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Hi greg,
There are some things about us we do not truly understand…yet.
Were John or Paul taken bodily into heaven?
If not how did they see things without eyes?How did John recognise souls under the altar unless they appear like people's bodies but different. I am sure they were not wearing identity tags.
How do we see when we have visions?
How do we see when we dream?Where did Enoch and Elija go when God took them, the price for their sin had yet to be paid. Were they given glorified bodies, if so how would that be possible without Christ's Blood?
What form was Moses in at the Mount of Transfiguration (and Elija), this occurred before Christ paid for his sin, yet his form was recognized. Also if he wasn't in Abraham's Bosom, how did he get out, Christ as I understand it didn't have the keys yet.We don't know a great many things, we MUST live by faith.
Hi Rudy,
I believe Enoch and Elijah went to heaven. I believe these two men are examples of those living who will be caught up to be with the Lord at the last trumph. Moses we know is alive right now and he was so at the time of Christ. We also know that he had previously died and was buried. Jude 1:9 says “But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” I personally feel that Moses was resurrected and the devil was not happy about it. As you pointed out, the penalty for sin was not paid yet. Both Moses and the people you previously mentioned who had risen at the time of our Lord's resurrection may be examples of those who will be raised from the dead at the first resurrection. King David has not yet risen. Acts 2:29 says “the patriarch David died and was buried and his tomb is here to this day” and then we are told “For David did not ascend to heaven” Act 2:34 This statement was made after those who had been raised at the time of our Lord's resurrection.
Hey greg,
You obviously love the Word.
Moses body was in dispute but not his soul.
We know Abraham saw the day of the messiah and was glad[Mt 8 56]. We know that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are not truly 'dead' but 'alive'
As Jesus said his Father was their God, the God of the 'living'[Mt 22 31-2]Just a quick thought:
The greek does seem to say that Lazurus went into the bosom of Abraham. He reached that destiny by being transported there by angels. The rich man reached his destiny of hades by being buried. It also said that the rich man “looked up” and saw Abraham and Lazurus in the bosoms of him. If this is a true example of what really happened to the righteous before the resurrection of our Lord then it seems contrary to what the old testament seems to say that both the righteous and the wicked go to sheol. This is even so if one says paradise existed before the resurrection as a compartment of hell. Paradise was the garden of eden which had the tree of life there. Paul was taken up to paradise in a vision or in actuallity (I don't think he was sure which). We are also told that “he who overcomes I will give him the right to eat from the tree of life which is in the paradise of God.” Rev 2:7. Did God remove the garden of eden before the flood came and has preserve it for us? Just a thought that I find interesting.Hi Nick,
Glad to see someone else is up at this hour!
Jesus made that reply to the Saducees didn't he? They did not believe in the resurrection. If we die, are we dead with no hope? God is not the God of the dead but of the living and this may be why Jesus called death a sleep. If you sleep, then you will awake. You are not dead. This statement Jesus made was to defend the resurrection.Hi greg,
Yes it is 9.30 pm in NZ.Are you in the USA?
Sheol may encompass Hades and the Bosom of Abraham. Clearly they are in reasonable proximaity is they can see each other-though it does not say Lazarus is awake or able to see the rich man.I used to think Paradise was another name for the Bosom of Abraham but the three mentionings of it in scripture seem to place it in different regions.
Could it be correct that it is where the tree of life is and God has moved that around? I think Enoch may suggest that. Anyway we need to look further.Here is Job's view of death:
“So man lies down and does not rise; till the heavens are no more, men will not awake or be roused from their sleep. If only you would hide me in the grave and conceal me till your anger has passed! If only you would set me a time and then remember me! If a man dies, will he live again? All the days of my hard service I will wait for my renewal to come. You will call and I will answer you; you will long for the creature your hands have made.” Job 14:12-15Yes Nick. I live in the state of Pa.
Quote (Guest @ April 14 2005,10:33) Hi Nick,
Glad to see someone else is up at this hour!
Jesus made that reply to the Saducees didn't he? They did not believe in the resurrection. If we die, are we dead with no hope? God is not the God of the dead but of the living and this may be why Jesus called death a sleep. If you sleep, then you will awake. You are not dead. This statement Jesus made was to defend the resurrection.
Yes, greg,
It was the Sadducees and Jesus was talking about the resurrection. But the statement remains true. God does not see these men as dead any more than Jesus, though he cried, believed Lazarus was truly dead. In faith he knew death was sleep.Here is Jesus's view:
“Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up” His disciples replied, “Lord if he sleeps, he will get better.” Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep. So he told them plainly, “”Lazarus is dead””. John 11:11-14
When speaking to Martha, “Jesus said to her, “”Your brother will rise again.”” John 11:23
Martha's perspective seems to be the same as Job's for she says “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
Jesus then replies with a similiar statement he made to the saducees. “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?” John 11:25This brings us back to the question, Do we never lose consciousness at death because Jesus says we will never die or can falling asleep at death and sleeping utill the resurrection still be true?
Hi greg,
I think most of the references to sheol suggest “sleep” is the usual status there. But scripture does not say Sheol is our destiny but it may just have applied to the Jews. The witch of Endor is interesting as she seemed to have awakened Samuel.
Death is certainly loss of physical consciousness but is there another level of consciousness? Did Stephen keep seeing Jesus and himself going to him when he “died”?
I would like to know more about “my Father's house” of Jn 14.There may definitely be different levels of consciousness. In physical death there are. However with anesthesia, I know I have never comprehended time. I personally feel that when I close my eyes at death I will immediately be seeing Jesus at the first resurrection.
