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Quote (bodhitharta @ April 28 2012,14:43) Quote (Ed J @ April 28 2012,12:50) Quote (bodhitharta @ April 28 2012,12:39) Quote (Ed J @ April 28 2012,00:08)
Do you deny these verses, Asana Bodhitharta?
(Note: covenant and Testament mean the same)Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament,
which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Luke 22:20 This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.B'shem, יהוה (YÄ-hä-vā)
עד (Ed) (Joshua 22:34)
Were you sprinkled with the blood of Jesus?
YOU BET!Rev 1:5 Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood.
1Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through san-
ctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:Hebrews 12:23-25 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven,
and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator
of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on
earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:B'shem, יהוה (YÄ-hä-vā)
עד (Ed) (Joshua 22:34)
So you are now saying this blood sprinkling is a metaphor right?
Hi BD,No, not really: an example of a metaphor is “he was drowning in work”.
The word 'drowning' is a metaphorical, but Jesus blood was actually sprinkled.
The application IS “Spiritual” and applicable, like “take up your cross and follow me”.B'shem, יהוה (YÄ-hä-vā)
עד (Ed) (Joshua 22:34)Your tactics WON'T WORK, BD!
“Son of God” is literal, not metaphorical!
Dost thou believe on the Son of God? He answered and said,
Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him? And Jesus said un-
to him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee.
And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him. (John 9:35-38)Son (G5207: υἱός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: huios
Phonetic Spelling: (hwee-os')
Short Definition: a son, descendent
Definition: a son, descendent.B'shem, יהוה (YÄ-hä-vā)
עד (Ed) (Joshua 22:34)Hello Asana…
Quote I don't think it's necessary to question our friendship or love for one another, that to me goes without saying. Thanks Asana… I will never question our friendship again. I enjoy our exchanges and I want you to feel completely free to be yourself in our discussions. Don't hold back. Say what is in your heart… you won't offend me. Friends should be able to say what they want with each other without reservation.
God Bless.
Quote I believe I have answered the question of how people could believe that Jesus was Killed/Crucified because otherwise what Isaiah was quoted as being said would not be true and I believe it is true that Mark 4:12
That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.Matthew 13:13
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.Acts 28:26
Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:So please tell me possibly what did people see and see not?
The Quran answers the Question They saw Jesus Crucified yet they saw not and they heard he was killed and yet they did not understand.
Just because the Quran says that “they saw Jesus Crucified and yet they saw not and they heard he was killed and yet they did not understand”, it does not automatically and uncritically mean that the crucifixion didn't happen.
You have to move beyond mere assertion and give us more to work with in the way of evidence. No where in the Mark, Matthew and Acts verses you brought up is there any mention whatseover of the cross or crucifixion or of Jesus being killed or crucified or even of Jews boasting that they killed Jesus.
There is nothing in those NT verses for anyone to assume or see that they are talking about the things we see the Quran talking about in chapter #4, Verse #157 of the Quran. No where in those NT verses does it say that the blindness and deafness and nonunderstanding of the Jews is related in anyway to the death of Christ or his crucifixion.
I asked for evidence that the Jews… and all the historians and eyewitnesses who claim that Jesus died and was crucified… that all these people were deluded and that Jesus never really died nor was ever crucified.
Instead of evidence… you give me a verse from the Quran which was written 600 years after the trial of Jesus. In your own words, you gave me an explanation of how people could be deluded into believing that Jesus was Killed/Crucified without giving me any evidence that they were actually deluded.
An explanation attempts to explain what the facts mean in a case. That is what an explanation is. You present facts that have something to do with… and is directly related to the issue of the death/crucifixion of Christ… and then you explain those facts.
Instead, you present me some NT verses that have absolutely nothing to do with Jesus' death or crucifixion, you present them as facts as if they are referring to Jesus' death.
This can be easily demonstrated in this way:
For the moment… let's pretend that the Quran doesn't exist… let's hypothetically go back into time before the Quran was written. Now read those NT verses you gave me. Please tell me Asana, how anyone would think that these verses are are explaining why people would be deluded into thinking that Jesus died or was crucified?
I can see how these NT verses can explain why people misunderstood or did not see the SIGNIFICANCE of Jesus' death and crucifixion and His resurrection. But before the explanation can be put forth, that explanation has to come from some facts that need explanaing.
Can you see that Asana?
If the Crucifixion and the death of Jesus happened, then those NT verses you gave me can certainly explain why some people didn't understand that the cross and Jesus'Resurrection afterwards… was a victory for God… and not some shameful defeat for God or for Christ.
But Asana… please take careful note that in doing so… I first gave evidence that Jesus died (presented to you in 2010)… even going so far as to cite the same Quran verse you are using… and then AFTER giving you the evidence that Jesus died… I then can use the NT verses to EXPLAIN why the Jews did not “see or hear or understand” what they saw… that they did not “see” the spiritual signficance of what they saw happening on the cross as Christ died.
Notice how my use of the NT veses as an explanation of the Jews not “seeing and understanding”… COMES ONLY AFTER I first presented evidence that Jesus died. First came the facts that jesus died.. and then came the verses as an explanation for the blindness on the part of some Jews.
We might disagree on my use and interpretation of the NT verses which I used as a way of explaning the “blindness” on the part of the Jews who boasted that they killed Jesus… but I FIRST gave you evidence that Jesus died before I offered an explanation for the “blindness”.
And you might disagree that the evidence I gave for the death of Jesus is not good evidence. But I at least made an attempt to give you some evidence without first just assuming that Jesus died. You on the other hand have not given me any evidence that Jesus did not die… but just assumed it.
what you did was backwards. Instead of FIRST giving us evidence that Jesus didn't die on the cross (which is what I keep asking you for)… you simply ASSUMED that Jesus didn't die… and then after that assumption… you presented some NT verses to try and EXPLAIN why the people were deluded into believing that Jesus died on the cross.
But that is logically backwards and would be an example of putting the cart before the horse… an example of begging the question.
Can you see this Asana? I asked for evidence that Jesus really didn't die, and instead of giving me evidence, you just assumed it, and then tried to EXPLAIN why they were deluded into believing that Jesus died.
Anyway… I can see that i'm repeating myself.
The bottom line is that you never gave me evidence that Jesus did not die… you just assumed it. Trust me… if there was any evidence at all that Jesus did not die on the cross… you would have immediately… instantly… and in a heart beat.. presented the evidence… and do so with glee and triumph.
You asked me to tell you what did these people possibly see and not see and not undersand in Mark 4:12… Matthew 13:33… and Acts 28:26… if not the crucifixion?
I think that a simple, straightforward reading of the text… without any preconceived bias and prejudice… shows that Jesus is refering to spiritual matters… spiritual truth… spiritual blindness.
Think of it in this way… I'm sure that you believe that Christians like myself are spirtiually blind because you say we can't see or understand the “truth” of the Quran. Likewise… Christians like myself say the same exact thing about you… that you and Mohammed are spiritually blind. You can't fully see and hear and understand the spiritual truth f
ound in the Bible. Traditional Orthodox Christians like myself believe that you are blind to the spiritual signficance of the death of Jesus on the cross.. and his subsequent resurrection.Now… I understand that you disagree with my belief that you are spiritually blind… but my point is to simply show you that this answer about what the NT versers were talking about…the spiritual blindness on the part of unbelievers… makes far more sense in the context of what Jesus said in Mark, Matthew and Acts… it makes more sense than your explanation because we say the very same things to each other in this forum… that “you are spiritualy blind and can't see or hear or understand the truth”!!
If we say that to each other now… why couldn't Jesus have meant the same thing about the Pharisees and Sadducees and non-believers in the verses you brought up? Take away the Quran… and there is really no other reasonable explanation for those NT verses.
The people that Jesus was refering to were non-believers to begin with, and “The god of this world (Satan) has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ . . . “ (2 Corinthians 4:4)
And this… “For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing…The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (1 Corinthians 1:18; 2:14)
That is why I believe that you and Mohammed and the Quran think it is foolish to believe that Jesus died on the cross… because you are spiritually blind.
Anyway… When the Qur'an speaks of those who have eyes but do not see… (The Qur'an, 7:179)… it does not mean that they are blind, but that they do not perceive the truth of the Quran. Similarly when the Qur'an speaks of those who do not hear (in that same verse), it is the perception of what they actually heard that they have denied. They denied the truth of the Quran that they had heard. That is my understanding of what 7:179 is saying in the Quran.
Well… when you apply that kind of reasoning and understanding found in 7:179… to me that is what happened with the Jews in the New Testament. They did kill Jesus the Christ… that is an historical fact that can't be objectively denied… but it is their perception that they had finally destroyed Jesus which is denied. They thought that by their crucifying Him, Jesus would be finished, but He rose from the dead. The crucifixion was not the last word. The resurrection was. So they thought they had killed Him on the cross, but they had not, for He rose again.
Interestingly… I think that there is a parallel between the death of Jesus and that of Mohammad's grandson, al-Husein which is worth thinking about and which might help explain what happened when Jesus died on the cross.
One writer, commenting on the tragic murder of al-Husein, said:
On the tenth of the month of Moharam in the year 61H, al-Husein was killed and all those who were with him of men, youth and children, except Imam Ali son of al-Husein. And people said that al-Husein wasted his life and the lives of those with him … But time proved the opposite. For the pure blood of al-Husein did not dry up on the soil of Karbala'a until the throne of the Amawites was quaked and the seat of Yazid was shaken. They were days when the power of the Amawite crumbled in shame. And the wonderful victory was on the side of the reformation [of al-Husein]….” (Mohammad Bahr al-'Uloum, al-Hasan wa al-Hosein Imaman in Qama wa in Qa'ada, Dar az-Zahra'a, Beirout Lebanon, 1983 second edition, p. 62)
To me, the above sentiment about Al-Hussein, is the same one that answers the boasting of the Jews who said: “We killed the Christ”. The people said that Al-Husein 'wasted his life… but time proved the opposite… that is, he did not waste his life. The same with Jesus.
You see… both Jesus and Al-Husein were killed (historical fact) by those who were supposed to accept them and honour them… but even so, their lives were not wasted. They both had victory.
And Jesus' victory came when He was resurrected.
But there is also a very good illustration in Sura Anfal which helps to understand Jesus' death on the cross on a another level.
Traditional, Orthodox Christians believe that even though the Jews wanted Jesus to die because of blasphemy… and even though it was the Romans who actually carried out the death penalty of Jesus… it was God's plan all along for Jesus to die on the cross. Without the cross, there would be no victory that came with the Resurrection.
Anyway… in Sura Anfal 8:15 it says:
“It is not ye who slew them; it was Allah: when thou threwest (a handful of dust), it was not thy act, but Allah's…”
This passage… as I understand it… is describing the response of the Muslim warriors to their victory at the Battle of Badr. They were boasting and taking pride in what they considered was their own achievement.
But this passage is correcting their foolish boasting and is instructing them to recognize that it was God who brought it to pass, all that happened that day. The Muslim warriors were only instruments that God used to fulfill His plan.
Well… in this same way, God is telling the Jews that their boasting is totally unfounded and in error. They didn't kill the Messiah as they so proudly boasted.
The Jews suffered from two misconceptions that day… the first one is that it was on their own strength and achievement that they were able to have Jesus be killed. God could have stepped in and stopped the whole thing at any time… but it was God's plan all along for Jesus to die so that the victory that came with the Resurrection could happen.
And the 2nd misconception was that in killing Jesus… the Jews thought that they had destroyed Jesus… and that they had finally put a stop to His influence and works and teachings here on earth. They had erroneously thought that by having Jesus killed, they had finally got rid of Jesus who was a source of real irritation and threat to them.
Far from Jesus' crucifixion being a humiliating defeat for God or for Jesus… it allowed for a great victory to occur when Jesus was resurrected.
And finally… to demonstrate that this whole idea from you, Mohammed and the Quran that Jesus never died on the cross, and that when the Jews believed and boasted that they had killed Jesus… that it was instead, a delusion sent by God Himself… makes absolutely no sense… I have to ask… what about Jesus' Disciples?
?Where were the disciples of Jesus in the plan and purpose of God if we are to believe the Quran in 4:157 ? How on earth could they… and why would they have… just sit down and let the Jewish leaders spread lies about the crucifixion if Jesus didn't die as you teach?
Doesn't it say in the Quran – 3:52, 53:
And when Jesus perceived their unbelief, he said, 'Who will be my helpers unto God?' The apostles said, 'We will be helpers of God' … inscribe us therefore with those who bear witness.”
Well, if they were the helpers of God and if they were to make the truth of God, victorious and known… then where was their voice for God and His Truth concerning the crucifixion? If Jesus was not really crucified or killed, I am sure that they would
have spoken up fiercely of what they believed to be the truth… and filled the whole world with it… and even died for it.Where then is their voice if we are to believe the Quran? Could it truly be possible and conceivable that these Discples of Jesus… whose rank had been elevated to those “who bear witness”… could they really hide themselves and be silent forever? If you believe that is possible… then they do not deserve to be called “helpers of God” or “witnesses”. Instead they should be denounced as frauds as they would have been a huge disappointment to God as helpers and witnesses.
But guess what… we know that they did not hide. They did stand up fearlessly and fiercely and spoke bodly about the crucifixion and the resurrection. These Disicples of Jesus were so fearless and so zealous and so committed to truth and to God in spreading what they believed to be the Truth… that even those who are not followers of Jesus… and those who do not believe in the Resurrection of Jesus… the world knows what these Disciples reported and claimed… that Jesus was in fact crucified and that He rose again on the third day.
Are you suggesting that the Diciples of Christ… who were the helpers of God… that they were also deceived along with the enemies of God into believing that Jesus was not crucified or killed? Are you saying that Jesus' Disciples and followers and enemies as well… that they were all duped and deceived and deluded by God?
Or maybe you are saying that the story of these Disciples… about them spreading the “Good News”… about them fearlessly and boldly going throught the world to proclaim God's truth… about them dying for their beliefs… was that all a delusion sent by God as well?
No… believing what the Quran said in 4:157… that Jesus didn't die or was not crucified… in spite of the all the evidence that Jesus was crucified… it leads to all kinds of absurdities that can't rationally be defended by an honest and open mind who is not spiritually blind.
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————————————————–Quote The romans were also would allow their wives to make many decisions hence the word “Romantic” The wife of Pontious pilate said she had a dream and no harm should come to Jesus and Pontious Pilate said at least 3 times that he would let Jesus go free. Matthew 27:19
When he was set down on the judgment seat, his wife sent unto him, saying, Have thou nothing to do with that just man: for I have suffered many things this day in a dream because of him.Acts 3:13
The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.Luke 23:22
And he said unto them the third time, Why, what evil hath he done? I have found no cause of death in him: I will therefore chastise him, and let him go.Rmans had no reason to bow to the will of the minority of Jews there is massive amounts of literature that support the way the Romans operated and they always did whatever they thought was best for them if they believed harm would come to them for assisting the crucifixion of Christ their History shows they would not have done it look at what Herod had to say:
Acts 4:26-28
King James Version (KJV)
26The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
27For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
28For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
Luke 23:7-11
King James Version (KJV)
7And as soon as he knew that he belonged unto Herod's jurisdiction, he sent him to Herod, who himself also was at Jerusalem at that time.
8And when Herod saw Jesus, he was exceeding glad: for he was desirous to see him of a long season, because he had heard many things of him; and he hoped to have seen some miracle done by him.
9Then he questioned with him in many words; but he answered him nothing.
10And the chief priests and scribes stood and vehemently accused him.
11And Herod with his men of war set him at nought, and mocked him, and arrayed him in a gorgeous robe, and sent him again to Pilate.
Luke 23:11-16
King James Version (KJV)
11And Herod with his men of war set him at nought, and mocked him, and arrayed him in a gorgeous robe, and sent him again to Pilate.
12And the same day Pilate and Herod were made friends together: for before they were at enmity between themselves.
13And Pilate, when he had called together the chief priests and the rulers and the people,
14Said unto them, Ye have brought this man unto me, as one that perverteth the people: and, behold, I, having examined him before you, have found no fault in this man touching those things whereof ye accuse him:
15No, nor yet Herod: for I sent you to him; and, lo, nothing worthy of death is done unto him.
16I will therefore chastise him, and release him.
Now I am saying this is exactly what he did and it would make perfect sense if you have ever studied the way Roman rulers functioned they LET HIM GO and presented a bloodied person who was to be executed anyway
I have to say, that it is sometimes difficult for me to follow your line of reasoning, but I will give my best and try and deal with your above comments.
First off, it is difficult to rebut or argue against a phantom or a ghost or hot air. It just is.
Look again at the verse in the Quran you bring up and which we are discussing:
Quote 1)… And their saying: Surely we have killed the messiah, Jesus son of Mary, the messenger of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure. ( ? ??? , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #157) 2)… That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:- (
? ??? , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #157)No where in that verse… nor in the New Testament… does it say that Pilate let Jesus go. So where does that idea come from? How do I argue against or rebut something that is not there to begin with? That's what I mean about trying to argue against a phantom.
