our will i.e. (worm) and if we don't we will be cast into a condition of torment because our wills i.e. (worms) don't die so the torment will never cease.

Jesus said we must bear our cross, (crusafication) , and who so ever Loves his life will lose it and whosoever will lose his life for the kingdom sake will save it. I think this crusfication is putting our own will to death Just like Jesus did. So their might not be a literal fire but there is torment rather physical or spritual it's still torment.

hope this helped….. gene

[GeneBalthrop]

Kejonn….hold on to what you have and and our Brother will give you of the waters life.

Blessings and Peace ….. gene

[kejonn]

Just curious, but has anyone ever covered these verses? I feel certain someone must have.

Numbers 23:19 – God is not a man, that He should lie, nor a son of man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

Malachi 3:6 – “For I, the LORD, do not change; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed.

I will go ahead and say that Yeshua never lied and never needed to repent, so these verses may be a moot point. What does anyone else think?

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 09 2007,12:00)

Im4truth…> i give you what i think about Hell, Sir Issac Newton who wrote more about the Bible then he did about any subject he studied as i remember said he didn't believe there was a literal hell, and others say it's a place of seperation form God,I am not sure either way.

Hi Gene .

Sir Issac Newton also didn't believe in the Trinity doctrine.

He was an interesting character in that he didn't hold to the traditions of his day. This could partly be why he discovered so many new things.

Apparently he use to come up against fierce opposition and after a while he concluded that arguing against his opponents was fruitless. So he became somewhat of a recluse and went on without them.

Eventually a group of scientists came to him to discuss his theories, when they realized he stopped coming to them.

He is regarded by many as one of the greatest figures in the history of science. So his non-belief in the Trinity could not be due to him not understanding that doctrine. I think he just saw that it didn't add up.

[GeneBalthrop]

kejonn…> you have just said it God is not a Man and we Know Jesu is a man, he even called himself son of man.and he did not sin because God keep him God was in him via holy sprit and the same thing is possible with us. It say's Christ (the annoiting) in you is the hope of Glory, not the man Jesus but the christos or spirit that was in him which is in all who have it and it's our hope of glory. it makes us the son's and daughters of Almighty God and brothers and sisters of Jesus.
we are the family of God our Father.peace to you…gene

[NickHassan]

Quote (kejonn @ July 09 2007,12:19)

Just curious, but has anyone ever covered these verses? I feel certain someone must have. Numbers 23:19 – God is not a man, that He should lie, nor a son of man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good? Malachi 3:6 – “For I, the LORD, do not change; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed. I will go ahead and say that Yeshua never lied and never needed to repent, so these verses may be a moot point. What does anyone else think?

Hi KJ,
No lie was ever found in the mouth of the Truth.

1 John 2:21
I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

Not all men lie
Prov 116
” 11I said in my haste, All men are liars.”

But it is in the nature of men to lie as they are born servants to the god of this world who was a liar from the beginning.

John 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.”

All other men can be proved liars compared with the Word of God
Rom3
“Romans 3:4
God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.”

[Laurel]

Hi L,
It is a comfort to our hearts to attempt to be perfected by obedience to the OT Law.
The Pharisees did that.
Paul the perfect Pharisee became a murderer by this deception.

OUCH, that hurts. I see you are not aware of who or what the Pharisees were and are to this day. And since you seem to know everything, I suggest you go to the web and look up what kind of things the “Orthodox Jews of today teach. Find out what is this oral law they made up and how they teach that their rulings overwrite God's written Word. Does that sound familiar to you at all?
Every single religion today does it and they are all going to be made responsible for teaching “flase doctrine”.
The dogma of the commands of men was nailed to the cross, DIED! Messiah came to rebuke the Phaarisees, those “falsely appointed” priests, appointed by Rome none the less. and what other religion calls itself Godly that also changes His laws.

The laws of YHWH stand forever written in stone, by His own finger. Who dares take away or add to it shall by punished with all the plagues in the book!!!!!

[NickHassan]

Hi L,
Jesus affirmed that the pharisees sat in the chair of Moses.

[kejonn]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 08 2007,05:28)

K No I am not a modalist and this is what it seems you constantly do in your responses is to misrepresent the Trinitarian view. It seems to be your only approach!

I would laugh if I thought this meant anything. The problem is, your answers tend to be modalist rather than Trinitarian. You may not mean them to be, but they come across that way. So it may be you who is actually misrepresenting the Trinitarian view.

Can you give me a short description of Trinity in your words? I'd be interested in how you view it. Thanks.

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However, this is getting boring since you twist what is being said. I am not interested in chasing rabbit trails you create from a modalistic view.

