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Hey N.H.
I have to repeatthis again so you see you are causing conflic and I know it is not intentional. God is Elohim and Elohim is Plural. Y'shua is Elohim, YHWH is Elohim. Elohim is a discription for the Father and the Son who are both fully endowed by the Spirit. Since Y'shua came in the flesh as a man, we can see that the Father YHWH oour Elohim made it possible, just as YHWH the Father raised Y'shua from the dead. YHWH is the head, then the Son who was given all powere an authority by His heavenlt Father, then we are under our Master Y'shua who is our mediator. When we pray, the Son deliveres our prayers to the Father all throught the Spirit. We are on the same page correct? This is how I understand Scripture.Quote (Laurel @ July 04 2007,16:31) When we pray, the Son deliveres our prayers to the Father all throught the Spirit.
Laurel,
We may go straight to the Father with our prayers. Jesus taught us how to pray like this, “Our Father…..”God and Jesus are not the same spirit or the same person. This is causing the conflict, imho.
The Father is Yaweh ONLY. There is only one Almighty.
Jesus is God's only begotten Son.Chap, please do not let anyone confuse you……. Let me ask you this: Do you have a Father? Are you him? Or are you his son? Yes, you are his son – a seperate person. Jesus is the same; he is seperate from his Father. They are one in spirit (unity), but Jesus prayed that we (you and me) may also be “one” as he and his Father are “one.” So, clearly this “one” is not in “persons” —– this one is in unity (like brotherly unity). Does this help or hinder?
Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 03 2007,21:19) I think Zech Ch 14, Isa 9:6, Joh 20:28, Rom 9:5, Ti 2:13, Jud 6, Heb 1:3, Heb 1:8, Heb 1:10-12, Rev 1:17, Rev 2:8, Rev 22:13…might have raised some eyebrows.
I'll have to revisit Zech 14, too much to tackle but I will return to it (hopefully).Isaiah 9:6 – This one is tough in the sense that one has to wonder how the monotheistic Jewish people reacted to it at the time. When they heard it passed down, read it, what was their reaction? We don't know but that would provide some awesome insight. You are aware that most Jews regard Isaiah to be a message to them and about them, correct? But I think we can see where they may not take issue when we consider what be the way it was originally intended. Isaiah 9:6 is 9:5 in the Jewish Publication Society's translation of the Masoretic Text (same used by KJV). It translates as
For a child is born unto us, a son is given unto us; and the government is upon his shoulder; and his name is called Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom;
which is then translated as
For a child is born unto us, a son is given unto us; and the government is upon his shoulder; and his name is called Wonderful in counsel is God the Mighty, the everlasting Father, the Ruler of peace.
While that sounds odd to us, such was not the case with Jews in ancient times because we know that their names had meanings. It basically was to be a name that would glorify God. You can find many instances of people or places being named certain things because of an event or purpose. So again, we have a verse which is not solid in its translation.
John 20:28 – Strange how only a few verses later, John closes out this chapter (yes, I am aware they were not originally separated by chapters) without making note of what Thomas said so that he might reiterate the fact that Jesus is God. Instead, John tells us that we may have life in Jesus' name if we believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. Another problem with this verse is that it is a stronger support for the Oneness doctrine than it is the Trinity. I'm sure those who believe in that doctrine love this verse. Last problem with this verse if we see Trinity: is Thomas saying “My Lord and my God the Father” or “My Lord and my God the Son” or “My Lord and My God the Holy Spirit”? I would guess the 2nd, but he doesn't clarify. Must have been “slain in the spirit”
.Romans 9:5 – another weak verse, as it has many different renderings. I guess you can support your belief based on some versions of the Bible or deny based on others. In any case, too much room for error. NASB and KJV say “God blessed” and NIV says “who is God over all” but footnotes with “God be forever praised!”. Weak indeed.
