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TO All………..I started this to try to get us all to come to a better understand of the expression Antichrist and what was the reason John coined that Phrase in the first place, what was going on at that time in Church history for him to express this to the Church.
First we have to try to understand what was taking place at that point of time. The church was being bomb bared with all kinds of new teachings and doctrines from Groups who were in the church and adapted their our form of teachings and tried to convience others of their teachings, One large such group were the GNOSTIC'S, and they were having a great effect on the Church , They were in the past Pagans and there Psychological make up included GREEK and ROMAN PAGAN thoughts, some belied in Man/God beings ,and God taking humans as mates. These Gods had great powers and strengths. Gods taking the form of Humans in disguise but were really Gods sent from the Pelora of Gods, to straighten out this corrupt world and control it. They taught that Jesus was sent from the Pelora of the Gods to this earth and that he only appeared as a Man but was in fact a GOD in disguise.
John said they went out from them but were really not of them. They were infecting the church with their false teachings. They were having an effect on the Churches which John and Paul were over, it was a hug problem and causing devisions in the church.
These concepts or LIES about Jesus being a GOD instead of a human being was a very big thing to John and Paul. It Presented two things that altered our concept of Jesus.
1…….It altered and changes our perceptions of Him being an ordinary human being and this changed how we related with him, in our hearts and minds, they could no longer see Jesus as a simply Human being any longer, but as a Human who was (DIFFERENT THEN US, they could no longer say, we CAN Be EXACTLY (LIKE) Jesus because He was (EXACTLY) like us, No they MOVE him away from their IDENTITY, making Him something different then we are . Their Goal then was not to be (exactly) LIKE Jesus is, but just adore him worship him as a GOD or demigod or super Angel, whose status we could never attain to. Even though scripture say we can “come to the full measure of the stature of Christ”. So a division was form by these false teachings between Jesus and Us , his brothers and sisters. The Gnostic's moved him to the God status of existence, and us away to the human edge of existence a rift had been made by these false teachings. This (SEPARATIST) view point was Blasphemous to Paul and John. This teaching worked to destory the relationship between Jesus and the rest of Mankind and Mankind's relationship with GOD the Father also.
2..> The second thing this false teaching did was to separate Jesus' time of Berth (INTO EXISTENCE) , from being like ours, to giving him Preexistence status which further (SEPARATED) HIM From MANKIND.
These two thing, the GOD Status and Preexistence Status, change the mindset of Christians who were seeking God through the teaching of the apostles and Jesus, it was causing a rift in the TRUE Church of GOD, and was denounced by John and Paul Both, it was effecting the Thessalonian particularly, therefore Paul wrote His 2Ths 2 to them to not buy into this LIE about Jesus siting in the temple and being displayed as a GOD. “THE LIE” Which God would cause those who did not have a love for truth to believe, in which He said Jesus would destory at his return, that statement alone tells us “THE LIE” would continue to exist till he returns. It still Exists as the Doctrine of the TRINITY, This teaching changes our conception of who and what Jesus was and is, it is this teaching of (SEPARATION) which John called the (SPIRIT (intellect) OF ANTICHRIST). IMO
peace and love to you all……………………..gene
To all………….I made some spelling errors but hopefully have corrected them all sorry, my eyes are not the best anymore.
peace and love to you all……………………………….gene
Irene
Gene wrote:
Quote Irene………What i said is the belief of Preexistences, is the SPIRIT of ANTICHRIST and if the shoe fit wear it. Do you believe Jesus came into “EXISTENCE AS A HUMAN BEING” no you do not believe he did COME INTO (EXISTENCE) AS A HUMAN BEING, YOU BELIEVE HE ALREADY EXISTED, AS A DEMIGOD OR ANGEL OR WHAT EVER, but you do not believe he came into (EXISTENCE) by his berth on earth through Mary , you believe he was Morphed or (INCARNATED) into existence from another(EXISTING LIFE). Lets try to be honest here for a change if you can be. IMO
gene
The key point of what Gene wrote here is “What i said is the belief of Preexistences, is the SPIRIT of ANTICHRIST and if the shoe fit wear it.”
He is actrually addressing your tenet that Jesus preexisted his miraculous conception and not you beyond the fact you hold to it. Any doctrine that disagrees with the true doctrine of Christ is by definition a spirit of a anti-Christ.
He at most is calling you a follower of a anti christian doctrine, which is just a way of saying a false doctrine. You most likely think the same thing as him.
