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Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 27 2013,05:19) Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 26 2013,15:20) Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 26 2013,10:35) Quote (journey42 @ Dec. 26 2013,04:52) Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 26 2013,04:23) Journey, Wakeup, and anyone else that is concerned, Quote
Paul was not sure when telling the story if this man was “in the body, or out of the body” as it was over 14 years ago for him.That is an untruth told among men.
The man was in Christ when it occurred and Paul was not in Christ until after his experience on the road to Damascus.
Paul did not ascend to heaven on the road to Damascus.
Paul said he knew this man.
Paul said “Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory…”
Is Paul the one he will glory or is it another man he will glory?
KerwinWe need not to add anything to the story. It's simple. Paul knew a man over 14 years ago. Whether in the body or out of the body, Paul didn't know, but this man was caught up to the third heaven.
I'm confused as to why you would say that is an untruth told among men?What is this third heaven, also called paradise by Paul? That is the question.
Journey,Scripture does not tell us what the third heaven is as it is from a extra bible teaching that was among the Jews and Christians of the First Century. The one I have heard of is the Seven Heavens doctrine and the Garden of Eden was removed to Shehaqim, which is the third heaven. The Land of the Dead is there as well. It is mentioned in the book of Enoch according to Wikipedia's article on the Seven Heavens. There is evidence that Paul was using the Apocalypse of Moses as a source or at least teaching that volume also uses variations of. I found this out by Wikipedia's article on the Third Heaven.
Obviously there is some truth in both the Book of 1st Enoch and the Apocalypse of Moses but I hold that neither are the word of God.
There is a third heaven and most like Eden was moved to it by God but I doubt Hell is also in it as one descends to Hell.
Sure Kerwin;everytime pressure comes,just say that was not originally in the bible.
It has been added by the scribes.
Where can we draw the line?
This is exactly how the muslems coduct themsleves re' Jesus
and other scriptures.Lets throw all the bibles in the trash.
And lets worship our own desires,for only that is genuine.
Good; free for all.wakeup.
Wakeup,I have no idea what you are addressing as I did not say anything that is actually is in Scripture is not in Scripture. There are certainly parts that were more likely inserted later but even those I seek to interpret in accordance with the truth though I try not to use them as proof text. If you have a different opinion of 1 Enoch and or the Apocalypse of Moses and that is what you are speaking of then please be more explicit.
Kerwin.2 Corinthians 12:1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
VISIONS AND REVELATIONS.
2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew **a man in Christ** above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
HE KNEW A MAN *IN CHRIST*.14 YRS AGO.
HE KNEW IT WAS THE THIRD HEAVEN,BUT THE MAN HE WAS NOT TOO SURE.2 Corinthians 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
WETHER HE WAS PHYSICAL OR AN APPARITION HE DOES NOT KNOW.
2 Corinthians 12:4 How that he was caught up **into paradise**, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
THIRD HEAVEN=PARADISE.
YOU BELIEVE WHAT THEY SAY: ALL WHAT THEY SAY MUST BE THE TRUTH IN YOUR EYES.
THEY SAY THAT THIS WAS ADDED IN THE FIRST CENTURY.WHAT ELSE DO YOU BELIEVE IN WHAT THEY SAY?
WHAT ABOUT BELIEVING IN WHAT GOD SAYS?
HE SAYS SEEK AND YOU WILL FIND.
SEEK WHERE? FOR THE WORD HAS BEEN CORRUPTED BY MAN.
WELL; BELIEVE ALSO THAT GOD WILL PROVIDE.
JEHOVAH JEREH.wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 27 2013,00:54) Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 27 2013,05:19) Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 26 2013,15:20) Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 26 2013,10:35) Quote (journey42 @ Dec. 26 2013,04:52) Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 26 2013,04:23) Journey, Wakeup, and anyone else that is concerned, Quote
Paul was not sure when telling the story if this man was “in the body, or out of the body” as it was over 14 years ago for him.That is an untruth told among men.
The man was in Christ when it occurred and Paul was not in Christ until after his experience on the road to Damascus.
Paul did not ascend to heaven on the road to Damascus.
