The Trinity Doctrine

[NickHassan]

Hi ACC,
Then follow Christ reliant on his biblical teachings.
Discern them from the pagan teachings of men.

[Is 1:18]

NH, I'm still waiting for you to tell me whether or not you hold Yeshua's and Paul's application of logic to scripture against them. And if not, why is it wrong for Yeshua's followers to do likewise?

Can you please address this for us?

I also wonder if you could explain this statement to us:

Quote

The Spirit PROCEEDETH FROM GOD. God is ever one with His own SPIRIT. But the Son HAS PROCEEDED and came from God. As sons do

The inference here is the Spirit and Son both “proceeded” from God in the same way. Since you see the reference to the Son proceeding as an allusion to His pre-incarnate begettal, it holds that the Spirit was also begotten in like manner. Therefore the Spirit is a second Son of God.

Can you please address this for us?

Thanks.

[kejonn]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 30 2007,09:43)

Hi kejonn, I'm curious, can you briefly explain for me your understanding of Jesus? Thanks.

Jesus –
* Son of God
* Word of God, not sure in what form he pre-existed but know he was the Word and is called the Word again in Revelation
* Lamb of God who was slain as the final and ultimate sacrifice for man
* Begotten of God, and not created
* Subservient and subject to God the Father on earth, but still trying to establish his role in Heaven
* In a nutshell, My Lord and Savior

[Is 1:18]

Quote (kejonn @ June 30 2007,10:39)

Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 30 2007,09:43) Hi kejonn, I'm curious, can you briefly explain for me your understanding of Jesus? Thanks. Jesus – * Son of God * Word of God, not sure in what form he pre-existed but know he was the Word and is called the Word again in Revelation * Lamb of God who was slain as the final and ultimate sacrifice for man * Begotten of God, and not created * Subservient and subject to God the Father on earth, but still trying to establish his role in Heaven * In a nutshell, My Lord and Savior

Thanks! I have a few more question if you don't mind.

1. Precisely what does it mean that Yeshua is the “Son of God”?
2. When was Yeshua “begotten of God” (i.e. preincarnation or at the incarnation)?
3. Was the Logos eternal?, or was there a time when He 'was not'?

Don't mean to be pushy, I just want to clarify your views.

[kejonn]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 30 2007,10:46)

Thanks! I have a few more question if you don't mind. 1. Precisely what does it mean that Yeshua is the “Son of God”? 2. When was Yeshua “begotten of God” (i.e. preincarnation or at the incarnation)? 3. Was the Logos eternal?, or was there a time when He 'was not'? Don't mean to be pushy, I just want to clarify your views.

No prob…I don't offend as easily as some do on here.
1) What other meaning would come from Son? The easiest and most obvious answer would point to his earthly incarnation through Mary. It is also the most reasonable as there is no indication (IMO) that he existed in any other form prior to the earthly birth than the Word.
2) If one defines begotten as “born” than upon his earthly incarnation. However, there is another form of begotten (from beget) which means to be brought into existence. As the Word, he was with God in the beginning.
3) There is our time as we know it and a time outside of this that God lives by. For the sake of eternity, Logos was and is eternal. However, whatever is from Yahweh cannot procede Yahweh, so therefore Logos is second. There is no other proof than this. Since Yahweh does not have any beginning that mere mortals can define, it cannot be said where in eternity Logos came about, but in our limited understanding, I would wager microseconds. This is an area where human understanding will fail and where we must accept what is written.

[NickHassan]

Hi Is 1.18,
You asked.
“I also wonder if you could explain this statement to us:

Quote
The Spirit PROCEEDETH FROM GOD.
God is ever one with His own SPIRIT.
But the Son HAS PROCEEDED and came from God.

As sons do

The inference here is the Spirit and Son both “proceeded” from God in the same way. Since you see the reference to the Son proceeding as an allusion to His pre-incarnate begettal, it holds that the Spirit was also begotten in like manner. Therefore the Spirit is a second Son of God.”

Not so,
The Son HAS PROCEEDED-past tense.
The Spirit ever proceeds and will never have proceeded
as God pours of His Spirit lighting lamps from His lifegiving lamp.
He unites in Him by that ever proceeding Spirit.
He is the Father of lights.

[acertainchap]

God does not have two sons.

[acertainchap]

So you say that the trinity is not real, then?

[Is 1:18]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 30 2007,11:18)

Not so, The Son HAS PROCEEDED-past tense. The Spirit ever proceeds and will never have proceeded as God pours of His Spirit lighting lamps from His lifegiving lamp. He unites in Him by that ever proceeding Spirit. He is the Father of lights.

Where is it written that the Spirit “ever proceeds and will never have proceeded”?

[acertainchap]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 30 2007,11:36)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 30 2007,11:18) Not so, The Son HAS PROCEEDED-past tense. The Spirit ever proceeds and will never have proceeded as God pours of His Spirit lighting lamps from His lifegiving lamp. He unites in Him by that ever proceeding Spirit. He is the Father of lights. Where is it written that the Spirit “ever proceeds and will never have proceeded”?

This cannot be found in Scripture, then?

[Is 1:18]

Quote (kejonn @ June 30 2007,11:07)

No prob…I don't offend as easily as some do on here. 1) What other meaning would come from Son? The easiest and most obvious answer would point to his earthly incarnation through Mary. It is also the most reasonable as there is no indication (IMO) that he existed in any other form prior to the earthly birth than the Word. 2) If one defines begotten as “born” than upon his earthly incarnation. However, there is another form of begotten (from beget) which means to be brought into existence. As the Word, he was with God in the beginning. 3) There is our time as we know it and a time outside of this that God lives by. For the sake of eternity, Logos was and is eternal. However, whatever is from Yahweh cannot procede Yahweh, so therefore Logos is second. There is no other proof than this. Since Yahweh does not have any beginning that mere mortals can define, it cannot be said where in eternity Logos came about, but in our limited understanding, I would wager microseconds. This is an area where human understanding will fail and where we must accept what is written.