In my opinion Gene should at least quote the scriptures he is mainly addressing so that his readers understand what he is addressing. He disagrees with me on that at this time.
kerwin look i the preexisting tread again, I got it up for you. That is where Gene calls me Anti_Christ….Irene
Gene,
In the Preexistent thread you wrote to Irene:
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 22 2010,04:54) Irene………..You do not believe Jesus came into existence as a Human being , you believe he was a there as a disguised Past existing being just as the Gnostic's did, the only difference is that you think he was “Morphed” into a human being from a past existence, While they believed he just appeared as a Human being but was really not , but the (BOTTOM LINE) remains the same you both are separatists and both separate Jesus' identity from our identity. No difference at all really, and for this cause i say you both Trinitarians and Preexistences are Antichrists. NO not I but the Apostle John does. IMO peace and love to you and Georg……………………………………..gene
What you now write in your post at the head of this thread is not quite the same since you clearly state that both Trinitarians and Prexistences are AntiChriststs.
You know write that their teachings are from anti Christ. I hope you mispoke and were actually just telling those who believe in such teachings that their teaching are against Christ. We are to love the sinner and hate the sin.
You should consider apologizing to Irene for mispeaking. I believe she understand you are convinced scripture declare the tenet she holds to is is against Christ.
I believe is wisest to assume that we are all students search for the true teachings of Jesus though each of us may be deceived at times.
Gene and Kerwin, it seems I'm interupting a debate of some kind, sorry,
But lately I have realy been thinking about this pre-existance thing.
One thing I always notice is groups and how they form, what goes on, how they act, etc.
One thing I have always kept in my mind in my search for truth is….John 13:35 ” By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
1st Corinthians 13; “Love is patient and is kind; love doesn't envy. Love doesn't brag, is not proud, 5 doesn't behave itself inappropriately, doesn't seek its own way, is not provoked, takes no account of evil; 6 doesn't rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.”
That was the start of my journey in the last week.
I'll keep reading here before I go on with this though…
I'm probably talking in riddles as I do sometimes!
Karamarie,
There is nothing wrong with speaking in mysticisms if you are speaking according to the Spirit of God.
We are speaking of the false teachings which John addresses in his writings.
Here are the scriptures. Gene seems to be using mainly 1 John 4:3 though he may be using the others as well.
Quote 1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2 John 1:7
For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
1 John 2:22
Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1 John 2:18
Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
These scripture as all scriptures all interpreted correctly only through the command of love they neighbor as yourself. That command is taught by the Holy Spirit in its role as councilor.
Note: All scriptures from King James Version of Scriptures.
Quote (kerwin @ April 02 2011,22:14) Karamarie, There is nothing wrong with speaking in mysticisms if you are speaking according to the Spirit of God.
We are speaking of the false teachings which John addresses in his writings.
Here are the scriptures. Gene seems to be using mainly 1 John 4:3 though he may be using the others as well.
Quote 1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2 John 1:7
For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
1 John 2:22
Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1 John 2:18
Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
These scripture as all scriptures all interpreted correctly only through the command of love they neighbor as yourself. That command is taught by the Holy Spirit in its role as councilor.
Note: All scriptures from King James Version of Scriptures.
False teaching according to YOU! What if YOU are wrong, and YOu are assuming that the Scriptures I presented are wrong. Now you made a statement. Prove it!!!!! I can prove by the Scriptures first that Jesus is the firstborn of all creation. Col. 1:15 Secondly that God created all by JesusCol 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Jhn 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jhn 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Jhn 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men
I know that John is very controversial, but consider this Scripture to show that it could not be anotheer being but Jesus
Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
I ask you is there another being that fits that description? If you do please show me!!!!!
The Word of God, God, KING OF KINGS, LORD OF LORDS and presidents are all titles. All involved have other names….
Jesus also was the Firstborn of the death
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.
Col 1:19 ¶ For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell;
He is first in all, so that He may have preeminence….
In John we have more Scriptures about that Jesus preexisted, but to me theses are self expainable, especially Rev. 19…..
Peace IreneIrene………..You said what i said about the Gnostic's was not true. Well show us where it is not true. Again trying to discredit, without proof , I have read and studied their teachings and they (OVERALL) Make Jesus a PREEXISTENCE Being as a GOD sent from the Pelorea of GODS to straighten out this earth. Your continuing discrediting of me and what i and others say is the problem we have here. You are not seriously considering any of what we say are you? I told you plainly i was not putting YOU Personally down nor attacking Your Character, If you believe Jesus PREEXISTED HIS BERTH ON EARTH, SO DID, (THE GNOSTIC'S) AND THE TRINITARIANS DO ALSO , AND (THIS) to (ME) IS WHAT SEPARATES JESUS FROM OUR (EXACT) IDENTITY and to (ME) it is the SPIRIT (intellect) OF ANTICHRIST, that to (ME) was what John was talking about. IMO
peace and love………………………..gene
Quote (kerwin @ April 02 2011,19:27) Gene, In the Preexistent thread you wrote to Irene:
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 22 2010,04:54) Irene………..You do not believe Jesus came into existence as a Human being , you believe he was a there as a disguised Past existing being just as the Gnostic's did, the only difference is that you think he was “Morphed” into a human being from a past existence, While they believed he just appeared as a Human being but was really not , but the (BOTTOM LINE) remains the same you both are separatists and both separate Jesus' identity from our identity. No difference at all really, and for this cause i say you both Trinitarians and Preexistences are Antichrists. NO not I but the Apostle John does. IMO peace and love to you and Georg……………………………………..gene
What you now write in your post at the head of this thread is not quite the same since you clearly state that both Trinitarians and Prexistences are AntiChriststs.