Titus 2:13 – yet another weak verse because it is too open to various readings. Is Jesus Christ our great God and Savior, are they separate and appearing at the same time, or is this verse pointing out that Jesus is the glory of our great God and Savior? Therefore, both sides can make a claim to deny or support. Not definitive enough to base a theology on in any case. We can discuss syntax rules and such out the ying-yang but we still have an unclear verse.
Jude 6 (I assume?) – what? Did you mean to include this one?
Hebrews 1:3 – And? Radiance of His Glory and exact representation of His nature do not mean they are equal. It only means they are equal if that is what you are wanting to read from this. Nor does sitting at His right hand. Nature, in this sense, can be defined as
- A kind or sort
- The essential characteristics and qualities of a person or thing
- The fundamental character or disposition of a person; temperament
None of those say Jesus is equal with the Father.
Hebrews 1:8 – Another verse where the translation is in question. Almost every Bible translates it similarly, but there seems to be a case where the NT was made to match the OT reference in Psalm 45 for sake of clarity. William Tyndale translated Hebrew 1:8 as “But unto the son he saith: God thy seat shall be thy seat endureth for ever, and ever. The sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre”. Plus, the next verse states “God, Your God” so Jesus has a God, and that is God the Father. Again, a reference out of Psalms, and it would lead one to wonder “are there two Gods here?” Is the first God God the Father, Son, or Holy Spirit? Or is it the whole Trinity? Who then is the 2nd God? They both use “God” without clarifying which God. My head hurts. Yet another verse that is too open to speculation.
Hebrews 1:10-12 – More verses that would seem more likely to support the Oneness doctrine than the Trinity. These verses are directed to Jesus who is but 1/3 of the Trinity. Yet the OT references were to Yahweh which you say is the triune God. Yet these verses do not allow for seperation of the 3 persons of the Trinity but point to Jesus as the one responsible. Therefore, Oneness = 1, Trinity = 0.
Revelation 1:17 – Hey, maybe the Oneness guys are lurking and cheering you on. Again, we see a separation of Jesus in Revelation but the verses reference verses towards Yahweh. Therefore it would be much easier to support that Jesus=Father by this verse. Is this what you're trying to support? But wait…Jesus is the first and last of what? First Son of God and last Son of God? First man to die for the sins of Man and the last to die for Man's sins? First to be born perfect and last to die perfect?
Revelation 2:8 – Another verse that would tend to support Oneness over Trinity. You ARE doing that doctrine some justice. Why, I may start supporting Oneness because it is gaining some strength over the Trinity. See what I said about Rev. 1:17, same applies.
Revelation 22:13 – hate to say this, but John was a bit flaky in his transitions in Revelation. It is extremely hard to figure out who was who. In this verse we find that the last person to speak was in verse 9, and that was an angel. Is the angel now claiming to be part of the Trinity? What is Trinity? I was thinking 3 persons = 1 God, but who is this angel trying to horn in? Sure, we see the intro in verse 16 that says “I, Jesus” but we do not see where the angel stopped speaking from verse 9 to 15. But if we discount the angel and John's interruption in verse 8, the last one to possibly speak through the angel was in verse 6 was the Lord, the God of spirits and prophets. Once more, a verse that holds way too much doubt.
BTW, even if these verses were definitive, where does the Holy Spirit come in? I'm only seeing 2 of 3, where do we get the idea that the Holy Spirit is equal to the Father and the Son?
Quote I disagree. If you read it objectively and without bias there is only one conclusion you can take from John's statements in John 1:1. Moreover, there is no wiggle room with regards to what “theos” in John 1:1c denotes when grammar and context is fully considered. Whether the predicate noun is interpreted definitely or qualitatively (or perhaps with aspects of both) it amounts to the same assertion, ho Logos is YHWH. Unless you're proposing that two Gods existed perpetually in communion “in the beginning”.