Thanks again, very simple, direct and easy to understand answers…

– With regard to point one – There is another hebraic aspect that should not be automatically discounted. To the Jew “son of” denoted 'of the nature/order of'. James/John were “sons of thunder”, Judas was a “son of perdition”, a “son of a prophet” was of the order of the prophets. That certainly appears to be how the Pharisees understood Jesus self-application of this title. They were not upset because they believed Jesus was implying that he was Fathered by YHWH at His natural begettal. The notion would not be offensive to them, but absurd. They understood the titles “Son of God” as equating to “God” (John 10:30-33 cf. 19:7).

-With regard to point 3. You're right we are dealing with metaphysics when we're speaking of “the beginning”, so the rules of physic do not apply with regard to the issue of the beginning of the Logos. So I thought it was interesting that you used a measure of time (microseconds) to describe the interval between one existing and the next coming into existence. I don't believe time as we know it existed “in the beginning”, as it can only coexist with matter and space. Since there was no succession of moments then, any citation of a unit of measure for time in this context is meaningless.

Thanks for your thoughts.

[acertainchap]

What is Logos?

[NickHassan]

Hi ACC,
What trinity?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 30 2007,11:36)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 30 2007,11:18) Not so, The Son HAS PROCEEDED-past tense. The Spirit ever proceeds and will never have proceeded as God pours of His Spirit lighting lamps from His lifegiving lamp. He unites in Him by that ever proceeding Spirit. He is the Father of lights. Where is it written that the Spirit “ever proceeds and will never have proceeded”?

Isa 1:18

More of his own inference that he accuses everyone else of that he dosnt agree with!

[Is 1:18]

Quote (kenrch @ June 30 2007,08:12)

Chap, You don't keep the commandments to get saved you keep the commandment because you are saved.

Excellent point. Well said.

[Is 1:18]

Quote (acertainchap @ June 30 2007,11:59)

What is Logos?

Logos is one of the Greek words that translates in the English to “Word” (e.g. refer John 1:1)

[NickHassan]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 30 2007,11:36)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 30 2007,11:18) Not so, The Son HAS PROCEEDED-past tense. The Spirit ever proceeds and will never have proceeded as God pours of His Spirit lighting lamps from His lifegiving lamp. He unites in Him by that ever proceeding Spirit. He is the Father of lights. Where is it written that the Spirit “ever proceeds and will never have proceeded”?

Hi Is 1.18
Has God ever been separate from His own Spirit?
Where is it written?

[GeneBalthrop]

t8..> your post on june 3, 2002 19,20

I have went through much of what you have in my life seeking the truth of God and with his help have also come to the same conclusion you have with reguards to the false trenitarian teachings and have written a paper on the trinity myself also.

truly if God is leading someone personally they will come to see this truth. it took several years of study and God's spirit to break lose from the false teaching of the trinity doctrine.

now i ask you to read 2thes 2, with the understanding that the man of sin is not a real person but the false image of Jesus being Almighty God himself. it is Idolatry and is the biggist (LIE), ever told. The man of sin is not a real person it is a LIE about Jesus, a lie which he himself will destory at his return.

bless you brother for breaking the shackles of false teachings and drawing close to the one and only true God.

[GeneBalthrop]

isa 1:18..>tell me what does the word (word) mean.i believe the meanning is , expressed intellegence

if we simply read John 1,1 this way, it would read , in the beginning was the expressed intellegence and the expressed intellegence was with God and was God.

and this expressed intellegence was the light of man, another words this intellegence gives man his intelect or light.

and this intellect became i.e.(came to be ) in flesh, God was in Jesus reconciling the world to (HIMSELE) ,through Jesus, but because God was in Jesus does not make Jesus a GOD.

did he plainly say he could do (NOTHING) by his self.and the words he spoke were not his but the words of him who sent him.

hardly the position of a God or a person who was the (WORD) is it.

the trinity doctrine is the biggest lie ever provocated on mankind.

[Not3in1]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 30 2007,08:38)

1. Quote (acertainchap @ June 30 2007,08:30) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 30 2007,08:25) Hi ACC, You still speak with the voice of a stranger quoting the speculations of men. Check whether you have the necessary witnesses in heaven. 1Jn 5 “6This is he who came by water and blood–Jesus Christ; not by the water only but by the water and the blood. And the Spirit is the one who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7For there are three that testify: 8the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree. 9If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater, for this is the testimony of God that he has borne concerning his Son. 10Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. 11And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I was only trying to see if the trinity was real or not. If each of these four precepts are biblically true, then the trinity is true: 1. The Heavenly Father of Jesus is true God 2. The Son (Jesus) is true God 3. The Holy Spirit is true God 4. There is only one true God Nick, Not3, Kenrch, Tim….which one is untrue? and why?

OK, I'll take a stab at this.

1.  The heavenly Father is the only God
2.  Jesus is the only begotten of the only God
3.  The holy spirit of God – is God himself
4.  The Father is the only true God

Verses do come to mind, but it's getting late and I'll check back this weekend.

Isaiah, I believe that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob was/is only ONE GOD.  In the OT, God is jealous, and he goes to great lengths to tell us he is only ONE; why would he do that if he wasn't?  Indeed you say that you believe in One God, but that is only changing what language means.  One God that is “made up” of three persons is NOT ONE.  I know you are a clever man……but one does not equal three no matter how many greek words you introduce.

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