Paul said he knew this man.
Paul said “Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory…”
Is Paul the one he will glory or is it another man he will glory?
KerwinWe need not to add anything to the story. It's simple. Paul knew a man over 14 years ago. Whether in the body or out of the body, Paul didn't know, but this man was caught up to the third heaven.
I'm confused as to why you would say that is an untruth told among men?What is this third heaven, also called paradise by Paul? That is the question.
Journey,Scripture does not tell us what the third heaven is as it is from a extra bible teaching that was among the Jews and Christians of the First Century. The one I have heard of is the Seven Heavens doctrine and the Garden of Eden was removed to Shehaqim, which is the third heaven. The Land of the Dead is there as well. It is mentioned in the book of Enoch according to Wikipedia's article on the Seven Heavens. There is evidence that Paul was using the Apocalypse of Moses as a source or at least teaching that volume also uses variations of. I found this out by Wikipedia's article on the Third Heaven.
Obviously there is some truth in both the Book of 1st Enoch and the Apocalypse of Moses but I hold that neither are the word of God.
There is a third heaven and most like Eden was moved to it by God but I doubt Hell is also in it as one descends to Hell.
Sure Kerwin;everytime pressure comes,just say that was not originally in the bible.
It has been added by the scribes.
Where can we draw the line?
This is exactly how the muslems coduct themsleves re' Jesus
and other scriptures.Lets throw all the bibles in the trash.
And lets worship our own desires,for only that is genuine.
Good; free for all.wakeup.
Wakeup,I have no idea what you are addressing as I did not say anything that is actually is in Scripture is not in Scripture. There are certainly parts that were more likely inserted later but even those I seek to interpret in accordance with the truth though I try not to use them as proof text. If you have a different opinion of 1 Enoch and or the Apocalypse of Moses and that is what you are speaking of then please be more explicit.
Kerwin.2 Corinthians 12:1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
VISIONS AND REVELATIONS.
2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew **a man in Christ** above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
HE KNEW A MAN *IN CHRIST*.14 YRS AGO.
HE KNEW IT WAS THE THIRD HEAVEN,BUT THE MAN HE WAS NOT TOO SURE.2 Corinthians 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
WETHER HE WAS PHYSICAL OR AN APPARITION HE DOES NOT KNOW.
2 Corinthians 12:4 How that he was caught up **into paradise**, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
THIRD HEAVEN=PARADISE.
YOU BELIEVE WHAT THEY SAY: ALL WHAT THEY SAY MUST BE THE TRUTH IN YOUR EYES.
THEY SAY THAT THIS WAS ADDED IN THE FIRST CENTURY.WHAT ELSE DO YOU BELIEVE IN WHAT THEY SAY?
WHAT ABOUT BELIEVING IN WHAT GOD SAYS?
HE SAYS SEEK AND YOU WILL FIND.
SEEK WHERE? FOR THE WORD HAS BEEN CORRUPTED BY MAN.
WELL; BELIEVE ALSO THAT GOD WILL PROVIDE.
JEHOVAH JEREH.wakeup.
Wakeup,The New Testament was written in the First Century. I am not saying anything was added to it after it was written. I am saying Paul was speaking with knowledge of a teaching that was available in the First Century and that teaching is not written in Scripture. I then pointed out two sources that has either similar or the same teachings neither of which I hold to be the word of God.
God does provide as he is a living God even though the letter of the words in Scripture are dead. You just have to ask, seek, and knock.
Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 27 2013,06:32) Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 27 2013,00:54) Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 27 2013,05:19) Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 26 2013,15:20) Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 26 2013,10:35) Quote (journey42 @ Dec. 26 2013,04:52) Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 26 2013,04:23) Journey, Wakeup, and anyone else that is concerned, Quote
Paul was not sure when telling the story if this man was “in the body, or out of the body” as it was over 14 years ago for him.That is an untruth told among men.
The man was in Christ when it occurred and Paul was not in Christ until after his experience on the road to Damascus.
Paul did not ascend to heaven on the road to Damascus.
Paul said he knew this man.