At least as far as the KJV is concerned, this in the only occurance of theotes. I'll give you that. But lets just forget about the various ways the Greek might be rendered and
just deal with the verse as we have it.In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
I'm almost ready to accept the Oneness doctrine. Well, not really, but it seems to be stronger than the Trinity doctrine based on your response thus far. But, just for fun lets look at this verse from a Trinitarian approach:
- the Word was with God – which God? Father, Son, or Spirit? Or are we talking God as in the Trinity? If so, we now have 4 entities: Father, Son, HS, and the Word. What do we call that, Quadrupality?
- The Word was God – was the Word all of the Trinity, or one member of the Trinity? Which one was the Word? Or was he all? When he became flesh, who was left in heaven to pray to? I guess we can assume Son, but was the Word the Son before He came to earth? If so, why not just call him Son? What is the significance of Word?
Quote I think you need to be specific when speaking of “equality”. Yeshua, the man, quite clearly did describe Himself in terms that demonstrated subservience to the Father (which is perfectly compatible with trinitarianism). So in this sense there is an unmistakable disparity in equality between them. But, it's also clear the the inequality does not extend to ontology. The NT writers argue for equivalency in nature or “essential attributes as shown in the form” before the incarnation in Philippians 2:6 and for equivalency in “being or essence” after the incarnation in Hebrews 1:3. It would be difficult to argue that Yeshua is lesser in His nature in light of these scriptures, especially Hebrews 1:3.
Covered “nature” above. I might ask you how you can be subservient to another but yet be considered equal? If you are not equal, can you be considered one? You may point to the man and woman scenario as an example, but the phrase is “one flesh”, not merely “one” for this union. Plus, do we the assume that children join in this “one flesh” to make some miniature trinity? Hey, you left off the role of the Holy Spirit again BTW. Remember, Trinity, not Duality.Quote Wonder no longer kejonn! Yeshua “set the record straight” in Revelation 1:17, 2:8 and 22:13:
Covered above.Quote It's not obscure at all. If we don't bother with the Greek and leave it as it is then we cannot escape the conclusion that ho Logos was God, because that is what the text explicitly records. When you go beneath the English text and examine the Greek it's declared even more emphatically. Yes verse 14 records that the Word became flesh, but it does not say the He stopped becoming the Word (who “was God”) in the process. There are scriptures that bear out the Yeshua remains “the Word” (1 John 1:1, Rev 19:13 and possibly Heb 4:12-13).
WJ pointed out that Revelation was written before John and notes in my bible (Ryrie Study Bible, NASB) back this up. You guys are living proof that “a house divided against itself falls”
. So John potentially saw “Word of God” in his vision before he penned the Gospel of John and that is why he wrote John 1:1-14. If we disregard this, one must wonder again about John 1:1. If the trinity was true and John believed it, he messed up in this. If Jesus was the Word and the Word was God, that would leave no room for the Father and the Spirit. I guess Jesus pushed them out of the Trinity so he could take over? If John really wanted us to know the truth (as Trinitarians see it) would he not have said something like “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God the Father and God the Holy Spirit, and the Word was God the Son” or even “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was part of God, and the Word was part of God.” Instead we have “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Yahweh, and the Word was Yahweh” which sounds more like Oneness than Trinitarianism.Quote I agree that He remained a man forever. But I disagree that He divested Himself of what He was before. To my mind John 1:1 & 14, Phil 2:5-8 and Col 2:9 bear out that 'deity put on humanity'. When Yeshua returned to the Father the glory that they shared (John 17:5) was restored.
John 17:5 records a request that Jesus made of the Father, not an affirmation that such had happened. Did the Father answer him? Hebrews 1:4 says he became better than the angels, but does that automatically mean he returned to his former glory?Quote I won't disagree with that. What did He empty Himself of IYO?
Many things, but this was mostly while on earth. He regained much of his former glory as far as I can tell, but there really is no indication that it was a complete restoration. After all, would this be a total sacrifice if he had only spent 33 years out of eternity and died a human death, only to be restored fully to his prior position? If so, it would be like “Hey Word, wanna go face a miniscule piece of eternity among humanity and then die a human death? You are eternal so it doesn't really matter. You can come back and everything will be as before.” Job was rewarded twofold of what he had in the end for his perseverance, but do we see where he got his former family back? No, those were gone forever.Quote Not at all. The word “theotes” does not appear in Ephesians 3:19, “theos” does. These are different words and both mean different things.