And by the way…
I think it's very ironic that you will try and discredit or call into question the concepts of the “Trinity” and “Incarnation” in a prior post of mine… on the basis that they are not explicitly mentioned in the Bible… and yet you will turn around in this post of yours and say that Pilate let Jesus go… even though no where in the Quran or the Bible does it say that.So I guess I have to now assume that this delusion which you speak of (that fell on the people who boasted that they had killed Jesus)… this same delusion must have started well before any crucifixion had occured. I could be wrong…. but it appears to me that you are now claiming that not only were the Jews deluded at the crucifixion… but they were also deluded at the trial of Jesus.
First they were deluded into believing that Pilate handed Jesus over to be crucified… and then they were deluded into believing that the crucifixion of Jesus actually occured.
Where does this delusion begin and end?
Maybe Mark 4:12 and Matthew 13:13 can be applied to you and Mohammed? Maybe it was Mohammed who was deluded into believing that Allah spoke to him. Or maybe Jesus was never was arrested or went to a trial in the first place… maybe all that was also a delusion. Or maybe the dream that the wife of Pontious pilate had was also a delulsion. How can you say one way or the other?
As I said, it's like trying to rebut or fight a phantom.
Anyway… it seems that you are trying to infer that because the Romans and Pilate had no reason to bow to the will of the minority of Jews who wanted Jesus killed… and because Pilate told the people 3 times that he found Jesus innocent… and because Pilate's wife told him to have nothing to do with Jesus because of a dream she had… then all of this somehow proves or demonstrates that Jesus was let go by Pilate… even though text never says that Pilate let Jesus go.
By the way… all records indicate that Pilate was brutal towards the Jews and that his pattern was to avoid doing anything which could be acceptable to the Jews. So, why would he now give in to the Jews who were against Jesus? Why not release Jesus, if only to irritate and tweak the noses of the priests who called for his death?
It's a good question asked by non-believers… and it's my belief that Pilate did hand Jesus over to be crucified… as the Biblical texts record… even though Pilate was known for being brutal and harsh in his dealings with the Jews… and even though Pilate wouldn't normally have bowed to the will of the Sanhedrin's wishes.
Something happened that day which effected Pilate … but I don't think it was something supernatural or a delusion from God.
You don't need to add something artificial into the narrative mix… like a delusion from God… to make sense of Pilate's strange ambivalence toward Jesus and the Jewish leadership… when he normally mistreated the Jews with vicious disdain. The explanations can be very human and prosaic.
Here are a couple of factors which can adequately explain Pilate's actions that day. (I'm assuming that the trial actually did occur and that it was no delusion sent by God)
1)... It is possible that the dream that Pilate's wife had, did in fact have some kind of influence on Pilate. That influence could have come from her personal influence over her husband… or that influence could have come from any superstitions that Pilate and his wife may have had. At the time, the Romans had hundreds of gods that they worshipped and believed in. Any people or society that believes in that many gods, is bound to be superstitious.
But either way… it appears that neither of those possibilities had enough influence to stop Pilate from finally turning Jesus over for a crucifixion. At that moment in time, it appears that something had far more influence over Pilate than his wife's dream.
That is… unless you believe Pilate's final verdict to be a delusion sent from God. Which is not supported by the Quran's text nor the New Testament text.
Trying to rebut such a phantom would be impossible. You would have to go beyond simply asserting that a delusion occured, and give me some facts to work with before I could respond with any reasonable counter arguments.
Anyway… in my opinion, the above explanation for Pilate's behavior that day is not as likely as the more prosaic explanation in the following one:
2)… The politcal climate back in Rome changed so much that it put Pilate in danger… both for his career and for his physical safety.
We know that as the prefect of the Roman province of Judea… Pilate served under Emperor Tiberius… but was appointed by regent Aelius Sejanus.
In his mid-sixties, Tiberius' entered semi-retirement on the Island of Carpi in 26 AD… handing over daily Imperial duties of managing Rome, to Sejanus (a former captain of the Praetorian Guard)… and appointing him as the regent in the Capitol.
But while Tiberius embraced and preoccupied himself with a life of unmentionable depravity and cruelty during his semi-retirement on the Island… Sejanus… for 5 years… was able to banish, imprison, eliminate and engineer the suicide of many of his own opponents… as well as Tiberius' potential successors. This is all recorded by Tacitus.
It was apparant that Sejanus was trying to plot and murder his way to the throne. He very nearly did. For 5 years, Tiberius was unaware of what was happening because nearly all communciation from Rome to the Island of Capri, filtered through Sejanus. But Tiberius had a trusted sister-in-law… Antonia… who one day mangaged to send a secret letter to him in which she described Sejanus' web of plots in detail.
Tiberius responded by plotting his own surprise. He sent a lengthy letter to be read before the Roman Senate with Sejanus present. At the end of the letter, Tiberius denounced Sejanus and demanded his arrest. Sejanus was executed the same day… and Tacitus records the date for us… October 18, 31 AD.
Remember that date. It is important for our discussion.
It was Sejanus… during his managing of Rome as Regent… made appointments of many Imperial officials, including Pontius Pilate. Pilate was made Prefect of Judea about the time that Tiberius gave up Rome for Capri.
We also know (because Tacitus tells us) that Sejanus was a notorious anti-Semite… he hated the Jews. And Pilate (chosen by Sejanus)… embraced Sejanus' anti-Jewish policies as he governed Judea.
But what happened to Pilate? Why is it that during Jesus' trial, Pilate is strangely ambivalent toward Jesus and the Jewish leadership when he hated the Jews? What changed?
The answer was that Sejanus was now dead. And now Tiberius began to root out all of Sejanus's appointees and allies. In fact, many were tried, tortured and executed in unspeakable and horrible ways so as to maximize terror and make an example for others who might think of trying to do what Sejanus did.
Tiberius then rescinded all of Sejanus' orders and policies, including his anti-Semitic policies. The new official line was to let the Jews alone.
But remember that this was not a casual change of direction. Tiberius's decree was delivered at the same time that many of the officials that Sejanus had appointed, were horribily tortured and executed. Officials just like Pilate.
As you can well imagine then… after October 18, 31 AD… Pilate lived in a lethal political atmosphere. This would adequately explain Pilate's strange behavior during Jesus' trial. At this moment in time, his anti-semite prejudices could very well cost him his life.
When understood in this context… the words in John 19:12 takes on a whole new meaning for u
s:“From then on, Pilate tried to set Jesus free, but the Jews kept shouting, “If you let this man go, you are no friend of Caesar.”
If I was in Pilate's shoes… I would genuinely be afraid as I heard the Jews shouting and chanting and demanding that Christ be executed.
Pilate would have loved to set Jesus free because he could see how much the Sanhedrin wanted Jesus dead… and this would have given him a great opportunity to irritate and thumb his nose at the Jewish leaders. But when the leaders said that Pilate was no friend of Caesar if he let Jesus go… it would explain why he finally bowed before the pressure of the Sanhedrin's demands.
He didn't want to cast any focus on himself and risk a horrible death at the hands of Tiberius.
So to sum up this section:
1)… whatever personal influence Pilate's wife had over her husband… and whatever influence her dream might have had in an attemt to convince him to let Jesus go… it wasn't going to be near the influence of living in deadly fear that Tiberious might execute Pilate… like he was doing with most of those officials who were appointed by Sejanus.
So ask yourself this… should Pilate bow to a dream from his wife and let Jesus go? Or should he bow to the humiliating pressure from the Jewish leaders so as to not risk the possibility of being executed if Tiberious heard reports from the Jews that Pilate was not a firend of the Emperor?
Are you kidding? The Jews hated the Romans and Pilate for the ill treatment they received at their hands. If Pilate didn't bow to their demands… you can bet that the Jews would expose Pilate to Tiberius as revenge.
That is why I believe that Pilate didn't let Jesus go during the trial. Because my explanation is far more powerful and makes far more sense than the explanation and/or evidence you brought up in an attempt to show that Jesus was no crucified and put to death.
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——————————————-Well… I was going to get into the fact that there are many devout Muslims who in fact do believe that it is an historical fact that Jesus really did die and was crucified… and that your understanding of 4:157 in the Quran is not as firm as you wish to believe.
But I have come to the end of my energy. I am exhausted. So I will leave that subject for another time.
Do I get an amen from that? (I'm sure I got one from Mike)
Yours in Christ
FrancisP.S… I didn't have the time or energy to proof read everything, so I apologize for any spelling and grammer mistakes.
Quote (francis @ April 28 2012,06:50) Where were the disciples of Jesus in the plan and purpose of God if we are to believe the Quran in 4:157 ? How on earth could they… and why would they have… just sit down and let the Jewish leaders spread lies about the crucifixion if Jesus didn't die as you teach?
It is absurd IMO that God would delude Jesus himself, and those whom God had given him out of the world – but would reveal the “truth” of the matter 600 years later to Mohammed.Revelation 1:18
I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever!It is stranger still that Jesus, once ascended to the right hand of his God, would continue to perpetuate this “delusion”.
Good post, Francis. I believe I will give you an “Amen!”
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 29 2012,00:37) Quote (francis @ April 28 2012,06:50) Where were the disciples of Jesus in the plan and purpose of God if we are to believe the Quran in 4:157 ? How on earth could they… and why would they have… just sit down and let the Jewish leaders spread lies about the crucifixion if Jesus didn't die as you teach?
It is absurd IMO that God would delude Jesus himself, and those whom God had given him out of the world – but would reveal the “truth” of the matter 600 years later to Mohammed.Revelation 1:18
I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever!It is stranger still that Jesus, once ascended to the right hand of his God, would continue to perpetuate this “delusion”.
Good post, Francis. I believe I will give you an “Amen!”
Thanks Mike for your nice comments. They are appreciated.To be honest, I was trying to elicit an “Amen” from you and others in here for ending my post without adding further information about the devout Muslims who do believe that Jesus actually was crucified.
I know that you and others say that my posts are long… and so in a tongue 'n cheek manner, I thought you would give me an “amen” when I said I would save that information for another post instead of adding to my latest post.
But thanks again for your comment. I guess I have to work on my humor a bit more.
Yours in Christ
FrancisQuote (Ed J @ April 28 2012,15:00) Quote (bodhitharta @ April 28 2012,14:43) Quote (Ed J @ April 28 2012,12:50) Quote (bodhitharta @ April 28 2012,12:39) Quote (Ed J @ April 28 2012,00:08)
Do you deny these verses, Asana Bodhitharta?
(Note: covenant and Testament mean the same)Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament,
which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Luke 22:20 This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.B'shem, יהוה (YÄ-hä-vā)
עד (Ed) (Joshua 22:34)
Were you sprinkled with the blood of Jesus?
YOU BET!Rev 1:5 Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood.
1Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through san-
ctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:Hebrews 12:23-25 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven,
and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator
of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on
earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:B'shem, יהוה (YÄ-hä-vā)
עד (Ed) (Joshua 22:34)
So you are now saying this blood sprinkling is a metaphor right?
Hi BD,No, not really: an example of a metaphor is “he was drowning in work”.
The word 'drowning' is a metaphorical, but Jesus blood was actually sprinkled.
The application IS “Spiritual” and applicable, like “take up your cross and follow me”.B'shem, יהוה (YÄ-hä-vā)
עד (Ed) (Joshua 22:34)
ED your example was an analogy not a metaphor.Yeah Francis,
I got the joke and it was a good one. Especially in light of your words “So to sum up THIS SECTION” – as if that novel was only the first section of many to come!
So AMEN to you taking a break so soon into your discourse.
Quote (francis @ April 28 2012,23:50) Hello Asana… Quote I don't think it's necessary to question our friendship or love for one another, that to me goes without saying. Thanks Asana… I will never question our friendship again. I enjoy our exchanges and I want you to feel completely free to be yourself in our discussions. Don't hold back. Say what is in your heart… you won't offend me. Friends should be able to say what they want with each other without reservation.
God Bless.
Quote I believe I have answered the question of how people could believe that Jesus was Killed/Crucified because otherwise what Isaiah was quoted as being said would not be true and I believe it is true that Mark 4:12
That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.Matthew 13:13
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.Acts 28:26
Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:So please tell me possibly what did people see and see not?
The Quran answers the Question They saw Jesus Crucified yet they saw not and they heard he was killed and yet they did not understand.
Just because the Quran says that “they saw Jesus Crucified and yet they saw not and they heard he was killed and yet they did not understand”, it does not automatically and uncritically mean that the crucifixion didn't happen.
You have to move beyond mere assertion and give us more to work with in the way of evidence. No where in the Mark, Matthew and Acts verses you brought up is there any mention whatseover of the cross or crucifixion or of Jesus being killed or crucified or even of Jews boasting that they killed Jesus.
There is nothing in those NT verses for anyone to assume or see that they are talking about the things we see the Quran talking about in chapter #4, Verse #157 of the Quran. No where in those NT verses does it say that the blindness and deafness and nonunderstanding of the Jews is related in anyway to the death of Christ or his crucifixion.
I asked for evidence that the Jews… and all the historians and eyewitnesses who claim that Jesus died and was crucified… that all these people were deluded and that Jesus never really died nor was ever crucified.
Instead of evidence… you give me a verse from the Quran which was written 600 years after the trial of Jesus. In your own words, you gave me an explanation of how people could be deluded into believing that Jesus was Killed/Crucified without giving me any evidence that they were actually deluded.
An explanation attempts to explain what the facts mean in a case. That is what an explanation is. You present facts that have something to do with… and is directly related to the issue of the death/crucifixion of Christ… and then you explain those facts.
Instead, you present me some NT verses that have absolutely nothing to do with Jesus' death or crucifixion, you present them as facts as if they are referring to Jesus' death.
This can be easily demonstrated in this way:
For the moment… let's pretend that the Quran doesn't exist… let's hypothetically go back into time before the Quran was written. Now read those NT verses you gave me. Please tell me Asana, how anyone would think that these verses are are explaining why people would be deluded into thinking that Jesus died or was crucified?
I can see how these NT verses can explain why people misunderstood or did not see the SIGNIFICANCE of Jesus' death and crucifixion and His resurrection. But before the explanation can be put forth, that explanation has to come from some facts that need explanaing.
Can you see that Asana?
If the Crucifixion and the death of Jesus happened, then those NT verses you gave me can certainly explain why some people didn't understand that the cross and Jesus'Resurrection afterwards… was a victory for God… and not some shameful defeat for God or for Christ.
But Asana… please take careful note that in doing so… I first gave evidence that Jesus died (presented to you in 2010)… even going so far as to cite the same Quran verse you are using… and then AFTER giving you the evidence that Jesus died… I then can use the NT verses to EXPLAIN why the Jews did not “see or hear or understand” what they saw… that they did not “see” the spiritual signficance of what they saw happening on the cross as Christ died.
Notice how my use of the NT veses as an explanation of the Jews not “seeing and understanding”… COMES ONLY AFTER I first presented evidence that Jesus died. First came the facts that jesus died.. and then came the verses as an explanation for the blindness on the part of some Jews.
We might disagree on my use and interpretation of the NT verses which I used as a way of explaning the “blindness” on the part of the Jews who boasted that they killed Jesus… but I FIRST gave you evidence that Jesus died before I offered an explanation for the “blindness”.
And you might disagree that the evidence I gave for the death of Jesus is not good evidence. But I at least made an attempt to give you some evidence without first just assuming that Jesus died. You on the other hand have not given me any evidence that Jesus did not die… but just assumed it.
what you did was backwards. Instead of FIRST giving us evidence that Jesus didn't die on the cross (which is what I keep asking you for)… you simply ASSUMED that Jesus didn't die… and then after that assumption… you presented some NT verses to try and EXPLAIN why the people were deluded into believing that Jesus died on the cross.
But that is logically backwards and would be an example of putting the cart before the horse… an example of begging the question.
Can you see this Asana? I asked for evidence that Jesus really didn't die, and instead of giving me evidence, you just assumed it, and then tried to EXPLAIN why they were deluded into believing that Jesus died.
Anyway… I can see that i'm repeating myself.
The bottom line is that you never gave me evidence that Jesus did not die… you just assumed it. Trust me… if there was any evidence at all that Jesus did not die on the cross… you would have immediately… instantly… and in a heart beat.. presented the evidence… and do so with glee and triumph.
You asked me to tell you what did these people possibly see and not see and not undersand in Mark 4:12… Matthew 13:33… and Acts 28:26… if not the crucifixion?
I think that a simple, straightforward reading of the text… without any preconceived bias and prejudice… shows that Jesus is refering to spiritual matters… spiritual truth… spiritual blindness.
Think of it in this way… I'm sure that you believe that Christians like myself are spirtiually blind because you say we can't see or understand th
e “truth” of the Quran. Likewise… Christians like myself say the same exact thing about you… that you and Mohammed are spiritually blind. You can't fully see and hear and understand the spiritual truth found in the Bible. Traditional Orthodox Christians like myself believe that you are blind to the spiritual signficance of the death of Jesus on the cross.. and his subsequent resurrection.Now… I understand that you disagree with my belief that you are spiritually blind… but my point is to simply show you that this answer about what the NT versers were talking about…the spiritual blindness on the part of unbelievers… makes far more sense in the context of what Jesus said in Mark, Matthew and Acts… it makes more sense than your explanation because we say the very same things to each other in this forum… that “you are spiritualy blind and can't see or hear or understand the truth”!!