Paul said “Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory…”
Is Paul the one he will glory or is it another man he will glory?
KerwinWe need not to add anything to the story. It's simple. Paul knew a man over 14 years ago. Whether in the body or out of the body, Paul didn't know, but this man was caught up to the third heaven.
I'm confused as to why you would say that is an untruth told among men?What is this third heaven, also called paradise by Paul? That is the question.
Journey,Scripture does not tell us what the third heaven is as it is from a extra bible teaching that was among the Jews and Christians of the First Century. The one I have heard of is the Seven Heavens doctrine and the Garden of Eden was removed to Shehaqim, which is the third heaven. The Land of the Dead is there as well. It is mentioned in the book of Enoch according to Wikipedia's article on the Seven Heavens. There is evidence that Paul was using the Apocalypse of Moses as a source or at least teaching that volume also uses variations of. I found this out by Wikipedia's article on the Third Heaven.
Obviously there is some truth in both the Book of 1st Enoch and the Apocalypse of Moses but I hold that neither are the word of God.
There is a third heaven and most like Eden was moved to it by God but I doubt Hell is also in it as one descends to Hell.
Sure Kerwin;everytime pressure comes,just say that was not originally in the bible.
It has been added by the scribes.
Where can we draw the line?
This is exactly how the muslems coduct themsleves re' Jesus
and other scriptures.Lets throw all the bibles in the trash.
And lets worship our own desires,for only that is genuine.
Good; free for all.wakeup.
Wakeup,I have no idea what you are addressing as I did not say anything that is actually is in Scripture is not in Scripture. There are certainly parts that were more likely inserted later but even those I seek to interpret in accordance with the truth though I try not to use them as proof text. If you have a different opinion of 1 Enoch and or the Apocalypse of Moses and that is what you are speaking of then please be more explicit.
Kerwin.2 Corinthians 12:1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
VISIONS AND REVELATIONS.
2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew **a man in Christ** above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
HE KNEW A MAN *IN CHRIST*.14 YRS AGO.
HE KNEW IT WAS THE THIRD HEAVEN,BUT THE MAN HE WAS NOT TOO SURE.2 Corinthians 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
WETHER HE WAS PHYSICAL OR AN APPARITION HE DOES NOT KNOW.
2 Corinthians 12:4 How that he was caught up **into paradise**, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
THIRD HEAVEN=PARADISE.
YOU BELIEVE WHAT THEY SAY: ALL WHAT THEY SAY MUST BE THE TRUTH IN YOUR EYES.
THEY SAY THAT THIS WAS ADDED IN THE FIRST CENTURY.WHAT ELSE DO YOU BELIEVE IN WHAT THEY SAY?
WHAT ABOUT BELIEVING IN WHAT GOD SAYS?
HE SAYS SEEK AND YOU WILL FIND.
SEEK WHERE? FOR THE WORD HAS BEEN CORRUPTED BY MAN.
WELL; BELIEVE ALSO THAT GOD WILL PROVIDE.
JEHOVAH JEREH.wakeup.
Wakeup,The New Testament was written in the First Century. I am not saying anything was added to it after it was written. I am saying Paul was speaking with knowledge of a teaching that was available in the First Century and that teaching is not written in Scripture. I then pointed out two sources that has either similar or the same teachings neither of which I hold to be the word of God.
God does provide as he is a living God even though the letter of the words in Scripture are dead. You just have to ask, seek, and knock.
Kerwin.Those letters forming words are not dead.
The spirit in those words is the flesh of Christ.
The words that I speak to you;they are spirit.
Those words are not dead.wakeup.
Wakeup,
I am using this passage and the fact the letter does not change in order to continue to express the same ideas it once did as well as the fact it is not interactive.
2 Corinthians 3:6
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)6 who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 27 2013,09:56) Wakeup, I am using this passage and the fact the letter does not change in order to continue to express the same ideas it once did as well as the fact it is not interactive.
2 Corinthians 3:6
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)6 who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
Kerwin.So you believe that the spirit is in the words.