True. In fact, Col 2:9 is the only place in the KJV where thoetes is used. Very unique then.But how do we interpret Ephesians 3:19? Are we to be filled with the fullness of God the Father, God the Son, or God the Holy Spirit? If we see God without a qualifier, it must be the Triune God then — which is the Godhead then. And how is it different than Col 2:9 then?
And if Colossians 2:9 is indeed the fullness of the Godhead, then there can be no Holy Spirit or Father in Heaven since they are all in Jesus. Who then did he pray to? Who was this Father he often spoke of?
Quote Verse 10 speaks of Yeshua as YHWH. The writer applied to Him an OT text that exclusively references YHWH. According to the writer v10 was a statement uttered to the Son by the Father. A statement which explicitly affirmed He was the Creator of the universe.
You are really making God out to be one who
is in desperate need of his meds. If Yeshua is YHWH, who is the Father? Are you supporting Oneness again? Are you sure you don't need to become Pentecostal? If the Father is calling Jesus YHWH, then is the Father the new person in the Godhead that the Jews did not see in the OT? Or is the Father talking to Himself and Yeshua at the same time? If Yeshua was the creator of the universe, what role did the Father have — did here merely sit back and watch?Quote Verse 4 tells us that the position lo Logos relinquished when he “took on the form of a bond-servant was restored to Him at the resurrection. He was made lower (positionally) lower than the angels for time but because of the suffering of death He was crowned with glory and honor (Heb 2:9).
Let's see, “The Word was God” the Word “became better than the angels”. Yes, the Father is better than the angels, but does this verse tell us that Jesus is again equal to the Father? At my job I have a boss. But he has a boss, and that boss has a boss, etc. Jesus often spoke of his subservience to the Father. He never spoke of an elevation of this position to equality with the Father.Quote BTW, who is the “we” that you mention here?
Those who are not certain, of course.Thanks for the reply, IS. We both seek the truth and I hope that God shows us no matter who ends up being wrong. That is what matters.
Everyone has a “signature” closing, I'm going to return to my favorite (I even have it on my checks!).
Love God – Love People,
kejonnQuote (Is 1:18 @ July 03 2007,21:50) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 03 2007,21:32) Hi Is 1.18,
You constantly insist that Jesus is the God YHWH who is his Father.
So when this God introduced Himself here
Exodus 3:14
God said to Moses, ” I AM WHO I AM”; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'”Who was speaking.
The Father,
The Son,
The Spirit
or a trinity?
Okay Nick, prove to me that this was the Father speaking. Give me scriptural evidence, not your personal theology.
Isaiah,I would rather have you answer Nick's question instead of answering his question by posing another…..
One thing I have noticed is that the Trinitarians ask the questions and we are supposed to answer them (and get heck if we don't)! Ha!
I think instead of answering questions all the time, I'm going to start asking a few myself.
Your answer to Nick's question……Isaiah?
Thanks.There is only one Spirit and it begins at the head who is the Father, through the Son, for the Father gave Him all power, and we are in that same Spirit, and we connect to the Father through the Son, by it.
N.H. Since all power and authority is given to the Son by the Father, who are you to sever it.
Yes Y'shua came as a man fully human. We know that His righteousness made Him acceptable and His deep esteem for His Father, made Him acceptable to recieve the whole of the Spirit. Since he has recieved it we can't divide it. It's not our right to take something the Father gave to someone else. I knoe that YHWH is the head and nothing is possible without Him. I worship YHWH as the head and Y'shua as the Son, but I know my place and it is below the Son, who is under the Father.Quote (Laurel @ July 04 2007,17:32) There is only one Spirit and it begins at the head who is the Father, through the Son, for the Father gave Him all power, and we are in that same Spirit, and we connect to the Father through the Son, by it.
