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Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 23 2014,00:44) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 22 2014,11:50) The words “spiritual wickedness” are not evidence of of either angels or devils having spiritual bodies. Now you are addressing the words “flesh and blood” which are known to an idiom for mortal.
The idiom “flesh and blood” is also used for HUMAN BEINGS, right?So if you can't see that Paul was saying our struggle is not against HUMAN BEINGS, but against SPIRIT BEINGS, then perhaps your own imagined “spiritual flesh doctrine” is getting in your way.
Mike,I don't even necessary think the passage is speaking of devils though it could be. Devils after all tempt us and our battle is against temptation and not against humans of this age. The words powers and authorities hint or more than hint at devils while the spiritual wickedness is a very good description of the desires of the flesh.
How do propose that the people of that time or even this fight against those of the world to come? Why would those who claim to be Christians even try?
Mike,
Yes, flesh and blood can also symbolize those of human decent which will fit the context of Ephesians 6:12 but not of 1 Corinthians 15:50.
Mike,
Quote 1. “Masters according to the flesh” refers to HUMAN masters – which are contrasted against our Lord Jesus, who is NOT a “human master”. You have that one wrong as Jesus rules the spirit by the Spirit. Flesh is being used as a synonym of body.
I think it is used much the same way in the saying “the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak”. The disciples in question were willing to stay awake but their flesh was not up to the task and so they failed to obey Jesus' instruction to stay awake and keep watch.
Mike,
Quote 2. Verse 7 once again contrasts “the Lord” against “human beings”. Why do you believe “the Lord” is not Jehovah who we both believe is not a human being?
Mike,
Quote 3. Verse 11 tells us our battle is against “the devil” – who is NOT a human being. Not quite correct. Our battles is against Satan's schemes of which temptation is one. He has multiple schemes but the short term purpose of them is to make it more opportune to tempt a human, humans, or humanity. I would say that would lead to the ideal that v 12 is speaking about those schemes but it may be speaking of those creatures that carry out those schemes. The difficulty with the later is that human beings are numbered among Satan's agents.
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 22 2014,13:41) The words powers and authorities hint or more than hint at devils while the spiritual wickedness is a very good description of the desires of the flesh.
So even though the words “more than hint at devils”, you will cause yourself to believe that the passage ISN'T speaking of devils?
And how in the world does “spiritual wickedness” describe a FLESHLY desire?
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 22 2014,13:41) How do propose that the people of that time or even this fight against those of the world to come? Why would those who claim to be Christians even try?
What? Who said anything about fighting against “those of the world to come”?Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 22 2014,13:52) Mike, Yes, flesh and blood can also symbolize those of human decent which will fit the context of Ephesians 6:12 but not of 1 Corinthians 15:50.
It fits 1 Cor 15 EXACTLY, Kerwin.Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 22 2014,14:13) Mike, Quote 1. “Masters according to the flesh” refers to HUMAN masters – which are contrasted against our Lord Jesus, who is NOT a “human master”. You have that one wrong as Jesus rules the spirit by the Spirit. Flesh is being used as a synonym of body.
I think it is used much the same way in the saying “the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak”. The disciples in question were willing to stay awake but their flesh was not up to the task and so they failed to obey Jesus' instruction to stay awake and keep watch.
Now you aren't even disagreeing with the things I said. You are posting a bunch of words, and saying I got it wrong, but you're not even disagreeing with me.YES Kerwin, “flesh” is often an ANTONYM of “spirit” in the scriptures.
So if there are FLESH masters we have to obey, there is also a SPIRIT master we obey. That SPIRIT master is Jesus Christ.
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 22 2014,14:20) Mike, Quote 2. Verse 7 once again contrasts “the Lord” against “human beings”. Why do you believe “the Lord” is not Jehovah who we both believe is not a human being?
Verse 5 calls that Lord “Christ”.Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 22 2014,14:30) Mike, Quote 3. Verse 11 tells us our battle is against “the devil” – who is NOT a human being. Not quite correct. Our battles is against Satan's schemes of which temptation is one. He has multiple schemes but the short term purpose of them is to make it more opportune to tempt a human, humans, or humanity. I would say that would lead to the ideal that v 12 is speaking about those schemes but it may be speaking of those creatures that carry out those schemes. The difficulty with the later is that human beings are numbered among Satan's agents.
No, we are to take a stand against Satan's schemes. Why? Because our battle is NOT against humans, but the spiritual forces of darkness – the leader of whom is Satan.Kerwin, you are trying your best to play word games once again. This is a clear sign that you are lost, and have lost.
Our battle is against “the RULERS, AUTHORITIES, and POWERS of this dark world” who are NOT flesh and blood.
WHO would those rulers be, Kerwin?
