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Hi david,
God does not have an earth body so the likeness between our physical characteristics and His spiritual ones seems a little distant and rather tenous to me.Quote Topic: The soul, Is it separate? is it immortal?
When Jesus died on the cross we find his body went into the ground (tomb), his spirit was yielded up to GOD, and his soul
went to hell (Hades)
where it was not dead but rather active in preaching (by the SPIRIT) to the souls in prison (1 Peter 3:19-20)
The soul that sins will surely die, according to scripture.
The body of both sinner and saint goes to the ground in due course, the spirit – back to GOD who gave it (for vitality of the body)
even as in the pattern of Jesus. Leaving in question only the soul…
IMHO…Hi MF,
Kept alive in the abiding Spirit of God.
Soul not held by Hades, his body not allowed to rot and reused when he was raised.Not held – not able to remain imprisoned – for it was sin that imprisoned our souls.
So as the bearer of our sins his soul was dispatched to the prison – not to remain there
but rather to lead the captivity captive, bringing with him the souls of many in his resurrection.Hi MF,
Yes Lk16 suggests there are two places possible, Hades and the bosom of Abraham.
Other names are sheol, the pit, death.But for those in Jesus whom the gates of Hades also cannot hold, the mansions of Christ
Regarding Luke 16: I agree this shows two possible destinations for souls prior to Christs' resurrection.
I believe that prior to Messiah coming the souls of the just were kept in the 'bosom of Abraham'.
After his resurrection he secured for us a different route – through faith in HIS WORD (which was GOD's WORD via him)
For he said he who believes in me has passed from death to life, so the rebirth causes us to be dead to sin and the penalty
of sin. Ours souls therefore are no longer subject to an imprisonment but are set free in Christ.
Consider
Abraham himself was in hell before Christ.
IMHO
Hi MF,
Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, Moses, David too, are alive to God as the giving of God of the Spirit of life to them was without repentance. We join with them at the wedding table of the bridegroom.Yes Nick
They were justified by the SPIRIT of GOD under the covenant of the LAW.
We are justified by the SPIRIT of GOD under the new covenant of GRACE.
Both are redeemed in CHRIST, hence the need for his soul to descend and claim them.
For us his descent to earth to be the propitiation for sin was all that was required.
Hence the need to be born again, it is a must, there is no interim place for our souls to now go to.
IMOHi MF,
Psalm 30
1I will extol thee, O LORD; for thou hast lifted me up, and hast not made my foes to rejoice over me.2O LORD my God, I cried unto thee, and thou hast healed me.
3O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit.
4Sing unto the LORD, O ye saints of his, and give thanks at the remembrance of his holiness.
5For his anger endureth but a moment; in his favour is life: weeping may endure for a night, but joy cometh in the morning.
6And in my prosperity I said, I shall never be moved.
7LORD, by thy favour thou hast made my mountain to stand strong: thou didst hide thy face, and I was troubled.
8I cried to thee, O LORD; and unto the LORD I made supplication.
9What profit is there in my blood, when I go down to the pit? Shall the dust praise thee? shall it declare thy truth?
10Hear, O LORD, and have mercy upon me: LORD, be thou my helper.
11Thou hast turned for me my mourning into dancing: thou hast put off my sackcloth, and girded me with gladness;
12To the end that my glory may sing praise to thee, and not be silent. O LORD my God, I will give thanks unto thee for ever.
There remains the sovereign mercy of God as with Mt25
Amen Nick
When David wrote this (under the inspiration of the HOLY SPIRIT) was he speaking of his present experience?
When he wrote in Psalm 16 about GOD not leaving his soul in hell … was this not prophetic of Christ?
When he stood on a hill outside of Jerusalem – a rejected king and forgave the man who spat on him
was this not Christ foreshadowed in David, who stood on the same hill years later a rejected king and said
O Jerusalem how often would I have gathered you as a hen does her brood…
For all the holy men of old looked forward to Christ, their lives reflecting him, awaiting his arrival to fulfill all they
wrote of him, which was their hope and consolation.
IMOHi MF,
Yes
They shared his Spirit.1Peter1
10Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:11Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
12Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
amen
Same with the verse in 1Cor 10“4And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. “
Compare Jn7
37In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.38He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
Yes
So Jesus in descending to rescue the captivity was on a mission from GOD to redeem their souls from the prison.
Not their flesh or their spirit. He preached also to souls in that prison house who had not repented in the days of Noah.
(Those souls did not benefit much from his words I don't believe.)
He was not preaching to bodies – they had long since dispersed to the elements from which they were formed.
He was not preaching to spirits – they had returned to GOD who gave them
But to souls – the character, the nature of the life that had been manifested with the spirit given them by GOD,
in the body of flesh given them of GOD.