You know write that their teachings are from anti Christ. I hope you mispoke and were actually just telling those who believe in such teachings that their teaching are against Christ. We are to love the sinner and hate the sin.
You should consider apologizing to Irene for mispeaking. I believe she understand you are convinced scripture declare the tenet she holds to is is against Christ.
I believe is wisest to assume that we are all students search for the true teachings of Jesus though each of us may be deceived at times.
Kerwin……..I do not need to apologize to her because she misunderstood what i was saying , if indeed that were the case. If you read what i wrote there in not One lie in it. Irene does believe Jesus preexisted His berth on earth, when i say came into existence i did not mean he was MORPHED into a MAN from another state of existence as SHE believes. I meant He had his (BEGINNING) of EXISTENCE at the time of His BERTH ON EARTH AS A HUMAN BEING, was raised from the DEAD as a HUMAN BEING, and was taken up to the Father as a Human Being and will come to earth again AS A HUMAN BEING.And now she says the Gnostic's did not believe Jesus (PREEXISTED) which is a LIE they most certainly did believe it. Irene works in subtle ways to discredit people and what they say here, (IN MY OPINION).
Wispring Just gave her a explanation of the Subject of Jesus being (CALLED) THE WORD OF GOD. He clearly explained it very clearly so anyone could understand it , but it was just brushed off as if it meant nothing to Her. That kind of thing is what drags down the advancement of understand Here, again (IMO)>
Peace and love to you and your Kerwin…………………….gene
Gene! You said in the above post whch kerwin brought over from the preexusting tread.
Irene………..You do not believe Jesus came into existence as a Human being , you believe he was a there as a disguised Past existing being just as the Gnostic's did, the only difference is that you think he was “Morphed” into a human being from a past existence, While they believed he just appeared as a Human being but was really not , but the (BOTTOM LINE) remains the same you both are separatists and both separate Jesus' identity from our identity. No difference at all really, and for this cause i say you both Trinitarians and Preexistences are Antichrists. NO not I but the Apostle John does. IMO
peace and love to you and Georg……………………………………..gene
This is a direct attack on my Character, you have judged me. I will look up what I said about the Gnostic which I got from the Internet.
Peace Irene
This I had posted i the preexisting tread i copied it here
Posted: April 02 2011,03:31 EDIT QUOTE
Gnostic then and now….taken from the internet. There are several Article on this. I looked for one that explained what they believed what Jesus was to them….here is what they believe….Christ: The role of the redeemer in Gnostic belief is heavily debated at this time. Gnostics seem to have looked upon Christ as a revealer or liberator, rather than a savior or judge. His purpose was to spread knowledge which would free individuals from the Demiurge's control and allow them to return to their spiritual home with the Supreme God at death. Some Gnostic groups promoted Docetism, the belief that Christ was pure spirit and only had a phantom body; Jesus just appeared to be human to his followers. They reasoned that a true emissary from the Supreme God could not have been overcome by the evil of the world, and to have suffered and died. These beliefs were considered heresy by many non-Gnostic Christians. Some Gnostics believed that Christ's resurrection occurred at or before Jesus' death on the cross. They defined his resurrection as occurring when his spirit was liberated from his body. Many Gnostic believed that Jesus had both male and female disciples.
Irene said this
This is far from the belief that we do. We always have said that Jesus was born of Maria. There is no Scripture, that I know of, that says you have to believe that Jesus only became in existing by Maria. But there a Scripture that He was in the form of God. Phil 2Peace Irene
This is what Ant-Christs are
1Jo 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jo 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].
1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
THE SPIRIT THAT CONFESSETH NOt THAT JESUS COME C O M E IN THE FLESH IS NOT OF GOD; and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it shall come; and even now already is it in the world.