If we say that to each other now… why couldn't Jesus have meant the same thing about the Pharisees and Sadducees and non-believers in the verses you brought up? Take away the Quran… and there is really no other reasonable explanation for those NT verses.
The people that Jesus was refering to were non-believers to begin with, and “The god of this world (Satan) has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ . . . “ (2 Corinthians 4:4)
And this… “For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing…The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (1 Corinthians 1:18; 2:14)
That is why I believe that you and Mohammed and the Quran think it is foolish to believe that Jesus died on the cross… because you are spiritually blind.
Anyway… When the Qur'an speaks of those who have eyes but do not see… (The Qur'an, 7:179)… it does not mean that they are blind, but that they do not perceive the truth of the Quran. Similarly when the Qur'an speaks of those who do not hear (in that same verse), it is the perception of what they actually heard that they have denied. They denied the truth of the Quran that they had heard. That is my understanding of what 7:179 is saying in the Quran.
Well… when you apply that kind of reasoning and understanding found in 7:179… to me that is what happened with the Jews in the New Testament. They did kill Jesus the Christ… that is an historical fact that can't be objectively denied… but it is their perception that they had finally destroyed Jesus which is denied. They thought that by their crucifying Him, Jesus would be finished, but He rose from the dead. The crucifixion was not the last word. The resurrection was. So they thought they had killed Him on the cross, but they had not, for He rose again.
Interestingly… I think that there is a parallel between the death of Jesus and that of Mohammad's grandson, al-Husein which is worth thinking about and which might help explain what happened when Jesus died on the cross.
One writer, commenting on the tragic murder of al-Husein, said:
On the tenth of the month of Moharam in the year 61H, al-Husein was killed and all those who were with him of men, youth and children, except Imam Ali son of al-Husein. And people said that al-Husein wasted his life and the lives of those with him … But time proved the opposite. For the pure blood of al-Husein did not dry up on the soil of Karbala'a until the throne of the Amawites was quaked and the seat of Yazid was shaken. They were days when the power of the Amawite crumbled in shame. And the wonderful victory was on the side of the reformation [of al-Husein]….” (Mohammad Bahr al-'Uloum, al-Hasan wa al-Hosein Imaman in Qama wa in Qa'ada, Dar az-Zahra'a, Beirout Lebanon, 1983 second edition, p. 62)
To me, the above sentiment about Al-Hussein, is the same one that answers the boasting of the Jews who said: “We killed the Christ”. The people said that Al-Husein 'wasted his life… but time proved the opposite… that is, he did not waste his life. The same with Jesus.
You see… both Jesus and Al-Husein were killed (historical fact) by those who were supposed to accept them and honour them… but even so, their lives were not wasted. They both had victory.
And Jesus' victory came when He was resurrected.
But there is also a very good illustration in Sura Anfal which helps to understand Jesus' death on the cross on a another level.
Traditional, Orthodox Christians believe that even though the Jews wanted Jesus to die because of blasphemy… and even though it was the Romans who actually carried out the death penalty of Jesus… it was God's plan all along for Jesus to die on the cross. Without the cross, there would be no victory that came with the Resurrection.
Anyway… in Sura Anfal 8:15 it says:
“It is not ye who slew them; it was Allah: when thou threwest (a handful of dust), it was not thy act, but Allah's…”
This passage… as I understand it… is describing the response of the Muslim warriors to their victory at the Battle of Badr. They were boasting and taking pride in what they considered was their own achievement.
But this passage is correcting their foolish boasting and is instructing them to recognize that it was God who brought it to pass, all that happened that day. The Muslim warriors were only instruments that God used to fulfill His plan.
Well… in this same way, God is telling the Jews that their boasting is totally unfounded and in error. They didn't kill the Messiah as they so proudly boasted.
The Jews suffered from two misconceptions that day… the first one is that it was on their own strength and achievement that they were able to have Jesus be killed. God could have stepped in and stopped the whole thing at any time… but it was God's plan all along for Jesus to die so that the victory that came with the Resurrection could happen.
And the 2nd misconception was that in killing Jesus… the Jews thought that they had destroyed Jesus… and that they had finally put a stop to His influence and works and teachings here on earth. They had erroneously thought that by having Jesus killed, they had finally got rid of Jesus who was a source of real irritation and threat to them.
Far from Jesus' crucifixion being a humiliating defeat for God or for Jesus… it allowed for a great victory to occur when Jesus was resurrected.
And finally… to demonstrate that this whole idea from you, Mohammed and the Quran that Jesus never died on the cross, and that when the Jews believed and boasted that they had killed Jesus… that it was instead, a delusion sent by God Himself… makes absolutely no sense… I have to ask… what about Jesus' Disciples?
?Where were the disciples of Jesus in the plan and purpose of God if we are to believe the Quran in 4:157 ? How on earth could they… and why would they have… just sit down and let the Jewish leaders spread lies about the crucifixion if Jesus didn't die as you teach?
Doesn't it say in the Quran – 3:52, 53:
And when Jesus perceived their unbelief, he said, 'Who will be my helpers unto God?' The apostles said, 'We will be helpers of God' … inscribe us therefore with those who bear witness.”
Well, if they were the helpers of God
and if they were to make the truth of God, victorious and known… then where was their voice for God and His Truth concerning the crucifixion? If Jesus was not really crucified or killed, I am sure that they would have spoken up fiercely of what they believed to be the truth… and filled the whole world with it… and even died for it.Where then is their voice if we are to believe the Quran? Could it truly be possible and conceivable that these Discples of Jesus… whose rank had been elevated to those “who bear witness”… could they really hide themselves and be silent forever? If you believe that is possible… then they do not deserve to be called “helpers of God” or “witnesses”. Instead they should be denounced as frauds as they would have been a huge disappointment to God as helpers and witnesses.
But guess what… we know that they did not hide. They did stand up fearlessly and fiercely and spoke bodly about the crucifixion and the resurrection. These Disicples of Jesus were so fearless and so zealous and so committed to truth and to God in spreading what they believed to be the Truth… that even those who are not followers of Jesus… and those who do not believe in the Resurrection of Jesus… the world knows what these Disciples reported and claimed… that Jesus was in fact crucified and that He rose again on the third day.
Are you suggesting that the Diciples of Christ… who were the helpers of God… that they were also deceived along with the enemies of God into believing that Jesus was not crucified or killed? Are you saying that Jesus' Disciples and followers and enemies as well… that they were all duped and deceived and deluded by God?
Or maybe you are saying that the story of these Disciples… about them spreading the “Good News”… about them fearlessly and boldly going throught the world to proclaim God's truth… about them dying for their beliefs… was that all a delusion sent by God as well?
No… believing what the Quran said in 4:157… that Jesus didn't die or was not crucified… in spite of the all the evidence that Jesus was crucified… it leads to all kinds of absurdities that can't rationally be defended by an honest and open mind who is not spiritually blind.
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————————————————–Quote The romans were also would allow their wives to make many decisions hence the word “Romantic” The wife of Pontious pilate said she had a dream and no harm should come to Jesus and Pontious Pilate said at least 3 times that he would let Jesus go free. Matthew 27:19
When he was set down on the judgment seat, his wife sent unto him, saying, Have thou nothing to do with that just man: for I have suffered many things this day in a dream because of him.Acts 3:13
The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.Luke 23:22
And he said unto them the third time, Why, what evil hath he done? I have found no cause of death in him: I will therefore chastise him, and let him go.Rmans had no reason to bow to the will of the minority of Jews there is massive amounts of literature that support the way the Romans operated and they always did whatever they thought was best for them if they believed harm would come to them for assisting the crucifixion of Christ their History shows they would not have done it look at what Herod had to say:
Acts 4:26-28
King James Version (KJV)
26The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
27For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
28For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
Luke 23:7-11
King James Version (KJV)
7And as soon as he knew that he belonged unto Herod's jurisdiction, he sent him to Herod, who himself also was at Jerusalem at that time.
8And when Herod saw Jesus, he was exceeding glad: for he was desirous to see him of a long season, because he had heard many things of him; and he hoped to have seen some miracle done by him.
9Then he questioned with him in many words; but he answered him nothing.
10And the chief priests and scribes stood and vehemently accused him.
11And Herod with his men of war set him at nought, and mocked him, and arrayed him in a gorgeous robe, and sent him again to Pilate.
Luke 23:11-16
King James Version (KJV)
11And Herod with his men of war set him at nought, and mocked him, and arrayed him in a gorgeous robe, and sent him again to Pilate.
12And the same day Pilate and Herod were made friends together: for before they were at enmity between themselves.
13And Pilate, when he had called together the chief priests and the rulers and the people,
14Said unto them, Ye have brought this man unto me, as one that perverteth the people: and, behold, I, having examined him before you, have found no fault in this man touching those things whereof ye accuse him:
15No, nor yet Herod: for I sent you to him; and, lo, nothing worthy of death is done unto him.
16I will therefore chastise him, and release him.
Now I am saying this is exactly what he did and it would make perfect sense if you have ever studied the way Roman rulers functioned they LET HIM GO and presented a bloodied person who was to be executed anyway
I have to say, that it is sometimes difficult for me to follow your line of reasoning, but I will give my best and try and deal with your above comments.
First off, it is difficult to rebut or argue against a phantom or a ghost or hot air. It just is.
Look again at the verse in the Quran you bring up and which we are discussing:
Quote 1)… And their saying: Surely we have killed the messiah, Jesus son of Mary, the messenger of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure. ( ? ??? , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #157) 2)… That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:- (
? ??? , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #157)No where in that verse… nor in the New Testament… does it say that Pilate let J
esus go. So where does that idea come from? How do I argue against or rebut something that is not there to begin with? That's what I mean about trying to argue against a phantom.And by the way… I think it's very ironic that you will try and discredit or call into question the concepts of the “Trinity” and “Incarnation” in a prior post of mine… on the basis that they are not explicitly mentioned in the Bible… and yet you will turn around in this post of yours and say that Pilate let Jesus go… even though no where in the Quran or the Bible does it say that.
So I guess I have to now assume that this delusion which you speak of (that fell on the people who boasted that they had killed Jesus)… this same delusion must have started well before any crucifixion had occured. I could be wrong…. but it appears to me that you are now claiming that not only were the Jews deluded at the crucifixion… but they were also deluded at the trial of Jesus.
First they were deluded into believing that Pilate handed Jesus over to be crucified… and then they were deluded into believing that the crucifixion of Jesus actually occured.
Where does this delusion begin and end?
Maybe Mark 4:12 and Matthew 13:13 can be applied to you and Mohammed? Maybe it was Mohammed who was deluded into believing that Allah spoke to him. Or maybe Jesus was never was arrested or went to a trial in the first place… maybe all that was also a delusion. Or maybe the dream that the wife of Pontious pilate had was also a delulsion. How can you say one way or the other?
As I said, it's like trying to rebut or fight a phantom.
Anyway… it seems that you are trying to infer that because the Romans and Pilate had no reason to bow to the will of the minority of Jews who wanted Jesus killed… and because Pilate told the people 3 times that he found Jesus innocent… and because Pilate's wife told him to have nothing to do with Jesus because of a dream she had… then all of this somehow proves or demonstrates that Jesus was let go by Pilate… even though text never says that Pilate let Jesus go.
By the way… all records indicate that Pilate was brutal towards the Jews and that his pattern was to avoid doing anything which could be acceptable to the Jews. So, why would he now give in to the Jews who were against Jesus? Why not release Jesus, if only to irritate and tweak the noses of the priests who called for his death?
It's a good question asked by non-believers… and it's my belief that Pilate did hand Jesus over to be crucified… as the Biblical texts record… even though Pilate was known for being brutal and harsh in his dealings with the Jews… and even though Pilate wouldn't normally have bowed to the will of the Sanhedrin's wishes.
Something happened that day which effected Pilate … but I don't think it was something supernatural or a delusion from God.
You don't need to add something artificial into the narrative mix… like a delusion from God… to make sense of Pilate's strange ambivalence toward Jesus and the Jewish leadership… when he normally mistreated the Jews with vicious disdain. The explanations can be very human and prosaic.
Here are a couple of factors which can adequately explain Pilate's actions that day. (I'm assuming that the trial actually did occur and that it was no delusion sent by God)
1)... It is possible that the dream that Pilate's wife had, did in fact have some kind of influence on Pilate. That influence could have come from her personal influence over her husband… or that influence could have come from any superstitions that Pilate and his wife may have had. At the time, the Romans had hundreds of gods that they worshipped and believed in. Any people or society that believes in that many gods, is bound to be superstitious.
But either way… it appears that neither of those possibilities had enough influence to stop Pilate from finally turning Jesus over for a crucifixion. At that moment in time, it appears that something had far more influence over Pilate than his wife's dream.
That is… unless you believe Pilate's final verdict to be a delusion sent from God. Which is not supported by the Quran's text nor the New Testament text.
Trying to rebut such a phantom would be impossible. You would have to go beyond simply asserting that a delusion occured, and give me some facts to work with before I could respond with any reasonable counter arguments.
Anyway… in my opinion, the above explanation for Pilate's behavior that day is not as likely as the more prosaic explanation in the following one:
2)… The politcal climate back in Rome changed so much that it put Pilate in danger… both for his career and for his physical safety.
We know that as the prefect of the Roman province of Judea… Pilate served under Emperor Tiberius… but was appointed by regent Aelius Sejanus.
In his mid-sixties, Tiberius' entered semi-retirement on the Island of Carpi in 26 AD… handing over daily Imperial duties of managing Rome, to Sejanus (a former captain of the Praetorian Guard)… and appointing him as the regent in the Capitol.
But while Tiberius embraced and preoccupied himself with a life of unmentionable depravity and cruelty during his semi-retirement on the Island… Sejanus… for 5 years… was able to banish, imprison, eliminate and engineer the suicide of many of his own opponents… as well as Tiberius' potential successors. This is all recorded by Tacitus.
It was apparant that Sejanus was trying to plot and murder his way to the throne. He very nearly did. For 5 years, Tiberius was unaware of what was happening because nearly all communciation from Rome to the Island of Capri, filtered through Sejanus. But Tiberius had a trusted sister-in-law… Antonia… who one day mangaged to send a secret letter to him in which she described Sejanus' web of plots in detail.
Tiberius responded by plotting his own surprise. He sent a lengthy letter to be read before the Roman Senate with Sejanus present. At the end of the letter, Tiberius denounced Sejanus and demanded his arrest. Sejanus was executed the same day… and Tacitus records the date for us… October 18, 31 AD.
Remember that date. It is important for our discussion.
It was Sejanus… during his managing of Rome as Regent… made appointments of many Imperial officials, including Pontius Pilate. Pilate was made Prefect of Judea about the time that Tiberius gave up Rome for Capri.
We also know (because Tacitus tells us) that Sejanus was a notorious anti-Semite… he hated the Jews. And Pilate (chosen by Sejanus)… embraced Sejanus' anti-Jewish policies as he governed Judea.
But what happened to Pilate? Why is it that during Jesus' trial, Pilate is strangely ambivalent toward Jesus and the Jewish leadership when he hated the Jews? What changed?
The answer was that Sejanus was now dead. And now Tiberius began to root out all of Sejanus's appointees and allies. In fact, many were tried, tortured and executed in unspeakable and horrible ways so as to maximize terror and make an example for others who might think of trying to do what Sejanus did.
Tiberius then rescinded all of Sejanus' orders and policies, including his anti-Semitic policies. The new official line was to let the Jews alone.
But remember that this was not a casual change of direction. Tiberius's decree was delivered at the same time that many of the officials that Sejanus had appointed, were horribily tortured and executed. Officials just like Pilate.
As you can well imagine then… after October 18, 31 AD… Pilate lived in a lethal political atmosphere. This would adequately explain Pilate's strange behavi
or during Jesus' trial. At this moment in time, his anti-semite prejudices could very well cost him his life.When understood in this context… the words in John 19:12 takes on a whole new meaning for us:
“From then on, Pilate tried to set Jesus free, but the Jews kept shouting, “If you let this man go, you are no friend of Caesar.”
If I was in Pilate's shoes… I would genuinely be afraid as I heard the Jews shouting and chanting and demanding that Christ be executed.
Pilate would have loved to set Jesus free because he could see how much the Sanhedrin wanted Jesus dead… and this would have given him a great opportunity to irritate and thumb his nose at the Jewish leaders. But when the leaders said that Pilate was no friend of Caesar if he let Jesus go… it would explain why he finally bowed before the pressure of the Sanhedrin's demands.
He didn't want to cast any focus on himself and risk a horrible death at the hands of Tiberius.
So to sum up this section:
1)… whatever personal influence Pilate's wife had over her husband… and whatever influence her dream might have had in an attemt to convince him to let Jesus go… it wasn't going to be near the influence of living in deadly fear that Tiberious might execute Pilate… like he was doing with most of those officials who were appointed by Sejanus.
So ask yourself this… should Pilate bow to a dream from his wife and let Jesus go? Or should he bow to the humiliating pressure from the Jewish leaders so as to not risk the possibility of being executed if Tiberious heard reports from the Jews that Pilate was not a firend of the Emperor?
Are you kidding? The Jews hated the Romans and Pilate for the ill treatment they received at their hands. If Pilate didn't bow to their demands… you can bet that the Jews would expose Pilate to Tiberius as revenge.
