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Yes Nick, dead
Eccl. 3:19 “For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath;
so that a man has no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.”
v. 20 “All go unto one place, all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.”
Eccl. 9:5 “For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing,
neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.”
Ps. 6:5 “For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee
thanks?”
Ps. 88:10 “Wilt thou show wonders to the dead? Shall the dead arise and praise thee?”
v. 11 “Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? Or thy faithfulness in destruction?”
v. 12 “Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? And thy righteousness in the land of
forgetfulness?”
Ps. 115:17 “The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.”I can't make it any plainer than that. Sleeping simply means, there will be an awaykening from that death, it is not eaternal, to God we are still alive, even when dead.
Georg
Hi Georg,
The philosopher spoke of natural man and did not speak of those who sleep in the mansions of Christ.
Hades could not hold Christ and neither can it hold the sons of the kingdom.Mt16
18″I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.The abiding Spirit of Christ does not forsake us and is our hope of Glory
O K, Nick you win!
I was a baker, and I know how to twist dough, but I can't twist scripture the way you do.
Georg
Hi Georg,
Do you not share our hope of glory?
Do you think God is unfaithful and the Spirit does not abide but forsakes us in death?Quote (Irene @ Aug. 06 2008,09:53) O K, Nick you win! I was a baker, and I know how to twist dough, but I can't twist scripture the way you do.
Georg
Hi Georg,
These are serious accusations.
Why make them?Nick
Our hope is in the resurrection, but it is a resurrection from the dead. You can not be dead and alive at the same time, just as you can not have light and dark in the same room at the same time, or hot and cold in the same cup at the same time. If the scriptures I wrote down for you can't show you that, I can do no more. It has nothing to do with God being unfaithful, God raised up Jesus, he will raise us up too. No I don't think that God's Holy Spirit abides in us in our grave, it can do no good there.
Georg
Hi Georg,
Did Abraham see the day of Jesus?
John 8:56
” Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”Jesus died and was yet alive in the Spirit.
1Peter 3
18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
We follow him
Because you imply that I said the dead will stay in their grave, that is not so. I said when you're dead you're dead, that is what the scriptures say too.
Frankly, I don't know what you were trying to say.Georg
Hi Georg,
Did I imply that or is that how you read it?Jn14
1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.2In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Quote (Irene @ Aug. 06 2008,10:12) Nick Our hope is in the resurrection, but it is a resurrection from the dead. You can not be dead and alive at the same time, just as you can not have light and dark in the same room at the same time, or hot and cold in the same cup at the same time. If the scriptures I wrote down for you can't show you that, I can do no more. It has nothing to do with God being unfaithful, God raised up Jesus, he will raise us up too. No I don't think that God's Holy Spirit abides in us in our grave, it can do no good there.
Georg
Hi Georg,
This is the one we follow;Revelation 1:18
and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.We die in baptism and are raised in the Spirit
Rom6
3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Romans 8:10
If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.Ephesians 2:5
even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ ( by grace you have been saved),
Colossians 2:13
When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,Though vestiges of our old life remain our hope now is in the sustaining life of the Living Spirit of God
John 6:63
” It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of deathRomans 8:11
But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.Galatians 6:8
For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.No, Abraham did not see Jesus, he understood it from the prophesie he was given, “in you shall all nations be blessed.”
Jesus was made alive by the spirit, God's Holy Spirit resurrected him. And while he was in the tomb, grave, he did not go anywhere. Have you ever paid attention to verse 20? The same spirit that made Christ alive again, God's Holy Spirit, by the same spirit he went and preached to the spirits in prison.
What spirits? what prison? and when did he preach to them?verse 20 “who formerly were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared…”
In the days of Noah, while the ark was being build. Why did Noah have to build an ark? Because the angels that married woman had corupted God's creation, they produced hybrids, that is why God destroyed the world. It was these angels that the spirit of God preached too, in their prison, they are locked up untill their day of judgment.
Georg
Nick, your problem is that you too believe the lie that Satan told Eve, “you shall not surely die”.