I have never denied that Jesus C A M E in the flesh, so you genw=e are wrong……I don't need your apology, I know jesus an His Father very well…it does not say that Jesus has to be first be born, as a man…. .Judging is Gods job…not mine……
Have a nice day…
Peace IreneIrene……> so please tell us if you don't Believe Jesus preexisted as some kind of being as the Gnostic's did. Please tell us Jesus was not sent from GOD from a Preexistence existence then If indeed you truely believe Jesus came in His existence as a Flesh and Blood Human Being. Fact is you believe He was MORPHED into a HUMAN BODY> Also tell us you do not believe Jesus is a SPIRIT BEING “NOW” and that He was resurected as a HUMAN Being. And if you believe he was Morphed Back into a “SPIRIT BEING” please show scripture that say this transformation took place, not some text that you can force the meaning of and draw that conclusion produce the proof that describe this Morphing Process. According to what Jesus said, “He was (NOT) a SPIRIT because a SPIRIT does Not Have flesh and Bone as HE HAD”. Look you can say what ever you want but the (BOTTOM LINE) is ALL TRINITARIANS AND PREEXISTENCES ARE SIMPLY AND EXTENSION OF THE GNOSTIC RELIGION, and that is Jesus preexisting His Berth IN ONE FORM OR ANOTHER. IMO
you also have a nice day….
peace and love………………………………………….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 03 2011,06:02) Irene……> so please tell us if you don't Believe Jesus preexisted as some kind of being as the Gnostic's did. Please tell us Jesus was not sent from GOD from a Preexistence existence then If indeed you truely believe Jesus came in His existence as a Flesh and Blood Human Being. Fact is you believe He was MORPHED into a HUMAN BODY> Also tell us you do not believe Jesus is a SPIRIT BEING “NOW” and that He was resurected as a HUMAN Being. And if you believe he was Morphed Back into a “SPIRIT BEING” please show scripture that say this transformation took place, not some text that you can force the meaning of and draw that conclusion produce the proof that describe this Morphing Process. According to what Jesus said, “He was (NOT) a SPIRIT because a SPIRIT does Not Have flesh and Bone as HE HAD”. Look you can say what ever you want but the (BOTTOM LINE) is ALL TRINITARIANS AND PREEXISTENCES ARE SIMPLY AND EXTENSION OF THE GNOSTIC RELIGION Jesus preexisting His Berth IN ONE FORM OR ANOTHER. IMO you also have a nice day….
peace and love………………………………………….gene
The Spirit of Anti-Christ is if you deny Jesus COMING in the flesh. I do not deny that. Therefore I DO NOT HAVE THE SWPIRIT OF ANTI-CHRIST…….PERIOD. And I do ot want to hear that from you again….Irene
PS Then t8 and Miki are too, which they are not.Gene,
You wrote:
Quote Irene works in subtle ways to discredit people and what they say here,
You believe Irene is being deceived by the devil and yet you also seem to be stating that with full knowledge she strives to discredit people. If she is doing as you say is it not likely she is being deceived by the evil one in that to?
If she, like an alcoholic, is in denial then how is the best way to intervene?
Irene,
You wrote:
Quote The Spirit of Anti-Christ is if you deny Jesus COMING in the flesh. I do not deny that. Therefore I DO NOT HAVE THE SPIRIT OF ANTI-CHRIST…….PERIOD. And I do ot want to hear that from you again….Irene
PS Then t8 and Mike are too, which they are not.Could you please explain what you believe “coming in the flesh” means?
Kerwin,…….> that the point Irene is playing word games. If you say She does not believe Jesus came INTO EXISTENCE in the flesh , she she switches it as you trying to say Jesus was not born then she proceed to say that is not true she does believe Jesus was Born in the Flesh, leaving out the word Morphed into existence from another state of Being. Clever right, but i am not even sure she realizes she was doing that either. So what ever> IMO
peace and love to you and yours brother……………………………….gene
Quote (kerwin @ April 03 2011,09:42) Irene, You wrote:
Quote The Spirit of Anti-Christ is if you deny Jesus COMING in the flesh. I do not deny that. Therefore I DO NOT HAVE THE SPIRIT OF ANTI-CHRIST…….PERIOD. And I do ot want to hear that from you again….Irene
PS Then t8 and Mike are too, which they are not.Could you please explain what you believe “coming in the flesh” means?
Kerwin! Jesus became flesh.
Jhn 1:14 ¶ And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.I am not playing with words. I truly believe that Jesus became flesh. Scripture says so. I also gave Rev. 19 to show that The Word of God is Jesus. That is the only reason I gave that Scripture, since so many think that The Word of God is not Jesus. I also am very upset that Gene has called me a liar, by saying He never said what He did. Now again, He says I am playing with words. When is this going to end. He is loving? That is not a loving man when you disagree with Him.
The one person who disagrees with me and has never called me names is Paladin. That I find to be a loving Brother. Paladin if you reading this. Thank you…..
Peace and Love Irene
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