That is why I believe that Pilate didn't let Jesus go during the trial. Because my explanation is far more powerful and makes far more sense than the explanation and/or evidence you brought up in an attempt to show that Jesus was no crucified and put to death.
——————————————-
——————————————-Well… I was going to get into the fact that there are many devout Muslims who in fact do believe that it is an historical fact that Jesus really did die and was crucified… and that your understanding of 4:157 in the Quran is not as firm as you wish to believe.
But I have come to the end of my energy. I am exhausted. So I will leave that subject for another time.
Do I get an amen from that? (I'm sure I got one from Mike)
Yours in Christ
FrancisP.S… I didn't have the time or energy to proof read everything, so I apologize for any spelling and grammer mistakes.
I HAD MADE A MASSIVE REPLTY TO THIS POST, WHAT HAPPENED TO IT?Quote (francis @ April 28 2012,23:50) This is frustrating, I made a huge reply and somehow it is not up here so here goes again. Quote Just because the Quran says that “they saw Jesus Crucified and yet they saw not and they heard he was killed and yet they did not understand”, it does not automatically and uncritically mean that the crucifixion didn't happen. That is not a good argument because you believe that Jesus was Crucified primarily based on what the Bible teaches, right?
Quote You have to move beyond mere assertion and give us more to work with in the way of evidence. No where in the Mark, Matthew and Acts verses you brought up is there any mention whatseover of the cross or crucifixion or of Jesus being killed or crucified or even of Jews boasting that they killed Jesus. There is nothing in those NT verses for anyone to assume or see that they are talking about the things we see the Quran talking about in chapter #4, Verse #157 of the Quran. No where in those NT verses does it say that the blindness and deafness and nonunderstanding of the Jews is related in anyway to the death of Christ or his crucifixion.
I asked for evidence that the Jews… and all the historians and eyewitnesses who claim that Jesus died and was crucified… that all these people were deluded and that Jesus never really died nor was ever crucified.
Instead of evidence… you give me a verse from the Quran which was written 600 years after the trial of Jesus. In your own words, you gave me an explanation of how people could be deluded into believing that Jesus was Killed/Crucified without giving me any evidence that they were actually deluded.
Yes, they could be deluded according to the Bible
Quote An explanation attempts to explain what the facts mean in a case. That is what an explanation is. You present facts that have something to do with… and is directly related to the issue of the death/crucifixion of Christ… and then you explain those facts. Instead, you present me some NT verses that have absolutely nothing to do with Jesus' death or crucifixion, you present them as facts as if they are referring to Jesus' death.
No they were presented as reference
Quote This can be easily demonstrated in this way: For the moment… let's pretend that the Quran doesn't exist… let's hypothetically go back into time before the Quran was written. Now read those NT verses you gave me. Please tell me Asana, how anyone would think that these verses are are explaining why people would be deluded into thinking that Jesus died or was crucified?
That's interesting because when the Jews ask Christians to give reasons to believe that Jesus is Christ how can they do it without the NT? They can't and your asking me to do the same
Quote I can see how these NT verses can explain why people misunderstood or did not see the SIGNIFICANCE of Jesus' death and crucifixion and His resurrection. But before the explanation can be put forth, that explanation has to come from some facts that need explanaing. What signifigance?
Quote Can you see that Asana? If the Crucifixion and the death of Jesus happened, then those NT verses you gave me can certainly explain why some people didn't understand that the cross and Jesus'Resurrection afterwards… was a victory for God… and not some shameful defeat for God or for Christ.
Ironically, God saving Jesus from the Cross would be a victory for GOD. Jesus dead on the Crosss would be a “victory” for you and those who stake their salvation on Murder
Quote But Asana… please take careful note that in doing so… I first gave evidence that Jesus died (presented to you in 2010)… even going so far as to cite the same Quran verse you are using… and then AFTER giving you the evidence that Jesus died… I then can use the NT verses to EXPLAIN why the Jews did not “see or hear or understand” what they saw… that they did not “see” the spiritual signficance of what they saw happening on the cross as Christ died. What signifigance?
Quote Notice how my use of the NT veses as an explanation of the Jews not “seeing and understanding”… COMES ONLY AFTER I first presented evidence that Jesus died. First came the facts that jesus died.. and then came the verses as an explanation for the blindness on the part of some Jews. We might disagree on my use and interpretation of the NT verses which I used as a way of explaning the “blindness” on the part of the Jews who boasted that they killed Jesus… but I FIRST gave you evidence that Jesus died before I offered an explanation for the “blindness”.
And you might disagree that the evidence I gave for the death of Jesus is not good evidence. But I at least made an attempt to give you some evidence without first just assuming that Jesus died. You on the other hand have not given me any evidence that Jesus did not die… but just assumed it.
what you did was backwards. Instead of FIRST giving us evidence that Jesus didn't die on the cross (which is what I keep asking you for)… you simply ASSUMED that Jesus didn't die… and then after that assumption… you presented some NT verses to try and EXPLAIN why the people were deluded into believing that Jesus died on the cross.
But that is logically backwards and would be an example of putting the cart before the horse… an example of begging the question.
Can you see this Asana? I asked for evidence that Jesus really didn't die, and instead of giving me evidence, you just assumed it, and then tried to EXPLAIN why they were deluded into believing that Jesus died.
Anyway… I can see that i'm repeating myself.
The evidence is the revelation itself, you reject the revelation so you reject the evidence
Quote The bottom lin
e is that you never gave me evidence that Jesus did not die… you just assumed it. Trust me… if there was any evidence at all that Jesus did not die on the cross… you would have immediately… instantly… and in a heart beat.. presented the evidence… and do so with glee and triumph.The evidence is the Revelation itself
Quote You asked me to tell you what did these people possibly see and not see and not undersand in Mark 4:12… Matthew 13:33… and Acts 28:26… if not the crucifixion? I think that a simple, straightforward reading of the text… without any preconceived bias and prejudice… shows that Jesus is refering to spiritual matters… spiritual truth… spiritual blindness.
Think of it in this way… I'm sure that you believe that Christians like myself are spirtiually blind because you say we can't see or understand the “truth” of the Quran. Likewise… Christians like myself say the same exact thing about you… that you and Mohammed are spiritually blind. You can't fully see and hear and understand the spiritual truth found in the Bible. Traditional Orthodox Christians like myself believe that you are blind to the spiritual signficance of the death of Jesus on the cross.. and his subsequent resurrection.
What spiritual signifigance?
Quote Now… I understand that you disagree with my belief that you are spiritually blind… but my point is to simply show you that this answer about what the NT versers were talking about…the spiritual blindness on the part of unbelievers… makes far more sense in the context of what Jesus said in Mark, Matthew and Acts… it makes more sense than your explanation because we say the very same things to each other in this forum… that “you are spiritualy blind and can't see or hear or understand the truth”!! If we say that to each other now… why couldn't Jesus have meant the same thing about the Pharisees and Sadducees and non-believers in the verses you brought up? Take away the Quran… and there is really no other reasonable explanation for those NT verses.
Why would I take away the Quran?
Quote The people that Jesus was refering to were non-believers to begin with, and “The god of this world (Satan) has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ . . . “ (2 Corinthians 4:4) And this… “For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing…The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (1 Corinthians 1:18; 2:14)
That is why I believe that you and Mohammed and the Quran think it is foolish to believe that Jesus died on the cross… because you are spiritually blind.
We don't think it is foolish it was simply revealed that God planned something else for Jesus
Quote Anyway… When the Qur'an speaks of those who have eyes but do not see… (The Qur'an, 7:179)… it does not mean that they are blind, but that they do not perceive the truth of the Quran. Similarly when the Qur'an speaks of those who do not hear (in that same verse), it is the perception of what they actually heard that they have denied. They denied the truth of the Quran that they had heard. That is my understanding of what 7:179 is saying in the Quran. Well… when you apply that kind of reasoning and understanding found in 7:179… to me that is what happened with the Jews in the New Testament. They did kill Jesus the Christ… that is an historical fact that can't be objectively denied… but it is their perception that they had finally destroyed Jesus which is denied. They thought that by their crucifying Him, Jesus would be finished, but He rose from the dead. The crucifixion was not the last word. The resurrection was. So they thought they had killed Him on the cross, but they had not, for He rose again.
No, that won't work if he rose again that means he rose from the dead i.e. he was killed
Quote Interestingly… I think that there is a parallel between the death of Jesus and that of Mohammad's grandson, al-Husein which is worth thinking about and which might help explain what happened when Jesus died on the cross. One writer, commenting on the tragic murder of al-Husein, said:
On the tenth of the month of Moharam in the year 61H, al-Husein was killed and all those who were with him of men, youth and children, except Imam Ali son of al-Husein. And people said that al-Husein wasted his life and the lives of those with him … But time proved the opposite. For the pure blood of al-Husein did not dry up on the soil of Karbala'a until the throne of the Amawites was quaked and the seat of Yazid was shaken. They were days when the power of the Amawite crumbled in shame. And the wonderful victory was on the side of the reformation [of al-Husein]….” (Mohammad Bahr al-'Uloum, al-Hasan wa al-Hosein Imaman in Qama wa in Qa'ada, Dar az-Zahra'a, Beirout Lebanon, 1983 second edition, p. 62)
To me, the above sentiment about Al-Hussein, is the same one that answers the boasting of the Jews who said: “We killed the Christ”. The people said that Al-Husein 'wasted his life… but time proved the opposite… that is, he did not waste his life. The same with Jesus.
You see… both Jesus and Al-Husein were killed (historical fact) by those who were supposed to accept them and honour them… but even so, their lives were not wasted. They both had victory.
And Jesus' victory came when He was resurrected.
We both agree that Jesus was victorious
Quote But there is also a very good illustration in Sura Anfal which helps to understand Jesus' death on the cross on a another level. Traditional, Orthodox Christians believe that even though the Jews wanted Jesus to die because of blasphemy… and even though it was the Romans who actually carried out the death penalty of Jesus… it was God's plan all along for Jesus to die on the cross. Without the cross, there would be no victory that came with the Resurrection.
Anyway… in Sura Anfal 8:15 it says:
“It is not ye who slew them; it was Allah: when thou threwest (a handful of dust), it was not thy act, but Allah's…”
This passage… as I understand it… is describing the response of the Muslim warriors to their victory at the Battle of Badr. They were boasting and taking pride in what they considered was their own achievement.
But this passage is correcting their foolish boasting an
d is instructing them to recognize that it was God who brought it to pass, all that happened that day. The Muslim warriors were only instruments that God used to fulfill His plan.Well… in this same way, God is telling the Jews that their boasting is totally unfounded and in error. They didn't kill the Messiah as they so proudly boasted.
The Jews suffered from two misconceptions that day… the first one is that it was on their own strength and achievement that they were able to have Jesus be killed. God could have stepped in and stopped the whole thing at any time… but it was God's plan all along for Jesus to die so that the victory that came with the Resurrection could happen.
Very good reasoning and logic but the Quran points out
And (the unbelievers) plotted and planned, and allah too planned, and the best of planners is Allah.
( سورة آل عمران , Aal-e-Imran, Chapter #3, Verse #54)This clearly showsit was not in the plan of God for Jesus to be crucified and it certainly was not a desire of Jesus who asked to be saved from the cross 3 times saying Father take this cup from me. He then says never the less NOT MY WILL but yours. The Bible never says what the will of God was concerning that but for sure Jesus was not willing to be killed or Crucified according to the scriptures.
Quote And the 2nd misconception was that in killing Jesus… the Jews thought that they had destroyed Jesus… and that they had finally put a stop to His influence and works and teachings here on earth. They had erroneously thought that by having Jesus killed, they had finally got rid of Jesus who was a source of real irritation and threat to them. Far from Jesus' crucifixion being a humiliating defeat for God or for Jesus… it allowed for a great victory to occur when Jesus was resurrected.
And finally… to demonstrate that this whole idea from you, Mohammed and the Quran that Jesus never died on the cross, and that when the Jews believed and boasted that they had killed Jesus… that it was instead, a delusion sent by God Himself… makes absolutely no sense… I have to ask… what about Jesus' Disciples?
?Jesus was known to give them private teaching as well as public teaching
Quote Where were the disciples of Jesus in the plan and purpose of God if we are to believe the Quran in 4:157 ? How on earth could they… and why would they have… just sit down and let the Jewish leaders spread lies about the crucifixion if Jesus didn't die as you teach? Doesn't it say in the Quran – 3:52, 53:
And when Jesus perceived their unbelief, he said, 'Who will be my helpers unto God?' The apostles said, 'We will be helpers of God' … inscribe us therefore with those who bear witness.”
Well, if they were the helpers of God and if they were to make the truth of God, victorious and known… then where was their voice for God and His Truth concerning the crucifixion? If Jesus was not really crucified or killed, I am sure that they would have spoken up fiercely of what they believed to be the truth… and filled the whole world with it… and even died for it.
Where then is their voice if we are to believe the Quran? Could it truly be possible and conceivable that these Discples of Jesus… whose rank had been elevated to those “who bear witness”… could they really hide themselves and be silent forever? If you believe that is possible… then they do not deserve to be called “helpers of God” or “witnesses”. Instead they should be denounced as frauds as they would have been a huge disappointment to God as helpers and witnesses.
Not at all because a mission is a mission look at what Paul says:
Romans 3:7
For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?Quote But guess what… we know that they did not hide. They did stand up fearlessly and fiercely and spoke bodly about the crucifixion and the resurrection. These Disicples of Jesus were so fearless and so zealous and so committed to truth and to God in spreading what they believed to be the Truth… that even those who are not followers of Jesus… and those who do not believe in the Resurrection of Jesus… the world knows what these Disciples reported and claimed… that Jesus was in fact crucified and that He rose again on the third day. Are you suggesting that the Diciples of Christ… who were the helpers of God… that they were also deceived along with the enemies of God into believing that Jesus was not crucified or killed? Are you saying that Jesus' Disciples and followers and enemies as well… that they were all duped and deceived and deluded by God?
Or maybe you are saying that the story of these Disciples… about them spreading the “Good News”… about them fearlessly and boldly going throught the world to proclaim God's truth… about them dying for their beliefs… was that all a delusion sent by God as well?
No, Jesus told them plainly that he was not a dea body or ghost notice how Jesus did not present himself to any of the authorities or Jewish leaders which would have easily saved us all this time arguing the point. Why would a resurrected not show himself to those who persecuted and killed him unless he was still able to be killed. When Mary saw him and mistook him for being a Gardener why do you think that is so? When the men were walking into town and Jesus was walking with them until they realized it was Jesus why do you think that is so?
Quote No… believing what the Quran said in 4:157… that Jesus didn't die or was not crucified… in spite of the all the evidence that Jesus was crucified… it leads to all kinds of absurdities that can't rationally be defended by an honest and open mind who is not spiritually blind. It would be absurd for a Risen Jesus not capable of being killed again not to appear to those who “killed” him
Quote I have to say, that it is sometimes difficult for me to follow your line of reasoning, but I will give my best and try and deal with your above comments. First off, it is difficult to rebut or argue against a phantom or a ghost or hot air. It just is.
Look again at the verse in the Quran you bring up and which we are discussing:
Quote 1)… And their saying: Surely we have killed the messiah, Jesus son of Mary
, the messenger of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure. (? ??? , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #157) 2)… That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:- (
? ??? , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #157)No where in that verse… nor in the New Testament… does it say that Pilate let Jesus go. So where does that idea come from? How do I argue against or rebut something that is not there to begin with? That's what I mean about trying to argue against a phantom.
And by the way… I think it's very ironic that you will try and discredit or call into question the concepts of the “Trinity” and “Incarnation” in a prior post of mine… on the basis that they are not explicitly mentioned in the Bible… and yet you will turn around in this post of yours and say that Pilate let Jesus go… even though no where in the Quran or the Bible does it say that.
The Bible clearly shows that it was the INTENT of Pilate to let Jesus go but the Bible shows no intent on demonstrating either a trinity or incarnation
Quote So I guess I have to now assume that this delusion which you speak of (that fell on the people who boasted that they had killed Jesus)… this same delusion must have started well before any crucifixion had occured. I could be wrong…. but it appears to me that you are now claiming that not only were the Jews deluded at the crucifixion… but they were also deluded at the trial of Jesus. First they were deluded into believing that Pilate handed Jesus over to be crucified… and then they were deluded into believing that the crucifixion of Jesus actually occured.
Where does this delusion begin and end?
They were not deluded about who they wanted to Kill although they were deluded to think that who they were killing was not th actual Messiah
Quote Maybe Mark 4:12 and Matthew 13:13 can be applied to you and Mohammed? Maybe it was Mohammed who was deluded into believing that Allah spoke to him. Or maybe Jesus was never was arrested or went to a trial in the first place… maybe all that was also a delusion. Or maybe the dream that the wife of Pontious pilate had was also a delulsion. How can you say one way or the other? As I said, it's like trying to rebut or fight a phantom.
Anyway… it seems that you are trying to infer that because the Romans and Pilate had no reason to bow to the will of the minority of Jews who wanted Jesus killed… and because Pilate told the people 3 times that he found Jesus innocent… and because Pilate's wife told him to have nothing to do with Jesus because of a dream she had… then all of this somehow proves or demonstrates that Jesus was let go by Pilate… even though text never says that Pilate let Jesus go.