The letters on it own is just ink.wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 27 2013,08:46) Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 27 2013,09:56) Wakeup, I am using this passage and the fact the letter does not change in order to continue to express the same ideas it once did as well as the fact it is not interactive.
2 Corinthians 3:6
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)6 who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
Kerwin.So you believe that the spirit is in the words.
The letters on it own is just ink.wakeup.
Wakeup,Yes, as letters are symbols that at best outline the truth but are unable to express it in full.
Journey………Don't think Jerusalem was the original Garden of Eden, because the rivers that went out from it are not there they are in Iraq , Baghdad, most likely. or whee ancient Babylon was located.
But i do agree with you that Ezekiel is referring to the coming Kingdom of Jesus Christ and the Saints, and has not taken place yet. In fact the Jew do not makeup the Kingdom not Israel at all, The kingdom of Israel consisted of lost ten tribes , who Jesus sent the apostles to. The kingdom of Judah consisted of just three tribes the Jews and Dan and Levi. In fact in I believe 2 kings you will find them at war with each other. So even though the Jew's are Israelite's, they only represent 1/13 th, of the total tribes of Israel, this is easily proven in scripture. There are probably Billions of Israelite's who do not even know it. Scripture say they were scattered into every Nation on this earth and would be gathered from there. It was no happenstance that the UNITED STATES has 13 original Colonies. I believe it symbolically, represented the thirteen tribes of Israel . All the tribe of Israel can be found In this nation, There are also many other nation that are Israelite nations, such as England, Scotland, Ireland, Denmark, Norway Sweden, Spain, Portugal, France, Canada , Australia. The united states has the summation of all of the peoples of all these tribes in It, hence the symbol of 13 originally.
If your ancestors came from any of those nations you most likely are and Israelite and don't even know it, because the tribes were Lost in History. That is why Jesus sent the original disciples to the “LOST SHEEP OF THE “HOUSE” of ISRAEL”. I tell you there are Billions of Israelite's in the world and they do not even know it. The Jews are just a drop in the bucket when it come to true Israelite's and they well know it. There is no way that Land over there could contain them all. IMO
peace and love to you and your………………………….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 28 2013,02:36) Journey………Don't think Jerusalem was the original Garden of Eden, because the rivers that went out from it are not there they are in Iraq , Baghdad, most likely. or whee ancient Babylon was located. But i do agree with you that Ezekiel is referring to the coming Kingdom of Jesus Christ and the Saints, and has not taken place yet. In fact the Jew do not makeup the Kingdom not Israel at all, The kingdom of Israel consisted of lost ten tribes , who Jesus sent the apostles to. The kingdom of Judah consisted of just three tribes the Jews and Dan and Levi. In fact in I believe 2 kings you will find them at war with each other. So even though the Jew's are Israelite's, they only represent 1/13 th, of the total tribes of Israel, this is easily proven in scripture. There are probably Billions of Israelite's who do not even know it. Scripture say they were scattered into every Nation on this earth and would be gathered from there. It was no happenstance that the UNITED STATES has 13 original Colonies. I believe it symbolically, represented the thirteen tribes of Israel . All the tribe of Israel can be found In this nation, There are also many other nation that are Israelite nations, such as England, Scotland, Ireland, Denmark, Norway Sweden, Spain, Portugal, France, Canada , Australia. The united states has the summation of all of the peoples of all these tribes in It, hence the symbol of 13 originally.
If your ancestors came from any of those nations you most likely are and Israelite and don't even know it, because the tribes were Lost in History. That is why Jesus sent the original disciples to the “LOST SHEEP OF THE “HOUSE” of ISRAEL”. I tell you there are Billions of Israelite's in the world and they do not even know it. The Jews are just a drop in the bucket when it come to true Israelite's and they well know it. There is no way that Land over there could contain them all. IMO
peace and love to you and your………………………….gene
GeneB.I agree with you re' the israelites.
But regarding the Rivers.
Dont forget that there was a great flood after paradise.
The tree of life must be where the Holy of Holies was in the temple;behind the vail; mount moriah. not in irak.wakeup.