Laurel,
For your consideration:John 16:26,27 (emphasis mine)
In that day you will ask in my name. I am not saying that I will ask the Father on your behalf. NO, the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God.
Quote (Not3in1 @ July 03 2007,08:49) WJ, I also started my post with: “I don't know about this…..” I think if you seek God with all your heart and still come out with the “wrong” answer……who am I to say God will not save someone? On the other hand, as I said, the answer to the question, “Who do you say that I am?” was important to Jesus.
What do you think, WJ – will JW's go to hell because they believe Jesus is Michael? Will I go to hell because I believe Jesus is the true Son of God and not an incarnation of God himself? Will you be the only one saved because you alone have the truth? Maybe so, I don't know….. what are your thoughts?
not3You say…
Quote
Will you be the only one saved because you alone have the truth? Maybe so, I don't know…..Jab.
Well I guess we will see some day wont we!
Quote (acertainchap @ July 04 2007,07:59) Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 04 2007,07:57) A question for you acertainchap: Who is the LORD in this passage?:
Zechariah 14:1-4
1Behold, a day is coming for the LORD when the spoil taken from you will be divided among you. 2For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city will be captured, the houses plundered, the women ravished and half of the city exiled, but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city. 3Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle. 4In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south.Jesus or the Father?
Father.
Interesting. Acertainchap how many scriptures in the NT testify that the Father will come to Earth? How many speak of Jesus doing this?Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 04 2007,18:50) Quote (Not3in1 @ July 03 2007,08:49) WJ, I also started my post with: “I don't know about this…..” I think if you seek God with all your heart and still come out with the “wrong” answer……who am I to say God will not save someone? On the other hand, as I said, the answer to the question, “Who do you say that I am?” was important to Jesus.
What do you think, WJ – will JW's go to hell because they believe Jesus is Michael? Will I go to hell because I believe Jesus is the true Son of God and not an incarnation of God himself? Will you be the only one saved because you alone have the truth? Maybe so, I don't know….. what are your thoughts?
not3You say…
Quote
Will you be the only one saved because you alone have the truth? Maybe so, I don't know…..Jab.
Well I guess we will see some day wont we!
I hope I'm standing right next to ya brother!Hi Is 1.18,
God has been to earth before even dwelling with his people-but God was still in heaven.
Exodus 25:8
And let them make me a sanctuary; that I may dwell among them
Exodus 29:45
And I will dwell among the children of Israel, and will be their God.
Numbers 5:3
Both male and female shall ye put out, without the camp shall ye put them; that they defile not their camps, in the midst whereof I dwell.
Numbers 35:34
Defile not therefore the land which ye shall inhabit, wherein I dwell: for I the LORD dwell among the children of Israel.
1 Kings 6:13
And I will dwell among the children of Israel, and will not forsake my people Israel.
1 Kings 8:27
But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?
1 Kings 8:39
Then hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place, and forgive, and do, and give to every man according to his ways, whose heart thou knowest; (for thou, even thou only, knowest the hearts of all the children of men;)But then God withdrew from man.
Ez 12
22Then did the cherubims lift up their wings, and the wheels beside them; and the glory of the God of Israel was over them above.23And the glory of the LORD went up from the midst of the city, and stood upon the mountain which is on the east side of the city.
But the glory of God will return to dwell with man.
Rev21
” 3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. “
Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 04 2007,19:10) Quote (acertainchap @ July 04 2007,07:59) Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 04 2007,07:57) A question for you acertainchap: Who is the LORD in this passage?:
Zechariah 14:1-4
1Behold, a day is coming for the LORD when the spoil taken from you will be divided among you. 2For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city will be captured, the houses plundered, the women ravished and half of the city exiled, but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city. 3Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle. 4In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south.Jesus or the Father?
Father.
Interesting. Acertainchap how many scriptures in the NT testify that the Father will come to Earth? How many speak of Jesus doing this?
Seems that the LORD (Father) is working through a nations to accomplish this. He will also defend them with his strong hand, correct? By which Nation…America?
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