Obviously if the text doesn't agree that Pilate let Jesus go it wouldn't mean that Pilate didn't let Jesus go if the people believed that Pilate handed over Jesus but the scriptures clearly state that Pilate and Herod found no fault with Jesus and that they had the Power to let Jesus Go
Quote By the way… all records indicate that Pilate was brutal towards the Jews and that his pattern was to avoid doing anything which could be acceptable to the Jews. So, why would he now give in to the Jews who were against Jesus? Why not release Jesus, if only to irritate and tweak the noses of the priests who called for his death? You just backed up my point. If Pilate wanted to let Jesus go he simply would have and what did Pilate say?
Matthew 27:24
When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it.Pilate is here confessing he will have nothing to do with it
Quote It's a good question asked by non-believers… and it's my belief that Pilate did hand Jesus over to be crucified… as the Biblical texts record… even though Pilate was known for being brutal and harsh in his dealings with the Jews… and even though Pilate wouldn't normally have bowed to the will of the Sanhedrin's wishes. Thank you, My point exactly
Quote Something happened that day which effected Pilate … but I don't think it was something supernatural or a delusion from God. You don't need to add something artificial into the narrative mix… like a delusion from God… to make sense of Pilate's strange ambivalence toward Jesus and the Jewish leadership… when he normally mistreated the Jews with vicious disdain. The explanations can be very human and prosaic.
Jesus already explained in his prophetic saying:
Matthew 12:7
But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.And this is what Pilate may have understood because although he had disdain for the Jews for that one Jew Jesus he did not calling him a JUST MAN and WASHING his hands
Quote Here are a couple of factors which can adequately explain Pilate's actions that day. (I'm assuming that the trial actually did occur and that it was no delusion sent by God) 1)... It is possible that the dream that Pilate's wife had, did in fact have some kind of influence on Pilate. That influence could have come from her personal influence over her husband… or that influence could have come from any superstitions that Pilate and his wife may have had. At the time, the Romans had hundreds of gods that they worshipped and believed in. Any people or society that believes in that many gods, is bound to be superstitious.
But
either way… it appears that neither of those possibilities had enough influence to stop Pilate from finally turning Jesus over for a crucifixion. At that moment in time, it appears that something had far more influence over Pilate than his wife's dream.That is… unless you believe Pilate's final verdict to be a delusion sent from God. Which is not supported by the Quran's text nor the New Testament text.[Quote]
No Pilate was not deluded he saw clearly and so did Herod
[Quote]Trying to rebut such a phantom would be impossible. You would have to go beyond simply asserting that a delusion occured, and give me some facts to work with before I could respond with any reasonable counter arguments.
Anyway… in my opinion, the above explanation for Pilate's behavior that day is not as likely as the more prosaic explanation in the following one:
2)… The politcal climate back in Rome changed so much that it put Pilate in danger… both for his career and for his physical safety.
We know that as the prefect of the Roman province of Judea… Pilate served under Emperor Tiberius… but was appointed by regent Aelius Sejanus.
In his mid-sixties, Tiberius' entered semi-retirement on the Island of Carpi in 26 AD… handing over daily Imperial duties of managing Rome, to Sejanus (a former captain of the Praetorian Guard)… and appointing him as the regent in the Capitol.
But while Tiberius embraced and preoccupied himself with a life of unmentionable depravity and cruelty during his semi-retirement on the Island… Sejanus… for 5 years… was able to banish, imprison, eliminate and engineer the suicide of many of his own opponents… as well as Tiberius' potential successors. This is all recorded by Tacitus.
It was apparant that Sejanus was trying to plot and murder his way to the throne. He very nearly did. For 5 years, Tiberius was unaware of what was happening because nearly all communciation from Rome to the Island of Capri, filtered through Sejanus. But Tiberius had a trusted sister-in-law… Antonia… who one day mangaged to send a secret letter to him in which she described Sejanus' web of plots in detail.
Tiberius responded by plotting his own surprise. He sent a lengthy letter to be read before the Roman Senate with Sejanus present. At the end of the letter, Tiberius denounced Sejanus and demanded his arrest. Sejanus was executed the same day… and Tacitus records the date for us… October 18, 31 AD.
Remember that date. It is important for our discussion.
It was Sejanus… during his managing of Rome as Regent… made appointments of many Imperial officials, including Pontius Pilate. Pilate was made Prefect of Judea about the time that Tiberius gave up Rome for Capri.
We also know (because Tacitus tells us) that Sejanus was a notorious anti-Semite… he hated the Jews. And Pilate (chosen by Sejanus)… embraced Sejanus' anti-Jewish policies as he governed Judea.
But what happened to Pilate? Why is it that during Jesus' trial, Pilate is strangely ambivalent toward Jesus and the Jewish leadership when he hated the Jews? What changed?
The answer was that Sejanus was now dead. And now Tiberius began to root out all of Sejanus's appointees and allies. In fact, many were tried, tortured and executed in unspeakable and horrible ways so as to maximize terror and make an example for others who might think of trying to do what Sejanus did.
Tiberius then rescinded all of Sejanus' orders and policies, including his anti-Semitic policies. The new official line was to let the Jews alone.
But remember that this was not a casual change of direction. Tiberius's decree was delivered at the same time that many of the officials that Sejanus had appointed, were horribily tortured and executed. Officials just like Pilate.
As you can well imagine then… after October 18, 31 AD… Pilate lived in a lethal political atmosphere. This would adequately explain Pilate's strange behavior during Jesus' trial. At this moment in time, his anti-semite prejudices could very well cost him his life.
When understood in this context… the words in John 19:12 takes on a whole new meaning for us:
“From then on, Pilate tried to set Jesus free, but the Jews kept shouting, “If you let this man go, you are no friend of Caesar.”
If I was in Pilate's shoes… I would genuinely be afraid as I heard the Jews shouting and chanting and demanding that Christ be executed.
Pilate would have loved to set Jesus free because he could see how much the Sanhedrin wanted Jesus dead… and this would have given him a great opportunity to irritate and thumb his nose at the Jewish leaders. But when the leaders said that Pilate was no friend of Caesar if he let Jesus go… it would explain why he finally bowed before the pressure of the Sanhedrin's demands.
He didn't want to cast any focus on himself and risk a horrible death at the hands of Tiberius.
You are very thorough but the factsare Pilate had strengthened his position because of realizing the truth of Jesus even winning over enemies:
Luke 23:12
And the same day Pilate and Herod were made friends together: for before they were at enmity between themselves.Quote So to sum up this section: 1)… whatever personal influence Pilate's wife had over her husband… and whatever influence her dream might have had in an attemt to convince him to let Jesus go… it wasn't going to be near the influence of living in deadly fear that Tiberious might execute Pilate… like he was doing with most of those officials who were appointed by Sejanus.
So ask yourself this… should Pilate bow to a dream from his wife and let Jesus go? Or should he bow to the humiliating pressure from the Jewish leaders so as to not risk the possibility of being executed if Tiberious heard reports from the Jews that Pilate was not a firend of the Emperor?
Are you kidding? The Jews hated the Romans and Pilate for the ill treatment they received at their hands. If Pilate didn't bow to their demands… you can bet that the Jews would expose Pilate to Tiberius as revenge.
That is why I believe that Pilate didn't let Jesus go during the trial. Because my explanation is far more powerful and makes far more sense than the explanation and/or evidence you brought up in an attempt to show that Jesus was no crucified and put to death.
This is why I say that letting Jesus go but in secret would have made perfect sense especially if Pilate and Herod believed in Jesus and who he really was
Quote Well… I was going to get into the fact that there are many devout Muslims who in fact do believe that it is an historical fact that Jesus really did die and was crucified… and that your understanding of 4:157 in the Quran is not as firm as you wish to believe.
But I have come to the end of my energy. I am exhausted. So I will leave that subject for another time.
Do I get an amen from that? (I'm sure I got one from Mike)
Yours in Christ
FrancisP.S… I didn't have the time or energy to proof read everything, so I apologize for any spelling and grammer mistakes.
I appreciate everything every single letter you typed and I hope you consider my response.
God Bless!
Luke 23:12
And the same day Pilate and Herod were made friends together: for before they were at enmity between themselves.francis,April wrote:[/quote]
This is frustrating, I made a huge reply and somehow it is not up here so here goes again.Quote Just because the Quran says that “they saw Jesus Crucified and yet they saw not and they heard he was killed and yet they did not understand”, it does not automatically and uncritically mean that the crucifixion didn't happen. That is not a good argument because you believe that Jesus was Crucified primarily based on what the Bible teaches, right?
Quote You have to move beyond mere assertion and give us more to work with in the way of evidence. No where in the Mark, Matthew and Acts verses you brought up is there any mention whatseover of the cross or crucifixion or of Jesus being killed or crucified or even of Jews boasting that they killed Jesus. There is nothing in those NT verses for anyone to assume or see that they are talking about the things we see the Quran talking about in chapter #4, Verse #157 of the Quran. No where in those NT verses does it say that the blindness and deafness and nonunderstanding of the Jews is related in anyway to the death of Christ or his crucifixion.
I asked for evidence that the Jews… and all the historians and eyewitnesses who claim that Jesus died and was crucified… that all these people were deluded and that Jesus never really died nor was ever crucified.
Instead of evidence… you give me a verse from the Quran which was written 600 years after the trial of Jesus. In your own words, you gave me an explanation of how people could be deluded into believing that Jesus was Killed/Crucified without giving me any evidence that they were actually deluded.
Yes, they could be deluded according to the Bible
Quote An explanation attempts to explain what the facts mean in a case. That is what an explanation is. You present facts that have something to do with… and is directly related to the issue of the death/crucifixion of Christ… and then you explain those facts. Instead, you present me some NT verses that have absolutely nothing to do with Jesus' death or crucifixion, you present them as facts as if they are referring to Jesus' death.
No they were presented as reference
Quote This can be easily demonstrated in this way: For the moment… let's pretend that the Quran doesn't exist… let's hypothetically go back into time before the Quran was written. Now read those NT verses you gave me. Please tell me Asana, how anyone would think that these verses are are explaining why people would be deluded into thinking that Jesus died or was crucified?
That's interesting because when the Jews ask Christians to give reasons to believe that Jesus is Christ how can they do it without the NT? They can't and your asking me to do the same
Quote I can see how these NT verses can explain why people misunderstood or did not see the SIGNIFICANCE of Jesus' death and crucifixion and His resurrection. But before the explanation can be put forth, that explanation has to come from some facts that need explanaing. What signifigance?
Quote Can you see that Asana? If the Crucifixion and the death of Jesus happened, then those NT verses you gave me can certainly explain why some people didn't understand that the cross and Jesus'Resurrection afterwards… was a victory for God… and not some shameful defeat for God or for Christ.
Ironically, God saving Jesus from the Cross would be a victory for GOD. Jesus dead on the Crosss would be a “victory” for you and those who stake their salvation on Murder
Quote But Asana… please take careful note that in doing so… I first gave evidence that Jesus died (presented to you in 2010)… even going so far as to cite the same Quran verse you are using… and then AFTER giving you the evidence that Jesus died… I then can use the NT verses to EXPLAIN why the Jews did not “see or hear or understand” what they saw… that they did not “see” the spiritual signficance of what they saw happening on the cross as Christ died. What signifigance?
Quote Notice how my use of the NT veses as an explanation of the Jews not “seeing and understanding”… COMES ONLY AFTER I first presented evidence that Jesus died. First came the facts that jesus died.. and then came the verses as an explanation for the blindness on the part of some Jews. We might disagree on my use and interpretation of the NT verses which I used as a way of explaning the “blindness” on the part of the Jews who boasted that they killed Jesus… but I FIRST gave you evidence that Jesus died before I offered an explanation for the “blindness”.
And you might disagree that the evidence I gave for the death of Jesus is not good evidence. But I at least made an attempt to give you some evidence without first just assuming that Jesus died. You on the other hand have not given me any evidence that Jesus did not die… but just assumed it.
what you did was backwards. Instead of FIRST giving us evidence that Jesus didn't die on the cross (which is what I keep asking you for)… you simply ASSUMED that Jesus didn't die… and then after that assumption… you presented some NT verses to try and EXPLAIN why the people were deluded into believing that Jesus died on the cross.
But that is logically backwards and would be an example of putting the cart before the horse… an example of begging the question.
Can you see this Asana? I asked for evidence that Jesus really didn't die, and instead of giving me evidence, you just assumed it, and then tried to EXPLAIN why they were deluded into believing that Jesus died.
Anyway… I can see that i'm repeating myself.
The evidence is the revelation itself, you reject the revelation so you reject the evidence
Quote The bottom line is that you never gave me evidence that Jesus did not die… you just assumed it. Trust me… if there was any evidence at all that Jesus did not die on the cross… you
would have immediately… instantly… and in a heart beat.. presented the evidence… and do so with glee and triumph.The evidence is the Revelation itself
Quote You asked me to tell you what did these people possibly see and not see and not undersand in Mark 4:12… Matthew 13:33… and Acts 28:26… if not the crucifixion? I think that a simple, straightforward reading of the text… without any preconceived bias and prejudice… shows that Jesus is refering to spiritual matters… spiritual truth… spiritual blindness.
Think of it in this way… I'm sure that you believe that Christians like myself are spirtiually blind because you say we can't see or understand the “truth” of the Quran. Likewise… Christians like myself say the same exact thing about you… that you and Mohammed are spiritually blind. You can't fully see and hear and understand the spiritual truth found in the Bible. Traditional Orthodox Christians like myself believe that you are blind to the spiritual signficance of the death of Jesus on the cross.. and his subsequent resurrection.
What spiritual signifigance?
Quote Now… I understand that you disagree with my belief that you are spiritually blind… but my point is to simply show you that this answer about what the NT versers were talking about…the spiritual blindness on the part of unbelievers… makes far more sense in the context of what Jesus said in Mark, Matthew and Acts… it makes more sense than your explanation because we say the very same things to each other in this forum… that “you are spiritualy blind and can't see or hear or understand the truth”!! If we say that to each other now… why couldn't Jesus have meant the same thing about the Pharisees and Sadducees and non-believers in the verses you brought up? Take away the Quran… and there is really no other reasonable explanation for those NT verses.
Why would I take away the Quran?
Quote The people that Jesus was refering to were non-believers to begin with, and “The god of this world (Satan) has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ . . . “ (2 Corinthians 4:4) And this… “For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing…The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (1 Corinthians 1:18; 2:14)
That is why I believe that you and Mohammed and the Quran think it is foolish to believe that Jesus died on the cross… because you are spiritually blind.
We don't think it is foolish it was simply revealed that God planned something else for Jesus
Quote Anyway… When the Qur'an speaks of those who have eyes but do not see… (The Qur'an, 7:179)… it does not mean that they are blind, but that they do not perceive the truth of the Quran. Similarly when the Qur'an speaks of those who do not hear (in that same verse), it is the perception of what they actually heard that they have denied. They denied the truth of the Quran that they had heard. That is my understanding of what 7:179 is saying in the Quran. Well… when you apply that kind of reasoning and understanding found in 7:179… to me that is what happened with the Jews in the New Testament. They did kill Jesus the Christ… that is an historical fact that can't be objectively denied… but it is their perception that they had finally destroyed Jesus which is denied. They thought that by their crucifying Him, Jesus would be finished, but He rose from the dead. The crucifixion was not the last word. The resurrection was. So they thought they had killed Him on the cross, but they had not, for He rose again.
No, that won't work if he rose again that means he rose from the dead i.e. he was killed
Quote Interestingly… I think that there is a parallel between the death of Jesus and that of Mohammad's grandson, al-Husein which is worth thinking about and which might help explain what happened when Jesus died on the cross. One writer, commenting on the tragic murder of al-Husein, said:
On the tenth of the month of Moharam in the year 61H, al-Husein was killed and all those who were with him of men, youth and children, except Imam Ali son of al-Husein. And people said that al-Husein wasted his life and the lives of those with him … But time proved the opposite. For the pure blood of al-Husein did not dry up on the soil of Karbala'a until the throne of the Amawites was quaked and the seat of Yazid was shaken. They were days when the power of the Amawite crumbled in shame. And the wonderful victory was on the side of the reformation [of al-Husein]….” (Mohammad Bahr al-'Uloum, al-Hasan wa al-Hosein Imaman in Qama wa in Qa'ada, Dar az-Zahra'a, Beirout Lebanon, 1983 second edition, p. 62)
To me, the above sentiment about Al-Hussein, is the same one that answers the boasting of the Jews who said: “We killed the Christ”. The people said that Al-Husein 'wasted his life… but time proved the opposite… that is, he did not waste his life. The same with Jesus.
You see… both Jesus and Al-Husein were killed (historical fact) by those who were supposed to accept them and honour them… but even so, their lives were not wasted. They both had victory.
And Jesus' victory came when He was resurrected.
We both agree that Jesus was victorious
Quote But there is also a very good illustration in Sura Anfal which helps to understand Jesus' death on the cross on a another level. Traditional, Orthodox Christians believe that even though the Jews wanted Jesus to die because of blasphemy… and even though it was the Romans who actually carried out the death penalty of Jesus… it was God's plan all along for Jesus to die on the cross. Without the cross, there would be no victory that came with the Resurrection.
