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I know some very simple things about the lake of fire. I know that death and hell (hades) are thrown into it. And those who face the second death.
Is death to be tortured forever along with hades?
Or are they, like those who experience the second death, to be destroyed?What effect can literal fire have on something such as death?
Perhaps, the lake of fire symbolizes complete destruction, the second death.Hi david,
Is the lake of fire as we know it on earth? Sulphur and brimstone? Can fire as we know it on earth destroy spiritual beings as well as their bodies?Quote (kenrch @ Nov. 04 2005,01:00) Quote (david @ Nov. 04 2005,00:49) Quote I agree persons are souls ..whether or not they are clothed in a body. Likewise animals too are beings. Their clay too was given life and nature from the breath of God.
Sheol and hades are not the same but hades is shown in Luke 16 by Jesus Christ to be the part of sheol where sinners await their judgement. Those who will inherit with Abraham are shown with Abraham.?
david.
You almost responded to one of my 10 questions here Nick. That's great.Quote 6.–If sheol and hades aren’t the same thing as you assert to fit your beliefs, why do we find Hades in Acts 2:31, where sheol occurs in Psalms 16:10?
–Was the one who quoted these words wrong?
–If this isn’t reason to believe they are the same, what other proof could possibly ever be given?
Hey David,What does the word spirit mean in Matt.5:3:
Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.Which definition describes spirit in the above scripture?
I think it's mind. What do you think?
Sorry, bad timing
Quote (david @ Nov. 04 2005,03:29) I know some very simple things about the lake of fire. I know that death and hell (hades) are thrown into it. And those who face the second death. Is death to be tortured forever along with hades?
Or are they, like those who experience the second death, to be destroyed?What effect can literal fire have on something such as death?
Perhaps, the lake of fire symbolizes complete destruction, the second death.
Hi david and kenrch
Matt 18 and 25 speak of an eternal fire and
Mk 9.43f and Mt 3.12 speaks of a fire which is not quenched. If everything is immediately consumed and nothing stays to sustain that fire why and how does it remain. The beast and the false prophet seem to sustain it for 1000 years, are they unique, the only ones, or just the first to join the devil and his angels?Quote (david @ Nov. 04 2005,00:56) Quote Are you really saying you discover the nature of God but studying the morals of Men? Bizarre. No Nick, you will notice if you read what I wrote that the first 4 questionings related to how JEHOVAH GOD feels about things. It looks at how he felt about burning people alive, it looks at HIS love, HIS justice, and what HE tells us about loving our enemies.
If even one of these points disagrees with your taking Jesus story of the rich man and lazarus as literal, then either the question is wrong, or you are wrong.
Please point to where I am in error.First, you say I repeat the same thing over and over, when in fact I've asked you many many question, all of which you've ignored. Then, when I number them, so you can count that there's more than one, you again IGNORE them. Do those scriptures I pointed to about God's love, justice, etc have no merit with you?
Notice what the first four questions relate to. There is a theme here, and it is God's personality and attributes.
Quote 1.–What does YOUR VERSION of Jeremiah 7:31 say?
–What does YOUR BIBLE tell us about Jehovah at Jeremiah 7:31?
–How does that thought about Jehovah at Jeremiah 7:31 in YOUR BIBLE compare to your understanding of the parable of the rich man and lazarus?
–If it never came into God’s heart, how can can we imagine he does such a thing on a larger scale? (Jer 7:31, Your Bible)2.– How can the God who tells us in the Bible that we are to love our ENEMIES wish to torture his enemies for eternity? (1 John 4:8-10)
3.–Is eternal torment of the wicked compatible with God's personality and love? “God IS love,” the Bible tells us.
–What loving parent would do such a thing? Would you do so?4.–If “all” Jehovah's “ways are justice,” (Deut 32:4) and if He is a “lover of justice,” (Ps 37:28-29), then we would expect his judgemnets to be fair, or just, wouldn't we?
–Is tormenting a person eternally because he did wrong on earth for a few years is contrary to justice?
–If a law of exact retribution was given to Israel (eye for eye, tooth for tooth, Ex 21:24) what conclusion can we reach about the doctrine of hellfire? Eternal torment for eternal torment?
–Considering that Jesus’ teachings moderated the idea of retaliation, how can you see justness in eternal torment? (Mt 5:38, 39; Ro 12:17)
–Even if someone was guilty of extreme wickedness all his life of 70 or 80 years, would everlasting torment be a just punishment?
dave
Hi david,
Jesus spoke of a place called Hades in Lk 16.He described certain details about it that are unique.
Would he not know as he was involved in the creation of all things?
Are these things not true in your view?
He said he is the truth.
Do you find fault in him and call him a liar?
Nick, where have I once said that anything Jesus said wasn't true?