Our battle is against “the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms”. WHO would those forces be?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 24 2014,00:02) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 22 2014,13:52) Mike, Yes, flesh and blood can also symbolize those of human decent which will fit the context of Ephesians 6:12 but not of 1 Corinthians 15:50.
It fits 1 Cor 15 EXACTLY, Kerwin.
Mick,So according to you humans cannot inherit the kingdom of God.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 24 2014,00:02) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 22 2014,13:41) The words powers and authorities hint or more than hint at devils while the spiritual wickedness is a very good description of the desires of the flesh.
{1} So even though the words “more than hint at devils”, you will cause yourself to believe that the passage ISN'T speaking of devils?{2} And how in the world does “spiritual wickedness” describe a FLESHLY desire?
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 22 2014,13:41) How do propose that the people of that time or even this fight against those of the world to come? Why would those who claim to be Christians even try?
{3} What? Who said anything about fighting against “those of the world to come”?
Mike,I took the liberty of numbering your points for convenience.
1) I have not settled on a stance though fighting temptation is at least part of the battle.
2) I actually made an error as I went by only what I remembered and when I actually read it, its speaks of spiritual wickedness in heavenly places. The words “heavenly places” are used only in Ephesians and I am not sure they should be taken literally though I have in the past. I doubt it is speaking of the wickedness of demons as the first part may cover demons themselves and I am uneasy with the idea of demons in heavenly places.
3) My point being that Ephesians is only speaking of mortal humans.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 24 2014,00:05) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 22 2014,14:13) Mike, Quote 1. “Masters according to the flesh” refers to HUMAN masters – which are contrasted against our Lord Jesus, who is NOT a “human master”. You have that one wrong as Jesus rules the spirit by the Spirit. Flesh is being used as a synonym of body.
I think it is used much the same way in the saying “the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak”. The disciples in question were willing to stay awake but their flesh was not up to the task and so they failed to obey Jesus' instruction to stay awake and keep watch.
Now you aren't even disagreeing with the things I said. You are posting a bunch of words, and saying I got it wrong, but you're not even disagreeing with me.YES Kerwin, “flesh” is often an ANTONYM of “spirit” in the scriptures.
So if there are FLESH masters we have to obey, there is also a SPIRIT master we obey. That SPIRIT master is Jesus Christ.
Mike,Perhaps the idea is harder for me to communicate to some than I thought because you are not understanding what I said.
There is a quote that goes something like “you can control my body but not my mind”. I believe you understand that quote. The slave masters control their slaves bodies but not their spirits. Jesus is Lord of the spirits of his people.
Conflicts do happen and anyone who takes Paul's words as an excuse to do evil is misusing Scripture.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 24 2014,00:07) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 22 2014,14:20) Mike, Quote 2. Verse 7 once again contrasts “the Lord” against “human beings”. Why do you believe “the Lord” is not Jehovah who we both believe is not a human being?
Verse 5 calls that Lord “Christ”.
Mike,Not is the AV of the KJV but perhaps in other versions. The only title is addressed to in both 5 and 6 is Christ. “Doing the will of God” is mentioned in verse 6 and verse 7 speaking of “doing service, as to the Lord”.
Though I think it is more likely the Lord is God in this context it does not matter as Jesus does not do anything on his own but he only does as he see God doing, John 5:17. In short if you do the works of Jesus you are still not doing the works of man since his works have never been the works of man, even as he lived his mortality.
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 24 2014,11:20) So according to you humans cannot inherit the kingdom of God.
Correct, Kerwin. Flesh and blood human beings cannot inherit the HEAVENLY kingdom of God – the kingdom Paul was talking about when he said those words.Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 24 2014,11:33) 1) I have not settled on a stance though fighting temptation is at least part of the battle. 2) I actually made an error as I went by only what I remembered and when I actually read it, its speaks of spiritual wickedness in heavenly places. The words “heavenly places” are used only in Ephesians and I am not sure they should be taken literally though I have in the past. I doubt it is speaking of the wickedness of demons as the first part may cover demons themselves and I am uneasy with the idea of demons in heavenly places.
3) My point being that Ephesians is only speaking of mortal humans.
Kerwin,There is no use in discussing point #1, since you don't know what it is you believe.
As for points #2 and #3, I would like to see DIRECT ANSWERS to the questions I asked. I will reword them:
2. Can we use the phrase “spiritual wickedness” to describe our fleshly desires? Do you really believe the context of Eph 6:12, as a whole, speaks about us fighting against our own “fleshly desires”? Remember that it starts off saying that our struggle is NOT against flesh and blood, right?
3. I want to know where you got the idea that anyone was saying anything about us fighting against “those of the world to come”.
How does the answer you gave me answer that question?