Anyway… in Sura Anfal 8:15 it says:
“It is not ye who slew them; it was Allah: when thou threwest (a handful of dust), it was not thy act, but Allah's…”
This passage… as I understand it… is describing the response of the Muslim warriors to their victory at the Battle of Badr. They were boasting and taking pride in what they considered was their own achievement.
But this passage is correcting their foolish boasting and is instructing them to recognize that it was God who brought it to pass, all that happened that day. The Muslim warriors were only instruments that God used to fulfill H
is plan.Well… in this same way, God is telling the Jews that their boasting is totally unfounded and in error. They didn't kill the Messiah as they so proudly boasted.
The Jews suffered from two misconceptions that day… the first one is that it was on their own strength and achievement that they were able to have Jesus be killed. God could have stepped in and stopped the whole thing at any time… but it was God's plan all along for Jesus to die so that the victory that came with the Resurrection could happen.
Very good reasoning and logic but the Quran points out
And (the unbelievers) plotted and planned, and allah too planned, and the best of planners is Allah.
( سورة آل عمران , Aal-e-Imran, Chapter #3, Verse #54)This clearly showsit was not in the plan of God for Jesus to be crucified and it certainly was not a desire of Jesus who asked to be saved from the cross 3 times saying Father take this cup from me. He then says never the less NOT MY WILL but yours. The Bible never says what the will of God was concerning that but for sure Jesus was not willing to be killed or Crucified according to the scriptures.
Quote And the 2nd misconception was that in killing Jesus… the Jews thought that they had destroyed Jesus… and that they had finally put a stop to His influence and works and teachings here on earth. They had erroneously thought that by having Jesus killed, they had finally got rid of Jesus who was a source of real irritation and threat to them. Far from Jesus' crucifixion being a humiliating defeat for God or for Jesus… it allowed for a great victory to occur when Jesus was resurrected.
And finally… to demonstrate that this whole idea from you, Mohammed and the Quran that Jesus never died on the cross, and that when the Jews believed and boasted that they had killed Jesus… that it was instead, a delusion sent by God Himself… makes absolutely no sense… I have to ask… what about Jesus' Disciples?
?Jesus was known to give them private teaching as well as public teaching
Quote Where were the disciples of Jesus in the plan and purpose of God if we are to believe the Quran in 4:157 ? How on earth could they… and why would they have… just sit down and let the Jewish leaders spread lies about the crucifixion if Jesus didn't die as you teach? Doesn't it say in the Quran – 3:52, 53:
And when Jesus perceived their unbelief, he said, 'Who will be my helpers unto God?' The apostles said, 'We will be helpers of God' … inscribe us therefore with those who bear witness.”
Well, if they were the helpers of God and if they were to make the truth of God, victorious and known… then where was their voice for God and His Truth concerning the crucifixion? If Jesus was not really crucified or killed, I am sure that they would have spoken up fiercely of what they believed to be the truth… and filled the whole world with it… and even died for it.
Where then is their voice if we are to believe the Quran? Could it truly be possible and conceivable that these Discples of Jesus… whose rank had been elevated to those “who bear witness”… could they really hide themselves and be silent forever? If you believe that is possible… then they do not deserve to be called “helpers of God” or “witnesses”. Instead they should be denounced as frauds as they would have been a huge disappointment to God as helpers and witnesses.
Not at all because a mission is a mission look at what Paul says:
Romans 3:7
For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?Quote But guess what… we know that they did not hide. They did stand up fearlessly and fiercely and spoke bodly about the crucifixion and the resurrection. These Disicples of Jesus were so fearless and so zealous and so committed to truth and to God in spreading what they believed to be the Truth… that even those who are not followers of Jesus… and those who do not believe in the Resurrection of Jesus… the world knows what these Disciples reported and claimed… that Jesus was in fact crucified and that He rose again on the third day. Are you suggesting that the Diciples of Christ… who were the helpers of God… that they were also deceived along with the enemies of God into believing that Jesus was not crucified or killed? Are you saying that Jesus' Disciples and followers and enemies as well… that they were all duped and deceived and deluded by God?
Or maybe you are saying that the story of these Disciples… about them spreading the “Good News”… about them fearlessly and boldly going throught the world to proclaim God's truth… about them dying for their beliefs… was that all a delusion sent by God as well?
No, Jesus told them plainly that he was not a dea body or ghost notice how Jesus did not present himself to any of the authorities or Jewish leaders which would have easily saved us all this time arguing the point. Why would a resurrected not show himself to those who persecuted and killed him unless he was still able to be killed. When Mary saw him and mistook him for being a Gardener why do you think that is so? When the men were walking into town and Jesus was walking with them until they realized it was Jesus why do you think that is so?
Quote No… believing what the Quran said in 4:157… that Jesus didn't die or was not crucified… in spite of the all the evidence that Jesus was crucified… it leads to all kinds of absurdities that can't rationally be defended by an honest and open mind who is not spiritually blind. It would be absurd for a Risen Jesus not capable of being killed again not to appear to those who “killed” him
Quote I have to say, that it is sometimes difficult for me to follow your line of reasoning, but I will give my best and try and deal with your above comments. First off, it is difficult to rebut or argue against a phantom or a ghost or hot air. It just is.
Look again at the verse in the Quran you bring up and which we are discussing:
Quote 1)… And their saying: Surely we have killed the messiah, Jesus son of Mary, the messenger of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt a
bout it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure. (? ??? , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #157) 2)… That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:- (
? ??? , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #157)No where in that verse… nor in the New Testament… does it say that Pilate let Jesus go. So where does that idea come from? How do I argue against or rebut something that is not there to begin with? That's what I mean about trying to argue against a phantom.
And by the way… I think it's very ironic that you will try and discredit or call into question the concepts of the “Trinity” and “Incarnation” in a prior post of mine… on the basis that they are not explicitly mentioned in the Bible… and yet you will turn around in this post of yours and say that Pilate let Jesus go… even though no where in the Quran or the Bible does it say that.
The Bible clearly shows that it was the INTENT of Pilate to let Jesus go but the Bible shows no intent on demonstrating either a trinity or incarnation
Quote So I guess I have to now assume that this delusion which you speak of (that fell on the people who boasted that they had killed Jesus)… this same delusion must have started well before any crucifixion had occured. I could be wrong…. but it appears to me that you are now claiming that not only were the Jews deluded at the crucifixion… but they were also deluded at the trial of Jesus. First they were deluded into believing that Pilate handed Jesus over to be crucified… and then they were deluded into believing that the crucifixion of Jesus actually occured.
Where does this delusion begin and end?
They were not deluded about who they wanted to Kill although they were deluded to think that who they were killing was not th actual Messiah
Quote Maybe Mark 4:12 and Matthew 13:13 can be applied to you and Mohammed? Maybe it was Mohammed who was deluded into believing that Allah spoke to him. Or maybe Jesus was never was arrested or went to a trial in the first place… maybe all that was also a delusion. Or maybe the dream that the wife of Pontious pilate had was also a delulsion. How can you say one way or the other? As I said, it's like trying to rebut or fight a phantom.
Anyway… it seems that you are trying to infer that because the Romans and Pilate had no reason to bow to the will of the minority of Jews who wanted Jesus killed… and because Pilate told the people 3 times that he found Jesus innocent… and because Pilate's wife told him to have nothing to do with Jesus because of a dream she had… then all of this somehow proves or demonstrates that Jesus was let go by Pilate… even though text never says that Pilate let Jesus go.
Obviously if the text doesn't agree that Pilate let Jesus go it wouldn't mean that Pilate didn't let Jesus go if the people believed that Pilate handed over Jesus but the scriptures clearly state that Pilate and Herod found no fault with Jesus and that they had the Power to let Jesus Go
Quote By the way… all records indicate that Pilate was brutal towards the Jews and that his pattern was to avoid doing anything which could be acceptable to the Jews. So, why would he now give in to the Jews who were against Jesus? Why not release Jesus, if only to irritate and tweak the noses of the priests who called for his death? You just backed up my point. If Pilate wanted to let Jesus go he simply would have and what did Pilate say?
Matthew 27:24
When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it.Pilate is here confessing he will have nothing to do with it
Quote It's a good question asked by non-believers… and it's my belief that Pilate did hand Jesus over to be crucified… as the Biblical texts record… even though Pilate was known for being brutal and harsh in his dealings with the Jews… and even though Pilate wouldn't normally have bowed to the will of the Sanhedrin's wishes. Thank you, My point exactly
Quote Something happened that day which effected Pilate … but I don't think it was something supernatural or a delusion from God. You don't need to add something artificial into the narrative mix… like a delusion from God… to make sense of Pilate's strange ambivalence toward Jesus and the Jewish leadership… when he normally mistreated the Jews with vicious disdain. The explanations can be very human and prosaic.
Jesus already explained in his prophetic saying:
Matthew 12:7
But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.And this is what Pilate may have understood because although he had disdain for the Jews for that one Jew Jesus he did not calling him a JUST MAN and WASHING his hands
Quote Here are a couple of factors which can adequately explain Pilate's actions that day. (I'm assuming that the trial actually did occur and that it was no delusion sent by God) 1)... It is possible that the dream that Pilate's wife had, did in fact have some kind of influence on Pilate. That influence could have come from her personal influence over her husband… or that influence could have come from any superstitions that Pilate and his wife may have had. At the time, the Romans had hundreds of gods that they worshipped and believed in. Any people or society that believes in that many gods, is bound to be superstitious.
But either way… it appears that neither of those possibilities had enough influence to stop Pilate from finally turning Jesus over for a crucifixion. At that moment in ti
me, it appears that something had far more influence over Pilate than his wife's dream.That is… unless you believe Pilate's final verdict to be a delusion sent from God. Which is not supported by the Quran's text nor the New Testament text.[Quote]
No Pilate was not deluded he saw clearly and so did Herod
[Quote]Trying to rebut such a phantom would be impossible. You would have to go beyond simply asserting that a delusion occured, and give me some facts to work with before I could respond with any reasonable counter arguments.
Anyway… in my opinion, the above explanation for Pilate's behavior that day is not as likely as the more prosaic explanation in the following one:
2)… The politcal climate back in Rome changed so much that it put Pilate in danger… both for his career and for his physical safety.
We know that as the prefect of the Roman province of Judea… Pilate served under Emperor Tiberius… but was appointed by regent Aelius Sejanus.
In his mid-sixties, Tiberius' entered semi-retirement on the Island of Carpi in 26 AD… handing over daily Imperial duties of managing Rome, to Sejanus (a former captain of the Praetorian Guard)… and appointing him as the regent in the Capitol.
But while Tiberius embraced and preoccupied himself with a life of unmentionable depravity and cruelty during his semi-retirement on the Island… Sejanus… for 5 years… was able to banish, imprison, eliminate and engineer the suicide of many of his own opponents… as well as Tiberius' potential successors. This is all recorded by Tacitus.
It was apparant that Sejanus was trying to plot and murder his way to the throne. He very nearly did. For 5 years, Tiberius was unaware of what was happening because nearly all communciation from Rome to the Island of Capri, filtered through Sejanus. But Tiberius had a trusted sister-in-law… Antonia… who one day mangaged to send a secret letter to him in which she described Sejanus' web of plots in detail.
Tiberius responded by plotting his own surprise. He sent a lengthy letter to be read before the Roman Senate with Sejanus present. At the end of the letter, Tiberius denounced Sejanus and demanded his arrest. Sejanus was executed the same day… and Tacitus records the date for us… October 18, 31 AD.
Remember that date. It is important for our discussion.
It was Sejanus… during his managing of Rome as Regent… made appointments of many Imperial officials, including Pontius Pilate. Pilate was made Prefect of Judea about the time that Tiberius gave up Rome for Capri.
We also know (because Tacitus tells us) that Sejanus was a notorious anti-Semite… he hated the Jews. And Pilate (chosen by Sejanus)… embraced Sejanus' anti-Jewish policies as he governed Judea.
But what happened to Pilate? Why is it that during Jesus' trial, Pilate is strangely ambivalent toward Jesus and the Jewish leadership when he hated the Jews? What changed?
The answer was that Sejanus was now dead. And now Tiberius began to root out all of Sejanus's appointees and allies. In fact, many were tried, tortured and executed in unspeakable and horrible ways so as to maximize terror and make an example for others who might think of trying to do what Sejanus did.
Tiberius then rescinded all of Sejanus' orders and policies, including his anti-Semitic policies. The new official line was to let the Jews alone.
But remember that this was not a casual change of direction. Tiberius's decree was delivered at the same time that many of the officials that Sejanus had appointed, were horribily tortured and executed. Officials just like Pilate.
As you can well imagine then… after October 18, 31 AD… Pilate lived in a lethal political atmosphere. This would adequately explain Pilate's strange behavior during Jesus' trial. At this moment in time, his anti-semite prejudices could very well cost him his life.
When understood in this context… the words in John 19:12 takes on a whole new meaning for us:
“From then on, Pilate tried to set Jesus free, but the Jews kept shouting, “If you let this man go, you are no friend of Caesar.”
If I was in Pilate's shoes… I would genuinely be afraid as I heard the Jews shouting and chanting and demanding that Christ be executed.
Pilate would have loved to set Jesus free because he could see how much the Sanhedrin wanted Jesus dead… and this would have given him a great opportunity to irritate and thumb his nose at the Jewish leaders. But when the leaders said that Pilate was no friend of Caesar if he let Jesus go… it would explain why he finally bowed before the pressure of the Sanhedrin's demands.
He didn't want to cast any focus on himself and risk a horrible death at the hands of Tiberius.
You are very thorough but the factsare Pilate had strengthened his position because of realizing the truth of Jesus even winning over enemies:
Luke 23:12
And the same day Pilate and Herod were made friends together: for before they were at enmity between themselves.Quote So to sum up this section: 1)… whatever personal influence Pilate's wife had over her husband… and whatever influence her dream might have had in an attemt to convince him to let Jesus go… it wasn't going to be near the influence of living in deadly fear that Tiberious might execute Pilate… like he was doing with most of those officials who were appointed by Sejanus.
So ask yourself this… should Pilate bow to a dream from his wife and let Jesus go? Or should he bow to the humiliating pressure from the Jewish leaders so as to not risk the possibility of being executed if Tiberious heard reports from the Jews that Pilate was not a firend of the Emperor?
Are you kidding? The Jews hated the Romans and Pilate for the ill treatment they received at their hands. If Pilate didn't bow to their demands… you can bet that the Jews would expose Pilate to Tiberius as revenge.
That is why I believe that Pilate didn't let Jesus go during the trial. Because my explanation is far more powerful and makes far more sense than the explanation and/or evidence you brought up in an attempt to show that Jesus was no crucified and put to death.
This is why I say that letting Jesus go but in secret would have made perfect sense especially if Pilate and Herod believed in Jesus and who he really was
Quote Well… I was going to get into the fact that there are many devout Muslims who in fact do believe that it is an historical fact that Jesus really did die and was crucified… and that your understanding of 4:157 in the Quran is not as firm as you wish to believe.
But I have come to the end of my energy. I am exhausted. So I will leave that subject for another time.
Do I get an amen from that? (I'm sure I got one from Mike)
Yours in Christ
FrancisP.S… I didn't have the time or energy to proof read everything, so I apologize for any spelling and grammer mistakes.
I appreciate everything every single letter you typed and I hope you consider my response.
God Bless!
Thanks Asana for your timely reply.
I wasn't able to finish my response… and now it is 1am in the morning and I have to get up at 7am and go to work. After that… I have to spend the rest of Sunday to prep for my Bible study on Monday night.
So I won't be able to finish my response until after Monday night. My Bible study goes until 1am. So realistically, it probably won't be until Tuesday that I can finish my response.
Knowing that, I tried to finish tonight… but it was too much because there is so much real estate to cover.
So i'm sorry for the delay.
Yours in Christ
FrancisQuote (francis @ April 29 2012,17:12) Thanks Asana for your timely reply. I wasn't able to finish my response… and now it is 1am in the morning and I have to get up at 7am and go to work. After that… I have to spend the rest of Sunday to prep for my Bible study on Monday night.
So I won't be able to finish my response until after Monday night. My Bible study goes until 1am. So realistically, it probably won't be until Tuesday that I can finish my response.
Knowing that, I tried to finish tonight… but it was too much because there is so much real estate to cover.
So i'm sorry for the delay.
Yours in Christ
Francis
Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, “We are Christians”: because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.
( سورة المائدة , Al-Maeda, Chapter #5, Verse #82)I look forward to it, God Bless you Francis
Quote (francis @ April 28 2012,23:50) Hello Asana… Quote I don't think it's necessary to question our friendship or love for one another, that to me goes without saying. Thanks Asana… I will never question our friendship again.
Hi Francis,You need to see what islam really teaches…
Quote (bodhitharta @ April 28 2012,16:46) I HAD MADE A MASSIVE REPLTY TO THIS POST, WHAT HAPPENED TO IT?
I feel for you on that one, Asana. Back when I did the long debates, I once spent FIVE HOURS researching and posting a response, just for it to completely disappear. Talk about frustrating!
I'm sorry that happened to you.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 30 2012,07:31) Quote (bodhitharta @ April 28 2012,16:46) I HAD MADE A MASSIVE REPLTY TO THIS POST, WHAT HAPPENED TO IT?