Georg
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 06 2008,10:39) Quote (Irene @ Aug. 06 2008,10:12) Nick Our hope is in the resurrection, but it is a resurrection from the dead. You can not be dead and alive at the same time, just as you can not have light and dark in the same room at the same time, or hot and cold in the same cup at the same time. If the scriptures I wrote down for you can't show you that, I can do no more. It has nothing to do with God being unfaithful, God raised up Jesus, he will raise us up too. No I don't think that God's Holy Spirit abides in us in our grave, it can do no good there.
Georg
Hi Georg,
This is the one we follow;Revelation 1:18
and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.We die in baptism and are raised in the Spirit
Rom6
3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Romans 8:10
If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.Ephesians 2:5
even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ ( by grace you have been saved),
Colossians 2:13
When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,Though vestiges of our old life remain our hope now is in the sustaining life of the Living Spirit of God
John 6:63
” It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of deathRomans 8:11
But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.Galatians 6:8
For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
Nick! What has this got to do with anything.
GeorgQuote (Irene @ Aug. 06 2008,10:43) No, Abraham did not see Jesus, he understood it from the prophesie he was given, “in you shall all nations be blessed.”
Jesus was made alive by the spirit, God's Holy Spirit resurrected him. And while he was in the tomb, grave, he did not go anywhere. Have you ever paid attention to verse 20? The same spirit that made Christ alive again, God's Holy Spirit, by the same spirit he went and preached to the spirits in prison.
What spirits? what prison? and when did he preach to them?verse 20 “who formerly were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared…”
In the days of Noah, while the ark was being build. Why did Noah have to build an ark? Because the angels that married woman had corupted God's creation, they produced hybrids, that is why God destroyed the world. It was these angels that the spirit of God preached too, in their prison, they are locked up untill their day of judgment.
Georg
Hi Georg,
Abraham spoke in LK 16 and Moses and Elijah did with Jesus on the mountain.
They live to God and I do not think Abraham's rejoicing was prophetic but actual.
The “spirits in prison” surely were those of men who died at the time of Noah with no law to guide them. Angels who rebel cannot find redemption.I didn't say they were redeemed, or would be.
Nick, you write about redemption, but I don't think you understand it. Did not Jesus die for Abraham too? Did he not die for Moses and Elijah as well? How could they have possibly been forgiven before Jesus sacrifice? And please don't tell me Jesus didn't mean when he said, “no one has ascended to heaven”.Jude “And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day”.
These are the angels that committed that great sin. Angels don't die unless God destroyes them, they are aware of what they did and what will happen to them. Human beings that have died are aware of nothing.
Georg
Hi Georg,
Those whom God calls clean are clean.
Clean enough to hold the treasure of the Spirit of God unto eternity.Matthew 8:11
“I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven;Hi Georg,
Did Jesus really speak with Elijah and Moses on the mountain witnessed by 3 apostles?
He was real and seemed to have a good relationship with them.
Were they real too?Nick, is a vision real to the one who sees it?
Lazarus and the rich man was a parable, it left out the resurrection, it shows what will happen to you if you don't repent during the millennium. Abraham represents paradise, eternal life, while the flames represent the lake of fire, eternal death.
The appearance of Moses and Elijah was real to the apostles, Jesus allowed them a glimpse of what their reward would be, because he knew they would need all the encouragement they could get.Georg
Hi Georg,
Was the Jesus they saw speaking with Moses and Elijah not the one they had walked up the mountain with? Could Jesus have a discussion with a vision? Actually Lk 16 is a description of Hades, the place of waiting, and that is thrown in the lake of fire at the end of the Millenium.Abraham spoke with the rich man and allegories do not speak. Besides we have no right to allegorise truth but must let it speak and submit to it as truth.
Nick
Hades is the place for the dead, the grave. How do you destroy death and the grave. Death is not a thing or a being, it is a condition, brought on by the one who has the power over death, the Devil.
1 Cor. 15:26 “ The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death”.
Heb. 2:14 “… that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil”.So you see, when it speaks of throwing death and the grave into the lake of fire, it is not meant literally.
Georg
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