See above. Most of your answers do not carry the typical Trinitarian feel. I do not twist, I just expound on what you have said.

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Gen 1:1 In the beginning *God* created the heaven and the earth. Yet we read… And God said, *Let us make man in our image*, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. Moses had some understanding I believe that there was more than “one person” in the Godhead, yet there is “One God”.

The word “us” in Genesis 1 is the weakest evidence of the Trinity IMO. God said “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness” in verse 26, but the next verse reads “God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him”.

Who then is “us”? Do we automatically assume it was Yeshua as the Word? We can, but what happened to “likeness” in verse 27? “Image” and “likeness” in verse 26, “image” only in verse 27. Since Yeshua was in the “form of God” (Phil. 2:6), who was the model for the “likeness” of Man? The angels perhaps? Who is to say?

The evidence is just not strong enough here.

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Moses said “God” yet Moses quoted God “Let us” “in our”. Moses also said the “Spirit of God”, “Moved”, which is an indication that the Spirit of God had life.

Uh, I'm missing your point here…

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Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and *beside me there is no saviour*.

Yeshua was granted authority to save. The authority still derives from the Father. YHWH was merely stating that salvation could come from no other source. Salvation is from God through Yeshua. The source remains the same.

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Isa 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; *that stretcheth forth the heavens alone*; that spreadeth abroad the earth *by myself*;

YHWH is the source, Yeshua is the means as the Word.

–snipped other verses, redundant —

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“None like him”, “By Myself”. “None Else”.

The source and the means are not the same. YHWH is the only source of creation. All derives from Him. Yeshua as the Word (or wisdom) carried out the creation, but was not the source of creation. Just as my plans originate from me, I must have a means to express or carry them out. Plans are useless until they are carried out.

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Rom 11:36 For of him, and through (dia) him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen. The context in the above scripture seems to be talking about the Father yet Paul through the whole chapter never mentions neither the Father nor the Son.

Then why mention it? All you are saying here is that Trinitarians will see one thing, others will see another.

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Now based on Rom 11:36 it says refering to “God” that… For of him and “through (dia) him, and to him *are all things*: to whom be glory for ever. Amen. Yet we read Paul saying… Col 1: 16 For by him (through him) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: *all things were created by him, and for him*: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And the Beloved disciple John remembering Gen 1 writes… Jn 1: 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. (the us and our) 3 *All things were made by him*; and *without him* was not *any thing made that was made*. So based on this, Romans 11:36 which in its context is God, also applys to Yeshua!

John 1:3

KJV – All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

NIV – Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

NASB – All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

AMP – All things were made and came into existence through Him; and without Him was not even one thing made that has come into being.

YLT – all things through him did happen, and without him happened not even one thing that hath happened.

Darby – All things received being through him, and without him not one [thing] received being which has received being.

HCSB – All things were created through Him, and apart from Him not one thing was created that has been created.

Just what version did you use?

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In light of Hebrew scriptures, and especially the fact that Paul a (Hebrew of the Hebrews) and John (the Beloved Desciple), being strict Monotheist, how could they place Yeshua in the creation of all things this way?

Because he was the Word (Logos, expression) of God? I have no issue with what is written, just what is NOT written.

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Then we read Paul dropping another bomb shell! Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and *by him all things consist*.

People get all hung up with the difference they think they see in the words “by” and “through”, but are they really that different? Why not use the word “from”? Because the Word was from God, and creation was carried out “from” God “by” using the Word as a medium for creation. “By” and “through” are rather weak words to use to support a foundational theology.

Beyond that, the word “by” in Col 1:17 is the Greek word “en” which can mean “in”, “by”, “with”, “among”, “at”, “on”, and “through”.

I hope you are not resting your theology on this word.

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Heb 1: 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who being the *brightness of his glory*, and the express image of his person, and *upholding all things by the word of his power*, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the *right hand of the Majesty on high*; Remember, he created all things “by himself” and that “beside him” there is “NO OTHER”, *he that stretcheth forth the heavens alone that spreadeth abroad the earth *by myself*, and his Glory as God he will share with no other. How do you explain this?

You verses did not show any of this. I can't explain it in view of what you see rather than what is written.

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Yet this same Word that was with the Father came down from heaven and has now returned back to heaven to his previous state and the Glory he shared with the Father as God.

Scriptural references please. I will take that over your assertion.

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Truly the Word was with God and the Word was/is God! Blessings

Was? Is? I saw “was”, I never saw “is”. Please provide scriptural evidence otherwise.

I apologize if you feel I have misrepresented or offended you. I only worked with your responses. I did not twist anything as far as I know. Your answers were not typical of most Trinitarians I know. Sorry.

Love God – Love People,
kejonn

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