Gene wrote:[/quote]
Quote Journey………Don't think Jerusalem was the original Garden of Eden, because the rivers that went out from it are not there they are in Iraq , Baghdad, most likely. or whee ancient Babylon was located.
Thanks Gene, as Wakeup mentioned, there was a flood after that, so the landscape has changed. We can only trace the place back through the scriptures. So much is spoken of Jerusalem.Zechariah 2:12 And the LORD shall inherit Judah his portion in the holy land, and shall choose Jerusalem again.
(THIS PLACE WAS CHOSEN BEFORE THE DAYS OF JESUS BIRTH)Zechariah 3:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?
These scriptures show the importance of Jerusalem. There are many more scriptures, and I can't print them all. I know these scriptures are speaking of the “Future Jerusalem”, but I think that “future Jerusalem” has a past, and it goes right back to the Garden where the “tree of life” was planted.
Zechariah 8:3 Thus saith the LORD; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain.
Isaiah 2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the WORD of the LORD FROM JERUSALEM.
Zechariah 8:4 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; There shall yet old men and old women dwell in the streets of Jerusalem, and every man with his staff in his hand for very age.
(PEACE AND SAFETY – SOUNDS LIKE A FUTURE PARADISE)Isaiah 4:3 And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem:
Isaiah 24:23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.
Isaiah 33:20 Look upon Zion, the city of our solemnities: thine eyes shall see Jerusalem a quiet habitation, a tabernacle that shall not be taken down; not one of the stakes thereof shall ever be removed, neither shall any of the cords thereof be broken. (IF THE EYES CAN SEE IT, THEN IT IS PHYSICAL)
Isaiah 52:9 Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem: for the LORD hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem. (THIS SHOWS IT IS GOING TO BE RESTORED)
Isaiah 62:1 For Zion's sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem's sake I will not rest, until the righteousness thereof go forth as brightness, and the salvation thereof as a lamp that burneth. (WHY? BECAUSE IT WAS CHOSEN FROM THE BEGINNING. A LAMP IS NOT HIDDEN)
Isaiah 62:6 I have set watchmen upon thy walls, O Jerusalem, which shall never hold their peace day nor night: ye that make mention of the LORD, keep not silence, (WHY WATCH JERUSALEM CONSTANTLY?, FOR WHAT PURPOSE?)
Isaiah 62:7 And give him no rest, till he establish, and till he make Jerusalem a praise in the earth. (THIS IS A BIG STATEMENT!)
Isaiah 65:18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
Isaiah 65:19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
Isaiah 66:10 Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her:
Isaiah 66:13 As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem.
Isaiah 66:20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.
Jeremiah 3:17 At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the LORD; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart.
2 Chronicles 7:12 And the LORD appeared to Solomon by night, and said unto him, I have heard thy prayer, and have chosen this place to myself for an house of sacrifice. (JERUSALEM)
2 Chronicles 7:16 For now have I chosen and sanctified this house, that my name may be there for ever: and mine eyes and mine heart shall be there perpetually. (JERUSALEM)
Nehemiah 1:9 But if ye turn unto me, and keep my commandments, and do them; though there were of you cast out unto the uttermost part of the heaven, yet will I gather them from thence, and will bring them unto the place that I have chosen to set my name there. (JERUSALEM, FUTURE. THE DEAD WILL BE BROUGHT THERE.)
Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Zechariah 14:11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
Zechariah 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
Zechariah 8:22 Yea, many people and strong nations shall come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray before the LORD.
Hi,
Of the three heavens the third is the highest, the throne of God.
Paul was called but did not meet with Peter till three years later according to Gal 1.18
Then gal 2 says
2 Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also.Most feel Paul is speaking of himself when he relates the story and that would fit with the timeframes
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 20 2014,07:46) Hi,
Of the three heavens the third is the highest, the throne of God.
Paul was called but did not meet with Peter till three years later according to Gal 1.18
Then gal 2 says
2 Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also.Most feel Paul is speaking of himself when he relates the story and that would fit with the timeframes
Why worry about the third heaven.
You have not made it to Zion.You are still *OF* babylon; only speaking words of Zion.
You can not have two masters.wakeup.
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