But as we know, he spoke in illustrations, all the time. This cannot be disputed:
MATTHEW 13:34-35
“All these things Jesus spoke to the crowds by illustrations. Indeed, without an illustration he would not speak to them; that there might be fulfilled what was spoken through the prophet who said: “I will open my mouth with illustrations, I will publish things hidden since the founding.””Parables, while they REVEAL TRUTH, do not have to be true literal stories in themselves. I know you understand this. And this is what I'm saying. So you can stop saying that I'm saying Jesus' words were not true. I HAVE NEVER SAID THIS, OR EVEN IMPLIED IT.
And, something else that you may apply to yourself, but won't.
MATTHEW 13:13-15
“This is why I speak to them by the use of illustrations, because, looking, they look in vain, and hearing, they hear in vain, neither do they get the sense of it; and toward them the prophecy of Isaiah is having fulfillment, which says, ‘By hearing, YOU will hear but by no means get the sense of it; and, looking, YOU will look but by no means see. For the heart of this people has grown unreceptive, and with their ears they have heard without response, and they have shut their eyes; that they might never see with their eyes and hear with their ears and get the sense of it with their hearts and turn back, and I heal them.’”Nick, what do you think the lake of fire actually is? I'm really not sure what you actually think it is. Do you think it's literal fire here on earth somewhere, or were you asking me if I thought that? How will death and hades burn in this literal lake of fire? How do you burn death? How do you burn hades?
david.
Hi david,
Matt 25.41f
” Out of my sight you condemned, into that everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels….These will go off to eternal punishment and the just to eternal life”Do you look forward to eternal life? It seems the same word “eternal” is used for the punishment of the wicked.
I do not think something so intense and powerful as the lake of fire could be on earth. Why should the devil and his angels be punished on earth?
You quote Matthew 25:41, then actually verse 46.
Verse 46 I've already said this about:Matt. 25:46, KJ: “These shall go away into everlasting punishment [“lopping off,” Int; Greek, ko´la·sin]: but the righteous into life eternal.” (The Emphatic Diaglott (and my translation) reads “cutting-off” instead of “punishment.” A footnote states: “Kolasin . . . is derived from kolazoo, which signifies, 1. To cut off; as lopping off branches of trees, to prune. 2. To restrain, to repress. . . . 3. To chastise, to punish. To cut off an individual from life, or society, or even to restrain, is esteemed as punishment;—hence has arisen this third metaphorical use of the word. The primary signification has been adopted, because it agrees better with the second member of the sentence, thus preserving the force and beauty of the antithesis. The righteous go to life, the wicked to the cutting off from life, or death. See 2 Thess. 1.9.”)
OK Nick, how do you explain the following scripture?
2 Thess. 1:9, RS: “They shall suffer the PUNISHMENT OF ETERNAL DESTRUCTION* and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.” (*“Eternal ruin,” NAB, NE; “lost eternally,” JB; “condemn them to eternal punishment,” Kx; “eternal punishment in destruction,” Dy.)
The lake of fire is not on earth, of course. Being that it's a symbol of complete and everlasting destruction, it's technically not really anywhere.
In the Bible, we are told that “the last enemy, death is to be done away with.” (I don't remember the exact scripture that is.)
Where will death be after it's been thrown in the lake of fire?
Where is death now?
It's not really anywhere. But death will cease. It will cease to exist, because no one else will ever die.
Why burn death for all time?david.
Hi david,
There is a similarity between Lk 25.41
“Depart from me..”
And 2Thess 1.9
” away from the presence of the Lord”[Are the 'death' of Rev 20.14 and the 'death' of 1Cor 15.26 the same? I think not. The death of Revelation is a place to be emptied, but that of Corinthians is an enemy destroyed during the reign of Christ.]
So that the punishment takes place apart from God's presence.
Quote (david @ Nov. 04 2005,23:27) KENRCH, what do YOU think of the 10 questions I've asked Nick?
Hi david & Nick,This chapter always gave me trouble. So I'm afraid all i have is mostly questions.
Rev 20:5 The rest of the dead lived not until the thousand years should be finished. This is the first resurrection.
Seems like if there is a first resurrection then they aught to be a second.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne; and books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Is this a second resurrection? The dead were standing before the throne. Were they dead meaning “not saved” the dead bury the dead?
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead that were in it; and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Dead, death, Hades! These people were dead, dead!:-)
But they were judged, according to their works. Were these people already judged, being they were in the grave already? Are these the evil, antichrists (plural) that Jesus spoke of in the days of Noah? When every thought was evil?Rev 20:14 And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire.
The second and last death! All evil destroyed, no more tears, just joy in the Lord. Can't wait!!!!!:-)
Rev 21:4 and he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more; neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more: the first things are passed away.
Hi kenrch,
The saved are not among the judged. As it says in Jn they do not come under judgement but have already passed from death to life. Instead they appear before the tribunal of Christ as shown in the parable of the talents. So you will see the first resurrection in Rev 20. 4-5Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 05 2005,04:22) Hi kenrch,
The saved are not among the judged. As it says in Jn they do not come under judgement but have already passed from death to life. Instead they appear before the tribunal of Christ as shown in the parable of the talents. So you will see the first resurrection in Rev 20. 4-5
Hi Nick,Rev. 20:12 this isn't a second resurrection? The dead were standing. They were judged out of the things written in the “books” according to their works.