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 24 2014,11:43) There is a quote that goes something like “you can control my body but not my mind”. The slave masters control their slaves bodies but not their spirits. Jesus is Lord of the spirits of his people.
Ephesians 6:5
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ.Colossians 3:22
Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to curry their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord.These scriptures don't sound like Paul was telling them that the human masters only controlled their bodies, Kerwin.
Colossians 3:18 doesn't tell wives to submit only their bodies to their husbands.
3:19 doesn't tell husbands to love their wives with only their bodies.
3:20 doesn't tell children to obey their parents with only their bodies.
And 3:23-24 tells us to obey the human masters with our whole heart like we would obey Christ………. BECAUSE by serving those human masters, it is really Christ we are serving.
And Ephesians 7 teaches us to serve wholeheartedly, as if we were serving the Lord, not people.
So unless you think we should serve the Lord with ONLY our bodies, then you've missed the mark on this one, Kerwin.
I suppose this is just one of those many times that you have to try any other option you can find, because you don't personally LIKE the most obvious and logical option.
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 24 2014,12:01) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 24 2014,00:07) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 22 2014,14:20) Mike, Quote 2. Verse 7 once again contrasts “the Lord” against “human beings”. Why do you believe “the Lord” is not Jehovah who we both believe is not a human being?
Verse 5 calls that Lord “Christ”.
Mike,Not in the AV of the KJV but perhaps in other versions.
I believe “Christ” is mentioned in verse 5 in the KJV – as well as in every other translation, Kerwin. Some versions have “Messiah” instead of “Christ”.Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 24 2014,12:01) The only title is addressed to in both 5 and 6 is Christ. “Doing the will of God” is mentioned in verse 6 and verse 7 speaking of “doing service, as to the Lord”. Though I think it is more likely the Lord is God in this context………..
If you compare Colossians 3:18-25 with Ephesians 6:1-8, you'll find it is a very similar teaching. “Christ” is mentioned as the “Lord” in question towards the middle of the Ephesians teaching, and listed by name towards the end part of the Colossians teaching.If you compare both teachings side by side, you'll most likely agree that the “Lord” being spoken of in both teachings is Jesus Christ.
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 24 2014,12:01) ……it does not matter as Jesus does not do anything on his own but he only does as he see God doing, John 5:17. In short if you do the works of Jesus you are still not doing the works of man since his works have never been the works of man, even as he lived his mortality.
That's all fine and dandy, Kerwin……. but don't forget that the teachings also clearly distinguish between our “masters according to the flesh”, and our Master Jesus Christ.Once again, I know you are trying everything in your power to avoid the logical and obvious conclusion that our Lord Jesus Christ is something OTHER THAN “flesh”.
So far, you have opined that the “Lord” in question is Jehovah, and in that case, you agree with me that there is a distinction being made between “flesh master” and “spirit master”.
But, just in case that one doesn't pan out, you have armed yourself with the backup scenario that Paul was talking about a difference between “doing the WORKS of a man”, and “doing the WORKS of the spirit”.
You, as usual, are trying your best to cover all bases. But are you really helping yourself out here, Kerwin? Is it really leading you closer to the truth of the scriptures when you go way out of your way to find ANYTHING you can to AVOID understanding the teaching in the most OBVIOUS and most LOGICAL way it could be understood?
Just one time, I wish you would look at yourself in the mirror, and say these words: The way it is written in the English translation is OBVIOUSLY the most LOGICAL thing those Greek words could mean….. so WHY do I feel the need to find ANY OTHER thing it could mean?
Am I perhaps trying my best to FORCE the scriptures to stop teaching what I don't personally WANT them to teach?
Or is my new abstract way, that no scholar ever thought of in the history of mankind – the way that doesn't even really make a lot of sense to ME – the best way the words can be understood in that particular context?
I think that if you were truly honest with yourself, the first answer would be the honest one 99% of the time.
What if your first opinion was right – that Paul WAS making a distinction between our “flesh masters” and our “spirit Master” – but the “spirit Master” was indeed Christ? What then, Kerwin?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 28 2014,07:38) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 24 2014,11:20) So according to you humans cannot inherit the kingdom of God.
Correct, Kerwin. Flesh and blood human beings cannot inherit the HEAVENLY kingdom of God – the kingdom Paul was talking about when he said those words.
Mike,I understand that you believe that God created human being in vain.
Of course you have no evidence that only being composed of Spirit can enter the kingdom of heaven not that there is spirit body. Those teachings come from Gnostism and Scripture interpreted or translated in a way that does not even agree with the Koine Greek Language.
On the other hand you are well aware that flesh and blood means “weak mortals” but prefer interpret that saying as human beings. There is no real support for your choice. On the hand you know that Jesus was raised in a flesh and bone body.
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