IMOHi MF,
1Peter3
18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
God repented of destroying these men.
I cannot imagine the visit of Jesus to them to preach was without fruit.Jesus also did not come to Israel to condemn them but most were condemned.
Moses was not sent by GOD to Israel to condemn but deliver them, yet all but Joshua and Caleb and a whole new generation
perished in the wilderness.
Noah was not given his message to condemn the world rather to move them to repentance, but we find only 8 souls were saved…
When Noah preached his message who was speaking? Noah or GOD (CHRIST)
When Moses preached his message who was speaking?
If GOD could give those unrepentant souls in Noah's' day a second chance, to receive salvation after death
Would HE not be unjust therefore not to also give those who refused the WORD of promise in Mose's day
(the promise that GOD has given you the land) a second chance?Quote God repented of destroying these men.
I cannot imagine the visit of Jesus to them to preach was without fruit.It was not without fruit – the WORD always produces one of two outcomes (fruit) life or death,
depending on whether you receive it or not.Hi MF,
Why would he go if he could not offer hope? To add misery to the lost? Would he?
The law was from Moses onwards and before the law there was no judgement by law.Rom3
19Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
There are yet to be seen fulfilled unique promises given to Israel as with Ez37 and Jl2Jl 2
14Who knoweth if he will return and repent, and leave a blessing behind him; even a meat offering and a drink offering unto the LORD your God?15Blow the trumpet in Zion, sanctify a fast, call a solemn assembly:
16Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet.
17Let the priests, the ministers of the LORD, weep between the porch and the altar, and let them say, Spare thy people, O LORD, and give not thine heritage to reproach, that the heathen should rule over them: wherefore should they say among the people, Where is their God?
18Then will the LORD be jealous for his land, and pity his people.
19Yea, the LORD will answer and say unto his people, Behold, I will send you corn, and wine, and oil, and ye shall be satisfied therewith: and I will no more make you a reproach among the heathen:
20But I will remove far off from you the northern army, and will drive him into a land barren and desolate, with his face toward the east sea, and his hinder part toward the utmost sea, and his stink shall come up, and his ill savour shall come up, because he hath done great things.
21Fear not, O land; be glad and rejoice: for the LORD will do great things.
22Be not afraid, ye beasts of the field: for the pastures of the wilderness do spring, for the tree beareth her fruit, the fig tree and the vine do yield their strength.
23Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month.
24And the floors shall be full of wheat, and the vats shall overflow with wine and oil.
25And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you.
26And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the LORD your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed.
27And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.
28And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
29And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
30And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come.
32And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.
I respect your opinion Nick
However I believe that HE is the same yesterday today and forever.
GOD cannot change HIS mind concerning HIS WORD.
What was Noah's message? Get in the ark and be saved from the coming judgments
What did the ark of Noah represent? Christ.
So regardless of the Law – which was only added later because of transgressions (Gal 3:19)
Why did GOD allow Israel to wander in the wilderness 40 years until those who had rejected the message of Moses perished?
Because that rock they followed was Christ!
They rejected Christ and perished, I see some consistency here…
As in the days of Noah the days of Moses, so in Jesus day – those who rejected Christ perished, and continue to do so by
the everlasting gospel.
After all if GOD changed HIS mind about destroying someone in another age how consistent is he then?
He would have to raise up Sodom and Gomorrah and apologize to them also wouldn't he? They never had the Law.Hi MF,
Good news.God is not harsh but love.
Mercy triumphs over judgement.
God is not bound by any laws or even limited by His promises.God is sovereign over all things.
Yes Nick GOD is love.
Whatever we consider love to be it must be tempered with the will and WORD of GOD.
Human love is one thing the love of GOD goes way beyond that.
You are right HE is not bound by any laws or limitations.
When HE makes a promise it is not as a man makes a promise.
A man can change his mind, GOD is not a man that HE should lie.
He is indeed sovereign over all things, and all things fall subject to HIS WORD which is perfect.
Therefore HE does not act inconsistently or at a whim, but all that HE does is according to and in perfect
harmony with HIS ETERNAL WORD which does not and cannot fail.
There are many ideas of who and what GOD is and is like.
Many interpretations of how that love of GOD is manifest.
Some would have the entire world to be saved on account of it.
But Jesus clearly told us straight is the gate, narrow the way and few there are that find it.
This is not inconsistent with the pattern of the WORD that had been manifest before he spoke those words.
GOD is no respecter of persons or their interpretations or expectations but acts only on HIS own will and council.
Which is in a minute way understandable by us when we look at HIS WORD and see the unchanging GOD at work in it.
I do not believe GOD changes HIS ways to suit a situation, neither does he overlook a situation and need to reassess it.
That's just what I think mind you, but I think this based on the consistency I see in the entire WORD of GOD.
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