I feel for you on that one, Asana. Back when I did the long debates, I once spent FIVE HOURS researching and posting a response, just for it to completely disappear. Talk about frustrating!I'm sorry that happened to you.
Yea, I had to hope I was half as thorough the second time.Thanks for the empathy. I appreciate it because I really was like, I know Francis has made a very long post so I am going to really take the time to answer everything, because if he took the time to write it I should take the time for a proper response especially since all his writing was sincere and in earnest.
Quote (Stu @ April 28 2012,17:25) Quote (t8 @ April 27 2012,22:34) Quote (francis @ April 26 2012,13:04) Like Jesus did in the NT… if you won't answer my question, then I won't answer yours. Having a dialogue means both sides have to be willing to contribute and answer questions when asked of them. Yours in Christ
Francis.
Very true, yet also on short supply with some.I am convinced that people who resort to this, do so because it is about saving face when they cannot give a reason as to why they believe they are right or you are wrong.
I certainly would respect a person who gave me straight answers (even if they said, “I don't know). Why? Because it would show that they were willing to learn truth and that they were honest…
…and you are willing to teach the Truth™ to them, right?Stuart
And am willing to be corrected and consider what others say.
There has to be substance to what someone says and then I can weigh it up.But you have offered nothing but child-like refutation. I need more than that Stu.
Quote (t8 @ May 26 2012,11:21) Quote (Stu @ April 28 2012,17:25) Quote (t8 @ April 27 2012,22:34) Quote (francis @ April 26 2012,13:04) Like Jesus did in the NT… if you won't answer my question, then I won't answer yours. Having a dialogue means both sides have to be willing to contribute and answer questions when asked of them. Yours in Christ
Francis.
Very true, yet also on short supply with some.I am convinced that people who resort to this, do so because it is about saving face when they cannot give a reason as to why they believe they are right or you are wrong.
I certainly would respect a person who gave me straight answers (even if they said, “I don't know). Why? Because it would show that they were willing to learn truth and that they were honest…
…and you are willing to teach the Truth™ to them, right?Stuart
And am willing to be corrected and consider what others say.
There has to be substance to what someone says and then I can weigh it up.But you have offered nothing but child-like refutation. I need more than that Stu.
You changed some of the material about evolution on this website about the same time I raised objections. None of it seems to be available currently for confirmation of that, but that was my recollection.So you demonstrated that you were willing to be corrected, although there wasn't much acknowledgment from you in the threads where it was discussed.
Children can come up with quite profound refutation at times, for example they are good at spotting cases of the emperor's new clothes. Perhaps that is why around 65% of young people have no god belief.
Stuart
Quote (bodhitharta @ April 05 2012,12:39) Everyone here that I know of says they cannot accept the Quran, that they follow the Bible but the strangest thing of all was given to them by People they vehemently oppose which is the Catholic Church many if not most here have nothing nice to say about this Church and yet they trust implicitly how that church who compiled the Bible handled the information. That is the strangest thing of all
Couldn't be further from the truth.
The 5000+ manuscripts copied faithfully, and textually accurate, have been passed down through the ages since the Apostles of Jesus.
The Catholics didn't even exist until 300 odd years after Jesus.
By then, the manuscripts had already spread far and wide and in such numbers that any attempt at tampering textually with the manuscripts would be swiftly identified by such holders of said copies that were spread so far & wide, and exposed quite easily.
This is why the Catholics, under threat of death, permitted no man to own the written word or teach any doctrine contradicting their own in the lands they controlled., so they could hide the truth within the scriptures and teach their own version unchallenged, of which most had no idea they were twisting to their own ends.
The Catholics did their utmost to kill anybody who was in possession of any of these copied manuscripts for 900 odd years or taught the true way by instruction of the true doctrine within said manuscripts.
They failed in the end.Just because the mainstream religions are tainted by their mother, the Catholic church to varying degrees, most notably the pagan trinity doctrine they are ALL deceived by, there are still millions upon millions of Christians who take no part in organized religion or trinity.
These are the ones whom God used to preserve His written word of which we still have today.We also have a resurgence (last 150 years) of the false doctrine sourced from the corrupt gnostic Alexandrian manuscripts of which the Catholics admire and promote, of which the mainstream religions are once again embracing with their multitude of “bible versions”, the true cause for the 40 odd thousand contradictory doctrines we see today in “Christianity”, most likely, and unbeknown to YOU, the “religion” that this said post is subtly mocking, of whom your ill informed statement actually applies to.
Your claim is not accurate when applied to Christs true preserved written word, nor His true followers.
Quote (bodhitharta @ April 19 2012,04:10) The trinity was an invention that took the church by storm and so was making Jesus “GOD” There is even old literature that has been found that shows that at the time no one thought Jesus was God and that was my point the main body of Christians believe what the Catholic Church taught and then they reject the Catholic Church these are all the churches daughters over 39,000 denominations
Bod,The true believers understood that Jesus was not God the FATHER.
But the Son, the WORD made flesh.
And when Christ ascended, the Father Himself crowned Jesus as God and COMMANDED He be worshipped.
Christ is now SPIRIT again.
Jesus speaks the SAME word as God.
Thinks the same as God.
Acts the same as God.
God is ONE within not only His own, but in His Son also.
Hence ONE God is never broken even with Christ also crowned as God…crowned BY God Himself.
NO trinity exists.
It is a pagan inspired fairytale.Quote (bodhitharta @ April 20 2012,15:45) Christians say Jesus died on the cross the Quran does not disagree with the belief of the Christian it disagrees with
the information itself. There is no debate that Jesus was believed to be killed or Crucified the Quran is saying that I understand your belief but it didn't happen he was not killed or crucified but it appeared to be so.Didn't Isaiah say seeing they do not see and hearing they do not hear? This is proof of that.
And their saying: Surely we have killed the messiah, Jesus son of Mary, the messenger of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.
( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #157)
A Hoax and its ParadoxesThe Cruci-fiction of the Qur’an
Masud Masihiyyen
It will not be an exaggeration if we say that Islam and its scripture dissent from the fundamental doctrines of Christianity from cradle to grave, for most of the Qur’an verses interpret both Jesus’ miraculous birth and His passion in a totally different and controversial way. In sharp contrast to what Christian scripture teaches about Jesus’ crucifixion, the Qur’an overtly rejects Jesus’ passion and death, implicitly endorsing a theory of illusion or a case of mistaken identity:
And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure. Nay! Allah took him up to Himself; and Allah is Mighty, Wise. (Surah 4:157-158)1
Being rather vague and open to interpretation, these Qur’an verses take the form of an unsolvable mystery in the hands of Muslim apologists who ironically contribute to their obscurity through their differing and puzzling comments. This kind of a disagreement concerning the true meaning of the verses quoted above condemns the Qur’an into a chain of paradoxes that subsequently undermine the validity and credibility of the Islamic hypothesis about Jesus’ crucifixion.
The first paradox is based on the allegation that “the ones bragging about crucifying and killing Jesus the Messiah” are followers of a conjecture as they do not know anything about this incident. These verses most likely address the Jews and designate them as ignorant people who did not know what had actually happened at the time of Jesus’ crucifixion. However, the same verses somehow fail to explain to mankind all the supposed mysteries of the crucifixion as they do not allow even Muslims to comprehend how and why Jesus was saved from the cross. Thus, Muslims and non-Muslims alike are deprived of the divine knowledge, without which their opinions remain as conjecture awaiting authorization from above.
The second paradox, derived from the erroneous argument that disagreements prove doubt as well as inadequate knowledge, is embedded in the following statement that ascribes ignorance to people who are said to have differing views about Jesus’ crucifixion:
… most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it… (Surah 4:157)
Apparently, either there is a problem with the linguistic structure of this particular verse or it contains a logical fallacy. In the first place, Muslims cannot be exempt from the charges of doubt and ignorance since they absolutely dissent from Christians and Jews when they deny Jesus’ crucifixion. Second, the quoted verse does not narrow the content and form of disagreement, confirming the idea that Jewish or Christian groups do not know anything about Jesus’ crucifixion because they disagree among themselves. If we suppose that one group dissented from the other by denying Jesus’ death, even that certain group would be condemned to following speculations despite the fact that they concurred on the denial presented in the Qur’an. As a result, the Islamic scripture surprisingly teaches that whoever denies Jesus’ crucifixion as a matter of disagreement has nothing else than doubt!
The third paradox is related to the following Qur’an verse:
And when Allah said: O Isa, I am going to terminate the period of your stay (on earth) and cause you to ascend unto Me and purify you of those who disbelieve and make those who follow you above those who disbelieve to the day of resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, so l will decide between you concerning that in which you differed. (Surah 3:55).
In this verse Allah supposedly speaks to Jesus and promises to cleanse Him from all His disbelieving adversaries. The striking feature of this alleged statement is that it refers to Jesus’ ascension, which occurs also in Surah 4:155-158, where the negation of Jesus’ crucifixion and death are strengthened through His relevant ascension to Allah. The meaning of the Arabic word “waffa” occurring in this verse is still disputed among Muslims apologists2 as to whether Jesus experienced a physical death prior to His ascension or not, but this does not change the fact that the Qur’an considered Jesus’ ascension the termination of His earthly life and prophetic mission. This conclusion begets the question why Jesus’ physical departure from this world had to coincide with the Jewish resistance and disbelief. A similar question is why Allah would ever let the Jewish disbelief result in the forced end of Jesus’ prophetic ministry.
When we analyze the aftermath of Jesus’ alleged ascension in the Qur’an, we can see that this incident has a disappointing result for Jesus, who is targeted by a disbelieving community. This is merely because the inevitable end of Jesus’ mission in the form of a bodily departure and isolation from this world signifies His foes’ salvation from Him more than His own rescue from their hands. More to the point, those who disbelieve and plan to take Jesus out of their lives are absolutely grateful to the god of Islam, who takes Jesus out of this world before they bother to punish Him and shed His blood. Thus, it surprisingly becomes impossible for the god of Islam to blame some Jews of Jesus’ time for crucifying and killing Him. As there is no victim, there is neither guilt nor accusation.
However, some Islamic groups deem it necessary to reinterpret Surah 3:55 as they are not pleased with the idea of Jesus’ physical death prior to His ascension. This they can achieve through the symbolic parallelism they draw between death and sleep, which finds support in another Qur’an verse likening sleep at night to the state of death3. Their relevant conclusion is that Jesus was taken up alive, and that He will die after His second coming4. This approach to the form of Jesus’ ascension – which is the result of an attempt to harmonize the tension between the verses of the Islamic scripture – aims to radically distinguish the Islamic tenet concerning Jesus’ glorification from the basic Christian tenet binding Jesus’ glorification to His passion and death. St. Paul the apostle stresses the relation between Jesus’ passion and exaltation when he writes that Jesus’ humility became manifest in His incarnation and culminated in His surrender to death on a cross5. Thus, in Christian theology of salvation, Jesus’ glorification is preceded by and cannot be separated from His physical death. The literal interp
retation of the verb “cause to die/end one’s life” in Surah 3:55 is thus discarded by some Muslim apologists who want to evade any thematic or linguistic affinity between the means of Jesus’ exaltation in Christianity and in Islam.Nevertheless, the symbolic interpretation of Jesus’ bodily departure from our world in Surah 3:55 paradoxically becomes more troublesome for its adherents. The assertion that Jesus did not experience a physical death prior to His ascension makes Him a figure that was granted eternal life before Mohammad, which contradicts a Qur’an verse:
And We did not ordain abiding for any mortal before you. What! Then if you die, will they abide? (Surah 21:34)
Besides, Jesus’ infancy narrative in the 19th Surah of the Qur’an contains some statements that make Jesus equal to a messenger named Yahya (John the Baptist) in terms of physical death and resurrection:
And peace on him on the day he was born, and on the day he dies, and on the day he is raised to life. (Surah 19:15)
And peace on me on the day I was born, and on the day I die, and on the day I am raised to life. (Surah 19:33)
Another Qur’an verse implies that ALL the messengers/prophets before Muhammad passed away:
And Muhammad is no more than an apostle; the apostles have already passed away before him; if then he dies or is killed will you turn back upon your heels? (Surah 3:144)
According to the Qur’an, every human must experience death:
Every soul must taste of death and We try you by evil and good by way of probation; and to Us you shall be brought back. (Surah 21:35)
At this point, Muslim scholars are torn between making Jesus exempt from death through their symbolic interpretation of Surah 3:55 and making Jesus subject to death because of the verses quoted above. In order to find a way out of this paradox, they make use of Jesus’ second coming at the end of times, which is a purely Christian concept compatible with the apocalyptic doctrines of Jesus’ universal Kingdom and divine authority as the Judge of the mankind6. Consequently, bringing Jesus down from the sky just before the Day of Judgment signifies for some Muslim scholars the only way of terminating Jesus’ long life so that He can be adapted to the former messengers and prophets of the Qur’an, all of whom are said to have passed away.
This sort of reasoning adds a new item to the list of contrasts between Islamic and Christian creed. Although both faith systems believe in the second coming of Jesus to our world, the chronology of the events in Jesus’ life has a sharp contrast. In Christianity Jesus experiences death during His first advent and conquers death on the third day. His resurrection proves that death has no more dominion over Him7, as a result of which He comes the second time not to die, but to judge the living and the dead and proclaim His eternal Kingdom. Islam reverses this order by claiming that Jesus will come the second time to die as death had no dominion over Him during His first advent until His ascension. More interestingly, Jesus in Christianity comes the first time so that He can save mankind through His death whereas in Islam Jesus comes the second time so that He can die and save some Muslim apologists from a theological problem.
In addition, the Qur’an verse used as a reference for the prediction of Jesus’ second coming is highly problematic:
And most surely it is a knowledge of the hour, therefore have no doubt about it and follow me: this is the right path. (Surah 43:61)
This specific verse talking of the knowledge of the hour is not a standardized version since Muslim scholars have not reached a consensus on the gender of the personal pronoun occurring in this verse yet. This is why in another Qur’an version (Yusuf Ali’s translation) we read Jesus’ name inserted into the translation in brackets:
And (Jesus) shall be a Sign (for the coming of) the Hour (of Judgment): therefore have no doubt about the (Hour), but follow ye Me: this is a Straight Way. (Surah 43:61)
Interestingly, another Qur’an version (Pickthall’s translation) omits the personal pronoun from this sentence:
And lo! verily there is knowledge of the Hour. So doubt ye not concerning it, but follow Me. This is the right path. (Surah 43:61)
It is not reasonable to claim that the personal pronoun in 43:61 refers to Jesus as the sign of the Hour because this chapter was written prior to Mohammad’s adoption of the Gnostic heresy denying Jesus’ crucifixion and death. The Islamic teaching that Jesus escaped death through divine intervention was an innovation unknown in the early (Meccan) period of the Qur’an. What Muslims today do is reinterpret an obscure verse of an earlier period of the Qur’an in the light of another obscure verse of a later period with the help of Hadiths reiterating the Christian tenets about Jesus’ second coming. Muslim commentators can claim only now (after the completion of the whole Qur’an) that the referent in Surah 43 points at Jesus. Nevertheless, such an interpretation would be unthinkable in the early days of the Qur’an when Muslims were not familiar with the Islamic doctrine that Jesus had been taken to Heaven. Nothing in the Meccan period of the Qur’an enabled Muslims to infer that Jesus was somehow in Heaven.
If we get back to the unstated and vague reasons underlying the necessity of Jesus’ salvation from the cross and the related denial of His crucifixion, we first encounter a group of Muslims who cannot endure the idea that almighty and righteous God would allow some evil unbelievers torture and murder one of His honorable prophets8. This kind of an objection to Jesus’ passion and death primarily became so dominant and popular in the Islamic world that even a Christian saint writing a critique of the basic Islamic tenets remarked that Muslims’ faith in God’s love towards Jesus was the main obstacle in the way to their endorsement of the passion and crucifixion9. The claim that God loved Jesus so much that He did not allow Him to suffer and die is a distorted version of the Christian doctrine that Jesus’ suffering and death expressed God’s love for sinful mankind10. Although the Islamic theory that the admittance of Jesus’ passion and death betrays God’s love for Him is not explicitly supported by the Qur’an, it manages to provide a nice theological reason for the denial of the crucifixion. However, it is not possible to say that this theological reason perfectly fits the case of many prophets and messengers of the Qur’an.
Unlike the New Testament, the Islamic scripture disregards the notion of consistency when the rescue of certain prophets is in question. The parable named the tenants of the vineyard11, which is found in the Synoptic Gospels with slight variations, does not only illustrate that God’s elected nation persecuted and murdered God’s messengers, but also that the Son of God in human flesh was not exempt from a murderous act. Nothing could it make clearer than this parable that Jesus’ passion and death was the culmination of Israel’s unfair reaction to and disbelief in God’s chosen servants. The Qur’an, on the other hand, contains inconsistent statements about the supposed rescue of all prophets or messengers since it both sanctifies the concept of martyrdom and promotes the supposition that certain messengers were miraculously saved from the hands of their unbelieving enemies. Jesus is unsurprisingly forced into the specific group of prophets that were saved from the harms of their adversaries.
