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Hi david and WIT,
Scripture says man was created from the dust.
Then God blew into his nostrils.
Man became a living being.It does not say the being or soul of man was created from the dust and then God blew life into that being.
Right, it says: And Jehovah God proceeded to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man came to be a living soul.
Again, notice what it actually says. Imagine he was making a clay vessel, instead of a man. This scipture doesn't say: He made a man. Then he put a soul in him. It says, he proceeded to form the man (he was in the process of making the man) and when given the spirit, he BECAME A LIVING SOUL. Since “soul” is used interchangably with “man,” “person” “creature,” etc so much, it should be understandable that he became a man when he was given the spirit, the breath of God. He BECAME a soul, a man.
“Then life and soul was added…” you said. NOOO. He BECAME a living soul, or man when the spirit was added. Obviously, we found issue with this, for it is quite a bit different from what this scripture says.
Hi david and Adam,
Would you have preferred scripture to say that man was made a lifeless being and the God blew into his nostrils life?But that is an oxymoron.The definition of a being is something that has life so man as created was not a being but a thing of dust. Then the clay was given life and being by the breath of God.
Quote Hi david and Adam,
Would you have preferred scripture to say that man was made a lifeless being and the God blew into his nostrils life?The equation is pretty simple:
man(1) + breath of life(2) = living soul(3)
“And the [Yahweh] God formed man of the dust of the ground(1), and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life(2); and man became a living [soul](3).”
Your equation:
man(1) + breath of life(2) + soul(3) = living being(?)
does not come from this verse. It is your own invention.
Be a Berean Nick. Look up “05315” on http://www.blueletterbible.org, and see how the word is used. Come to your own conclusions. I truly believe that you will learn a lot if you do.
No WIT,
Your chemistry is not correct in my humble opinion..
NSB 5315 nephesh[659b];from an unused word;
a soul, a living being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, emotion;
The commonest translations are Soul[238],Life[147],person[70]persons[19]himself[19]but it can also be very occasionally used for corpse, body, man,creatures, beings and death etc.It is interesting that the NASB did not choose soul here as most do. So the overwhelming implication is that is has to do with a soul, life or a person.
So my formula is
Dust moulded by God =man
Dust + breath of God=man=Living soul.Therefore the personality, mind , heart and life came into man's clay body from the breath of God for him to become a living soul or living being.
He remains made up of parts- body, soul and spirit and only the word of God can clearly separate these parts.
Again, for the nth time, you say “soul” was one of the parts of him when Adam was created.
The Bible says he came to “be a living soul.”Why fight that?
Nick,
You are not even adhering to your own formula. You wrote:
Quote So my formula is
Dust moulded by God =man
Dust + breath of God=man=Living soul.By your own formula, a living soul is one part body and one part spirit. Yet you go on to say:
Quote He remains made up of parts– body, soul and spirit and only the word of God can clearly separate these parts. Suddenly, the soul becomes a “part” instead of the end product of creation! It's amazing how easily you re-substitute your own formula for what you just correctly read from scripture.
Try this exercise Nick. Perhaps it will help.
1 + 2 = 3
(1) man/dust + (2) breath of life = (3) living soul
3 – 2 = 1
(3) living soul – (2) breath of life = (1) man/dust
3 – 1 = 2
(3) living soul – (1) man/dust = (2) breath of life
1 + 2 + 3 = 6
(1) man/dust + (2) breath of life + (3) living soul = (6) something else
2 + 3 = 5
(2) breath of life + (3) living soul = (5) something different
1 + 3 = 4
(1) man/dust + (3) living soul = (4) something also different
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Nov. 02 2005,14:44) Nick, You are not even adhering to your own formula. You wrote:
Quote So my formula is
Dust moulded by God =man
Dust + breath of God=man=Living soul.By your own formula, a living soul is one part body and one part spirit. Yet you go on to say:
Quote He remains made up of parts– body, soul and spirit and only the word of God can clearly separate these parts. Suddenly, the soul becomes a “part” instead of the end product of creation! It's amazing how easily you re-substitute your own formula for what you just correctly read from scripture.