I really don't know, as I said all I have is questions.Verse 13 the sea death and hades gave up their dead. And these people were judjed.
What is the difference between the dead in verse 12 and the dead in verse 13?Verse 14 death and hades were thrown into the lake of fire.
Does this mean that all the dead that were judged were in the grave then thrown into the lake of fire?
Verse 15 my wife wants to know is this guy alive “he” was thrown into the lake of fire.
When you get a chance.
Hi kenrch,
Rev 20 12-13. I don't think there is any difference between the two in terms that all of them come before the throne, but some of the various groups are specified. Why should the fact that they were standing matter? They are resurrected into their bodies.Hi ,
Is the soul immortal? Well if immortal means it cannot die that is not true. It does not die in the first death but goes to Sheol. Men wait there for resurrection and judgement. But Matt 10.28 makes it plain that God can destroy it in the Lake of Fire or the second death so it is not truly immortal.Hi,
Gen 1.26
” Then God said 'Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness.'.”So we are made in the image and likeness of God. We are dust. Is God dust?
No we are living souls derived from the breath of God.
We are heart and mind and life in the image of God living in a tent of dust.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 06 2005,17:04) Hi kenrch,
Rev 20 12-13. I don't think there is any difference between the two in terms that all of them come before the throne, but some of the various groups are specified. Why should the fact that they were standing matter? They are resurrected into their bodies.
Hi Nick,Rev. 20:11 The Great White Thrown
Rev. 20:12 The dead stand before the thrown.
The Books Are Opened
The Book Of Life Is Opened.
They Are Judged According To Their Works
Written In The “Books”
Rev. 20:13 The Sea Grave, Death And Hades Just
“Give Up” The Dead.
These Dead Are Not Standing Before
The Judgement Thrown.
Then The Scripture Simply Says
That These Dead Are Judged According To
Their Works.
Rev. 20:13:
1) These Dead Unlike Verse 12 Are “Not”
Standing.
2) The Sea Grave, Death and Hades “Gave” Up
The Dead.
3)There Are No Books To Judge From But Yet
They Are Judged According To Their Works.Number one is shouting at me that these dead are resurrected to “damnation” not to life.
Number two is screaming at me that these dead are resurrected dead and remain dead.
Number three is hollering at me that these are the wicked and are judged already because their names are not written in the book of life.
Therefore this is a resurrection of the wicked evil dead that reject Christ.
Verses 14 & 15 confirms that this is the end of death, grave and evil forever!
Hi kenrch,
Rev 20.13
“Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, the great and the small standing before the throne, and books were opened and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them;and they were judged, everyone of them according to their deeds. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire”So the saved are not here having already passed from death to life. There are all the dead who have been in the second resurrection.Then from v 13 they are specified as to where their resurrected bodies were-some in the sea and some in the earth. Those who are here are those waiting in the earth in “death”[bosom of Abraham]and Hades.
All are judged according to the same two principles.Those who are written in the “book of life” specifically because of kindnesses to the followers of Christ [“Whoever gives you a cup of water… will not lose his reward”]are saved. They are sheep.
All other deeds recorded in the books:because none are righteous in the eyes of God and all have sinned none can be justified by his own deeds except those above done to Christians-all are lost. They are goats.
There is not differentiation between where they came from to the throne. All face the same judgement.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 02 2005,19:21) Hi kenrch,
Rev 20.13
“Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, the great and the small standing before the throne, and books were opened and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them;and they were judged, everyone of them according to their deeds. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire”So the saved are not here having already passed from death to life. There are all the dead who have been in the second resurrection.Then from v 13 they are specified as to where their resurrected bodies were-some in the sea and some in the earth. Those who are here are those waiting in the earth in “death”[bosom of Abraham]and Hades.
All are judged according to the same two principles.Those who are written in the “book of life” specifically because of kindnesses to the followers of Christ [“Whoever gives you a cup of water… will not lose his reward”]are saved. They are sheep.
All other deeds recorded in the books:because none are righteous in the eyes of God and all have sinned none can be justified by his own deeds except those above done to Christians-all are lost. They are goats.
There is not differentiation between where they came from to the throne. All face the same judgement.
Nick two different judgements in verse 12 and 13The people in verse 12 receive rewards from the books. They are already saved just look in the book of life. I gave scripture showing that we will receive a reward. Some better rewards than others.
the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds
and they were judged, everyone of them according to their deeds
People who reject Christ are judged already. The grave gave them up. Do you want to put the cart before the horse and say that the grave gave up the dead that stood in front of the Thrown. You want to put verse 13 before verse 12.
Well, I can't give you eyes.
Have you ever thought out of the box that they put you in Nick.
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