I think John 14:1-4 is very important to understand. Jesus says I am going to come back and to you to be where I am. At the resurrection we should be going back to heaven to be with our Lord. “And they came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years” Rev 20:4 I wonder if what Jesus is preparing is the new jerusalem. I think this new jerusalem will be brought down to earth at the end of the thousand years at the time of judgement.The enire passage of John 14 is talking about going to the cross, shedding His blood, making atonement in the heavenly tabernacle, and rising from the grave and appearing to them after His resurrection. This is not speaking of the end of the church age.
In His Fathers house are many mansions, they're already built, Jesus is going to prepare the way, His Blood!Oddly enough, the disciples didn't get it either, that is not until they saw Him alive on the third day! For the shehpard was smitten and the sheep scattered.
But, they were brought back together after His resurrection!
John 16:16 “A little while, and you will see me no more; again a little while, and you will see me.” 17 Some of his disciples said to one another, “What is this that he says to us, 'A little while, and you will not see me, and again a little while, and you will see me'; and, 'because I go to the Father'?” 18 They said, “What does he mean by 'a little while'? We do not know what he means.” 19 Jesus knew that they wanted to ask him; so he said to them, “Is this what you are asking yourselves, what I meant by saying, 'A little while, and you will not see me, and again a little while, and you will see me'? 20 Truly, truly, I say to you, you will weep and lament, but the world will rejoice; you will be sorrowful, but your sorrow will turn into joy. 21 When a woman is in travail she has sorrow, because her hour has come; but when she is delivered of the child, she no longer remembers the anguish, for joy that a child is born into the world. 22 So you have sorrow now, but I will see you again and your hearts will rejoice, and no one will take your joy from you. 23 In that day you will ask nothing of me. Truly, truly, I say to you, if you ask anything of the Father, he will give it to you in my name. 24 Hitherto you have asked nothing in my name; ask, and you will receive, that your joy may be full. 25 “I have said this to you in figures; the hour is coming when I shall no longer speak to you in figures but tell you plainly of the Father. 26 In that day you will ask in my name; and I do not say to you that I shall pray the Father for you; 27 for the Father himself loves you, because you have loved me and have believed that I came from the Father. 28 I came from the Father and have come into the world; again, I am leaving the world and going to the Father.” 29 His disciples said, “Ah, now you are speaking plainly, not in any figure! 30 Now we know that you know all things, and need none to question you; by this we believe that you came from God.” 31 Jesus answered them, “Do you now believe? 32 The hour is coming, indeed it has come, when you will be scattered, every man to his home, and will leave me alone; yet I am not alone, for the Father is with me. 33 I have said this to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”
Quote (Rudy @ April 14 2005,18:32) The enire passage of John 14 is talking about going to the cross, shedding His blood, making atonement in the heavenly tabernacle, and rising from the grave and appearing to them after His resurrection. This is not speaking of the end of the church age.
In His Fathers house are many mansions, they're already built, Jesus is going to prepare the way, His Blood!Oddly enough, the disciples didn't get it either, that is not until they saw Him alive on the third day! For the shehpard was smitten and the sheep scattered.
But, they were brought back together after His resurrection!
John 16:16 “A little while, and you will see me no more; again a little while, and you will see me.” 17 Some of his disciples said to one another, “What is this that he says to us, 'A little while, and you will not see me, and again a little while, and you will see me'; and, 'because I go to the Father'?” 18 They said, “What does he mean by 'a little while'? We do not know what he means.” 19 Jesus knew that they wanted to ask him; so he said to them, “Is this what you are asking yourselves, what I meant by saying, 'A little while, and you will not see me, and again a little while, and you will see me'? 20 Truly, truly, I say to you, you will weep and lament, but the world will rejoice; you will be sorrowful, but your sorrow will turn into joy. 21 When a woman is in travail she has sorrow, because her hour has come; but when she is delivered of the child, she no longer remembers the anguish, for joy that a child is born into the world. 22 So you have sorrow now, but I will see you again and your hearts will rejoice, and no one will take your joy from you. 23 In that day you will ask nothing of me. Truly, truly, I say to you, if you ask anything of the Father, he will give it to you in my name. 24 Hitherto you have asked nothing in my name; ask, and you will receive, that your joy may be full. 25 “I have said this to you in figures; the hour is coming when I shall no longer speak to you in figures but tell you plainly of the Father. 26 In that day you will ask in my name; and I do not say to you that I shall pray the Father for you; 27 for the Father himself loves you, because you have loved me and have believed that I came from the Father. 28 I came from the Father and have come into the world; again, I am leaving the world and going to the Father.” 29 His disciples said, “Ah, now you are speaking plainly, not in any figure! 30 Now we know that you know all things, and need none to question you; by this we believe that you came from God.” 31 Jesus answered them, “Do you now believe? 32 The hour is coming, indeed it has come, when you will be scattered, every man to his home, and will leave me alone; yet I am not alone, for the Father is with me. 33 I have said this to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”
Hi Rudy,
In Jn 14 I agree that Jesus was going to a place where there are many dwellings but Jesus also said” for I go to PREPARE A PLACE FOR you” and he repeats this in the next verse. So while he was showing us the way there is more to it as well.So what preparation was Jesus going to be a part of organising? He went to heaven so is this there?
Stephen said “Lord Jesus receive my spirit”. That does not include soul or body. We know from Eccles 12 that in the OT at least the spirit returned to God when men died. But since we are in Jesus I would think we would return in spirit to him? Is the place to do with our role in his body which is reflected in the heavenly realms?
He did prepare the place by making habitable by us, we needed His blood to come into the Father's presence. That was the preparation. He never said “I go to build you a place…”.
He did return to His disciples in bodily form after the resurrection and first ascention to the Father.
When Jesus received Stephens' spirit was after the final ascention when He sat down at the right hand of the Father. Stephen was martyred after the day of Pentacost.
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