First, there are certain Qur’an verses that extol the martyrdom of believers to the point of proclaiming them immortal in God’s sight. This partly proves that Islam does not object to the idea of associating suffering and sorrow with God’s holy and righteous servants:
And do not speak of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead; nay, (they are) alive, but you do not
perceive. (Surah 2:154)And reckon not those who are killed in Allah's way as dead; nay, they are alive (and) are provided sustenance from their Lord. (Surah 3:169)
Jesus in Islam, however, is more than a righteous and pious servant of God. He is both a messenger and a prophet who is allegedly given a divine scripture named the Good News. According to some implicit verses of the Qur’an, what justifies Jesus’ divine rescue from His enemies is His prophetic ministry. At this point, the story of Abraham’s miraculous salvage from the hands of his idolatrous enemies12 may be introduced as an example to support the argument that Jesus’ alleged salvation from the cross was not an exceptional case.
The comparative analysis of Abraham and Jesus’ supposed rescues reveals how erroneous it is to assume that the denial of Jesus’ crucifixion is compatible with the stories of the former prophets. This sort of a comparison highlights that both the means and results of Abraham’s alleged rescue from his enemies are in sharp contrast to those of Jesus’ supposed salvation from disbelieving Jews. In the first place the narratives relating Abraham’s life in the Qur’an lay emphasis on the assertion that Abraham’s enemies became aware of their defeat because they could see and understand how God supposedly saved His prophet from the fire of his pagan adversaries13. The verse denying Jesus’ crucifixion and claiming His divine rescue in the Qur’an contrastively affiliate the miracle saving Jesus from the evil plots of his enemies with an optical illusion. This, in turn, entails the allegation that it was impossible for the Jews who tried to slay Jesus to be aware of their failure and defeat. In other words, the invisible miracle in Jesus’ life bafflingly prevented Jesus’ adversaries from both murdering Him and knowing that they did not actually murder Him! This was such a paradoxical operation of divine rescue that the true miracle turned out to be the concealment of the very miracle14.
Second, the repeated accounts of Abraham’s supposed salvation from the fire of his pagan folk through a miracle do not refer to the end of Abraham’s prophetic ministry unlike the verses that attach Jesus’ ascension to His alleged salvation from death. Thus, Jesus is claimed to have left this world despite His rescue from the hands of His adversaries whereas Abraham is claimed to have continued his life and prophetic mission through a miracle. In short, Jesus’ story in the Qur’an lacks the notion of survival. As it is impossible for the disbelieving Jews to know that Jesus had not been crucified, it is also impossible for Jesus to continue His prophetic ministry in Israel. Jesus’ survival in the sense of a continuation of his ministry is mysteriously made impossible by those who want to kill Him, which means that the Jews who wanted to shut him up have actually reached their goal.
It should be stressed that in the Qur’an Abraham is the only holy figure whose supposed rescue from danger through a miracle is recorded in details if the Israelites’ salvation from Pharaoh’s army in Moses’ leadership is distinguished as a miraculous incident aiming to save not only a messenger but also his entire nation. At this point, Abraham and Moses’ stories make a more plausible pair, for both figures are threatened by pagan folks that oppose the idea of monotheism. Nonetheless, Jesus’ case in the Qur’an is rather different in that He is an Israelite who is sent by God as a prophet to His own nation, and the Israelites at His time are followers of a monotheistic faith. Accordingly, Jesus’ prophetic ministry must be examined in the same category as the other Israelite messengers and prophets so that a sound comparison can be worked out.
Strikingly, the Qur’an recurrently denounces Jews for opposing God’s message and murdering His messengers. In various chapters of the Qur’an, even more than once in a single chapter, the Jews are marked as a rebellious community persecuting and murdering God’s chosen servants:
And abasement and humiliation were brought down upon them, and they became deserving of Allah's wrath; this was so because they disbelieved in the communications of Allah and killed the prophets unjustly; this was so because they disobeyed and exceeded the limits. (Surah 2:61)
What! whenever then an apostle came to you with that which your souls did not desire, you were insolent so you called some liars and some you slew. (Surah 2:87)
And when it is said to them, Believe in what Allah has revealed, they say: We believe in that which was revealed to us; and they deny what is besides that, while it is the truth verifying that which they have. Say: Why then did you kill Allah's Prophets before if you were indeed believers? (Surah 2:91)
Surely (as for) those who disbelieve in the communications of Allah and slay the prophets unjustly and slay those among men who enjoin justice, announce to them a painful chastisement. (Surah 3:21)
Abasement is made to cleave to them wherever they are found, except under a covenant with Allah and a covenant with men, and they have become deserving of wrath from Allah, and humiliation is made to cleave to them; this is because they disbelieved in the communications of Allah and slew the prophets unjustly; this is because they disobeyed and exceeded the limits. (Surah 3:112)
Allah has certainly heard the saying of those who said: Surely Allah is poor and we are rich. I will record what they say, and their killing the prophets unjustly, and I will say: Taste the chastisement of burning. (Surah 3:181)
(Those are they) who said: Surely Allah has enjoined us that we should not believe in any apostle until he brings us an offering which the fire consumes. Say: Indeed, there came to you apostles before me with clear arguments and with that which you demand; why then did you kill them if you are truthful? (Surah 3:183)
Therefore, for their breaking their covenant and their disbelief in the communications of Allah and their killing the prophets wrongfully and their saying: Our hearts are covered; nay! Allah set a seal upon them owing to their unbelief, so they shall not believe except a few. (Surah 4:155)
Certainly We made a covenant with the children of Israel and We sent to them apostles; whenever there came to them an apostle with what that their souls did not desire, some (of them) did they call liars and some they slew. (Surah 5:70)
It is by no means a coincidence that all these verses belong to the late period of the Qur’an’s composition and therefore reflect the religious and political conflicts between Muhammad and the Jews of Arabia after the migration to Medina. The context of these verses points out Muhammad’s scribes’ wish to speed up their anti-Jewish campaign and ascribe various negative characteristics to the followers of Judaism. One of the most effective weapons of this campaign is undoubtedly the presentation of the Jews as murderers of God’s messengers/prophets. The authors of the Qur’an refer to the sinful acts of the elected nation of God in the ecstasy of their anti-Jewish sentiments and fail to understand how their recurrent reference to the murder of God’s prophets makes Jesus’ alleged redemption from the plots of disbelieving Jews odd and unique. Muhammad’s scribes’ desire to accuse the Jews of murdering righteous and holy figures consequently overrides the theological expectation that God’s messengers and prophets be saved from the hands of their disbelieving enemies, and this makes Jesus’ divine rescue inconsistent and exceptional.
To play the devil’s advocate, it may be suggested that what necessitates Jesus’ rescue from His enemies is the type of death Jesus is said to have experienced. Most of the statements in the New Testament sound scandalous to Muslim believers because of the basic Christian tenet seeing in Jesus’ passion and dea
th the atonement of the mankind’s sins. All of the four Gospels recount with much emphasis how Jesus was persecuted and murdered by His adversaries15. The accounts of Jesus’ passion highlight His mockery and torment even prior to His crucifixion, indicating the different methods of humiliation (mockery, insult, scourging) conducted by the opposing groups. This rather embarrassing image of a fully humiliated, dishonored, and abandoned prophet may be presented as a plausible reason for Jesus’ unique case of rescue from the hands of His enemies. God exceptionally intervenes in Jesus’ life because He does not want the disbelieving people to think that Jesus was a false prophet unsaved by the true God. This reasoning is related to the approval of Jesus’ prophetic ministry, expecting God to save Jesus from His enemies so that the Jewish allegations concerning the veracity of Jesus’ teachings can be rebutted16. In short, the prevention of Jesus’ humiliation is said to be crucial for the deletion of the image of a false prophet drawn by the Jews for Jesus.No matter how reasonable and theologically valid this argument may seem, it too is condemned to a paradox if the Islamic theory of substitution17, the oldest and traditionally prevalent theory, is remembered. The adherents of this theory contend that the Qur’an verse implicitly refers to an optical illusion through the sentence “so it appeared to them”. The disbelieving Jews are asserted to have arrested, tortured, and murdered someone else in Jesus’ stead while the true Jesus is saved from harm and taken up into Heaven. The improved and detailed version of this theory gives us even the identity of the person who was mistakenly crucified instead of Jesus.
In the Gospel of Barnabas, which is a false medieval Gospel written by an author who knew more about the Bible than about the Qur’an, Judas Iscariot is miraculously transformed into Jesus’ image in return for his disbelief and betrayal. This supposed physical and vocal transformation is said to be so successful and convincing that even Jesus’ apostles are claimed to have mistaken Judas Iscariot for Jesus:
Truly I say that the voice, the face, and the person of Judas were so like to Jesus, that his disciples and believers entirely believed that he was Jesus; wherefore some departed from the doctrine of Jesus, believing that Jesus had been a false prophet, and that by art magic he had done the miracles which he did: for Jesus had said that he should not die till near the end of the world; for that at that time he should be taken away from the world. (Gospel of Barnabas 217:14)18
The author of the Gospel of Barnabas does not know that this so-called transformation God allegedly performs to punish Judas Iscariot and the other Jewish leaders (Jesus’ adversaries) fails to efface Jesus’ image of a humiliated and defeated false prophet. The author of the Gospel of Barnabas and some Muslim commentators who endorse the theory of illusion and substitution cannot understand that through the supposed miraculous transformation God Himself compels Jesus’ enemies to see and be convinced that Jesus is truly a humiliated and defeated prophet when He makes Jesus identical with a criminal and sinner (Judas Iscariot) in the eyes of the disbelieving Jews! This is why in the Gospel of Barnabas the Roman soldiers and Jewish leaders think that they mock and dishonor Jesus, for whatever Judas Iscariot does is automatically ascribed to true Jesus due to the success of the divine miracle:
The soldiers took Judas and bound him, not without derision. For he truthfully denied that he was Jesus; and the soldiers, mocking him, said: 'Sir, fear not, for we are come to make you king of Israel, and we have bound you because we know that you do refuse the kingdom.' Judas answered: 'Now have you lost your senses! You are come to take Jesus of Nazareth, with arms and lanterns as [against] a robber; and you have bound me that have guided you, to make me king!' (217:1)
If the only thing that matters about Jesus’ crucifixion is what Jews think about Jesus and how they see Him, then Jesus cannot be saved by God from persecution and death in the sight of His disbelieving adversaries, who are made to believe with the help of a miracle (!) that who is arrested and crucified is no one else than Jesus of Nazareth! Here we encounter a baffling image of a god who makes His holy prophet equal to a murdered traitor because He wants to save the same holy prophet from a humiliating death and the image of a killed sinner! This ridiculous argument enables us to comprehend that someone else’s supposed substitution for Jesus reflects God’s alleged desire to deceive the disbelieving Jews of Jesus’ time and punish a traitor rather than help His holy prophet maintain His honor and glory through the prevention of His crucifixion and death. Should we consider the theory of substitution true, we have to admit that the god of the Qur’an is not concerned with Jesus’ honor and glory because the way he chooses to punish the unbelievers and sinners is inevitably bound to Jesus’ humiliation and defamation. This also illustrates how the god of the Qur’an makes Jesus (through the abuse of His face and voice) a sacrifice to his aspiration to beguile the Jews.
The other Islamic supposition that one of Jesus’ apostles volunteered to assume His image and endure the crucifixion for the sake of a place in Heaven only adds a piece of heroism into Jesus’ story, but falls short of dissociating Jesus from the image of a defamed and murdered prophet of God since the unbelieving Jews still see and believe with no doubt that the person crucified as a criminal is Jesus. Further, the allegation that one of Jesus’ apostles was substituted for Him betrays the notion of justice since it teaches that a righteous believer had to die for Jesus although the supposed illusion made that innocent death meaningless and useless.
Since the tenets of the Ahmadiyya19 denies the crucifixion only partly and claims that what saved Jesus from death on the cross was His passing out rather than a miracle of replacement, it is not possible to say that this modern Islamic approach to Jesus’ crucifixion has anything to do with the notions of divine justice or the punishment of the disbelievers. Nonetheless, this innovated theory accepts from the start that Jesus actually suffered a in the hands of His adversaries, enduring torture and humiliation. The admittance of this fact entails that the god of the Qur’an failed to rescue Jesus from physical pain and the accusations of being a sinner/criminal. No matter how much aversion this Islamic sect has to the notion of a holy prophet’s experiencing a cursed death, its assertions lead one to the conclusion that the Jews were convinced of Jesus’ cursed death since they declared Him dead.
Finally, another Islamic theory that strives to explain the historical reality of Jesus’ crucifixion and death through the alleged invention of a story needs special examination, for it goes against the other Islamic theories that are essentially bound to the admittance of the crucifixion as a real tragic incident befalling someone else than Jesus. According to this theory of the invention of a legend, which is nothing more than a legend invented by Muhammad Asad, Jesus’ crucifixion is a fabricated story that Christians embraced long after Jesus’ prophetic ministry and even the Jews acknowledged to present Jesus as a murdered criminal20. Asad’s view is problematic not only because it ignores the fact that the Qur’an verse does not accuse Jesus’ adversaries of acknowledging a lie and contributing to its dissemination, but also because it denies that in the same verse only the disbelieving Jews are claimed to be the people giving credence to an appearance (so it appeared to THEM). Further, Asad’s theory, which owes its existence to the supposed invention of a legend concerning only Jesus’ crucifixion, serves to declare indulgen
ce for the Jews through the mitigation of their guilt. This, however, is not compatible with the several verses of the Qur’an that identify the Jews as murderers of Allah’s prophets (Surah 2:61, Surah 5:70, etc) as well as with the specific verses that bind the Jews’ plot to kill Jesus to their disbelief:But when Isa perceived unbelief on their part, he said Who will be my helpers in Allah's way? The disciples said: We are helpers (in the way) of Allah: We believe in Allah and bear witness that we are submitting ones. Our Lord! we believe in what Thou hast revealed and we follow the apostle, so write us down with those who bear witness. And they planned and Allah (also) planned, and Allah is the best of planners. (Surah 3:52-54)
If Jesus’ passion is an illusion in the sense that it is a fabrication, it is not reasonable to talk of Jesus’ rescue from His enemies as it is not reasonable to claim that the Jews attempted to murder Jesus. Muhammad Asad’s argument encourages one to consider the possibility that even the Jewish attempt to kill Jesus was an indispensable part of the invented legend. Allah presumably denied the crucifixion not because the Jews really tried to crucify His Messiah, but because he mistook a legend for a true historical incident! It is high time Asad answered the questions why and how Jesus was rescued from His disbelieving enemies and how the disbelieving Jews tried to murder Him.
In addition, Asad’s theory would definitely not get the appraisal of the Jews no matter how it makes diligent efforts to save them from being the victims of an illusion. This is because the same theory, as a matter of paradox, would offend the Jews through the allegation that they became eager to comply with Christians in the authorization of this supposed legend despite the risk of authorizing the purely Christian tenet of salvation through Jesus’ sacrificial death.
Even the admittance of Asad’s theory cannot save Jesus from being a persecuted and murdered criminal in the sight of His adversaries because it proves that the allegedly invented story was successful to the point of fooling everyone until the appearance of this verse in the Islamic scripture. Apparently, the only benefit Asad’s view aims to grant Islam is the salvation of the god of the Qur’an from being a beguiling deity. Once more Jesus’ honor and glory are disregarded so that the god of the Qur’an can be indicted.
CONCLUSION
Since the Qur’an denies Jesus’ passion and death with no overt theological reason and fails to provide adequate information on this issue, Muslim commentators feel themselves obliged to derive new solutions to the problematic verse of the Qur’an, running the risk of having conflictive theories. They constantly try to work out new solutions to the remarkable problem of their scripture with regard to Jesus’ death only because they know the bitter truth that their scripture is both theologically and linguistically incompetent in terms of distorting the basic Christian tenet of salvation through the cross.
One wonders why the Qur’an cannot remove the cross out of Jesus’ life altogether and claim that Jesus was never associated with the cross during His prophetic ministry. The authors of the Qur’an astonishingly make the crucifixion an indispensable part of Jesus’ life and mission through their denial of the event by clinging to a theory of illusion. All the Islamic theories that try to negate Jesus’ crucifixion and death eventually converge in the assertion that Jesus had to APPEAR to have been suffered and murdered by people who opposed His teachings and hated Him. The god of the Qur’an surprisingly needs an illusion to deny Jesus’ death on the cross, being unable to wipe the cross off the historical and secular accounts concerning Jesus.
What actually drove the authors of the Qur’an to explain the image of a crucified Messiah with the help of an illusion or appearance was their familiarity with the fact that the historical reality of Jesus’ passion cannot be ignored. Since the testimonies of both Jewish and non-Jewish eyewitnesses made the removal and deletion of the cross from Jesus’ life improbable, the removal of Jesus from the scene of crucifixion was tried as a remedy. This cunning strategy resulted in the depiction of the god of the Qur’an as a deceptive and unreliable deity that concealed the truth about Jesus until Muhammad’s advent. Consequently, the Messiah of the Qur’an was condemned by Muhammad to death only in appearance for the punishment of His adversaries unlike the true Messiah of the New Testament, who died in reality for the salvation of sinful mankind. The New Testament proclaims the crucified Messiah and saved humanity whereas the Qur’an promotes the saved Messiah and punished humanity.
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