Try this exercise Nick. Perhaps it will help.
1 + 2 = 3
(1) man/dust + (2) breath of life = (3) living soul
3 – 2 = 1
(3) living soul – (2) breath of life = (1) man/dust
3 – 1 = 2
(3) living soul – (1) man/dust = (2) breath of life
1 + 2 + 3 = 6
(1) man/dust + (2) breath of life + (3) living soul = (6) something else
2 + 3 = 5
(2) breath of life + (3) living soul = (5) something different
1 + 3 = 4
(1) man/dust + (3) living soul = (4) something also different
Hi WIT,
Not so.
You see God describes man in two dimensions. He is described as dust[outer man] and he is described as living soul[inner man]. Both views are valid but mutually exclusive.God says man became a living soul. Both the life and the soul are from the breath of God and that breath is blown into the earthy clay tent much as air is blown into a balloon.
Paul uses these comparisons not infrequently as in Romans 7 and 2 Cor 4-5. When God describes man as inner man then the outer man[body] is described only as a tent.
Hi,
The soul is dependant on the viable health of the body to live a physical life. A damaged or incomplete body may limit expression of the personality within. But the personality or soul is still always intact and is the same at the resurrection despite the destruction of that flesh. Destruction of the flesh may cause only physical death. Satan, as the god of this world, has the ability to damage or destroy the bodies of men. Job shows clearly his powers as allowed by God.
1Cor 5.9
” I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan, for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus”HEY NICK,
I totally forgot. I have this Bible that I went through and outlined all the scriptures relating to soul/spirit/and condition of the dead. You mentioned Job. I think we should put his mentionings of spirit/soul/etc down as they are quite insightful.MAN FROM DUST, TO DUST HE WILL “RETURN.” HE WILL RETURN TO WHERE HE CAME FROM, NOWHERE. WHERE WAS ADAM BEFORE HE WAS CREATED? NOWHERE. THAT'S WHERE HE RETURNED, TO THE DUST.
JOB 10:9
“Remember, please, that out of clay you have made me And to dust you will make me return.”YET, WE ARE NOT LEFT WITHOUT HOPE
JOB 14:7
“For there exists hope for even a tree. If it gets cut down, it will even sprout again, And its own twig will not cease to be.”JOB 12:10
“In whose hand is the soul of everyone alive And the spirit of all flesh of man?”THE FOLLOWING IS A VERY INTERESTING SCRIPTURE:
JOB 14:14-15
“If an able-bodied man dies can he live again? All the days of my compulsory service I shall wait, Until my relief comes. You will call, and I myself shall answer you. For the work of your hands you will have a yearning.”
(Jehovah would have a yearning for ones such as Job, faithful servants of his. Job would spend the days of his “compulsory service” in the grave. But, how comforting to know Jehovah yearns to resurrect those who love him.)THE SPIRIT
JOB 27:3
“While my breath is yet whole within me, And the spirit of God is in my nostrils,”
JOB 33:4
“God’s own spirit made me, And the Almighty’s own breath proceeded to bring me to life.”SPIRIT AND BREATH
JOB 34:14-15
“If he sets his heart upon anyone, [If] that one’s spirit and breath he gathers to himself, All flesh will expire together, And earthling man himself will return to the very dust.”I just thought these were interesting scriptures and no one has really quoted from Job recently.
david.
Quote Hi WIT,
Not so.
You see God describes man in two dimensions. He is described as dust[outer man] and he is described as living soul[inner man]. Both views are valid but mutually exclusive.God says man became a living soul. Both the life and the soul are from the breath of God and that breath is blown into the earthy clay tent much as air is blown into a balloon.
Argue you with this:
“And the [Yahweh] God formed man of the dust of the ground… .”
What did YHWH make from the dust of the ground?
The scripture says man.
What is man?
The scripture says “the dust of the ground”.
Is man made up of three parts?
The scripture says man is one part dust.
A living soul, on the other hand – (which is not a part, but a whole person!) – is made up of two parts: man/dust and the breath of life/spirit.
You can agree with the scripture above or choose your own answer, Nick.
Your interpretation of Genesis 2:7 defies simple math. Other readers can see this and draw their own conclusions.
Hey What is True.
Nick has formed a very complex belief system about the soul/spirit/condition of the dead. He's not willing to abandon it no matter how many times we quote Genesis.
So, WIT, since Nick is avoiding this question like the plague, what do you think: Would Nick, a loving parent press his son's hand into a stove burner?
I know you don't know Nick, but you know other humans who have a shred of human decency. So what do you think?david
Quote 1Cor 5.9
” I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan, for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus”
Hey Nick.
Again, a quick look at the context quickly dispells applying the wrong understanding of the word “spirit” in this instance. Oh, it's 1 Cor 5:5 by the way, not 5:9.As I've already shown from many many scriptures, there are many uses of the word “spirit” as used in the Bible. I put those down (or spammed them) as you say so we wouldn't have these misunderstandings.
“The Lord be with the spirit you show. His undeserved kindness be with you people.”—2 Tim. 4:22.
Everyone has a certain spirit. That is, he has a particular disposition, inclination or motivating force. Hence, it is not surprising that people often become well known for the motivation behind what they say and do. (See Num. 12:3; 1 Sam 25:3,39)
The apostle Paul, in writing to his co-worker Timothy, expressed himself this way: “The Lord be with the spirit you show. His undeserved kindness be with you people.” (2 Tim. 4:22)
Paul desired that God, by the Lord Jesus Christ approve the actuating force displayed by Timothy.Just as a person manifests a certain spirit, an entire congregation of God’s people has a certain spirit.
To the congregation of Christians in the city of Philippi, he wrote: “The undeserved kindness of the Lord Jesus Christ be with the spirit you show.” (Phil. 4:23) The apostle expressed himself similarly when writing to Galatian Christians.—Gal. 6:18.
Those associated with the congregation may be very spiritual in their viewpoint. In that case, ‘the undeserved kindness of the Lord Jesus Christ is with the spirit you people show.’—Philem. 25.SAVING THE CONGREGATION’S SPIRIT
Such a fine spirit should be maintained. The importance of preserving a congregation’s spirit was emphasized in ancient Corinth. The apostle Paul learned that among the Christians in that city sexual immorality was being tolerated, “such fornication as is not even among the nations, that a wife a certain man has of his father.”—1 Cor. 5:1.
Overseers of that congregation had not expelled this person, but Paul urged them to “hand such a man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh.” They were to put him out of the Christian congregation into the world ruled by Satan the Devil and where destruction awaits. (1 John 5:19) Why take this action? As Paul said, “in order that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord,” Jesus Christ.—1 Cor. 5:3-5.
This man had to be disfellowshiped if the “spirit,” or spirituality of the congregation, based upon God’s Word, was to be saved. Otherwise, ‘a little leaven would ferment the whole lump,’ that is, a spiritually corrupting influence would permeate the congregation and Jehovah would cut off that congregation. Today it is just as vital that the congregation’s spirit, based on Jehovah’s inspired Word, be saved.—1 Cor. 5:6.Consider the apostle Paul’s words about his own spirit or dominant attitude. At 1 Corinthians 5:3-5 we read: “I for one, although absent in body but present in spirit, have certainly judged already, as if I were present, the man who has worked in such a way as this, that in the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are gathered together, also my spirit with the power of our Lord Jesus, you hand such a man over to Satan.”
In this case, through Paul’s letter, the Corinthian Christians knew Paul’s SPIRIT OR ATTITUDE regarding the allowance of corrupting influence in the congregation. So when they met to consider this matter, Paul’s spirit or forceful attitude was right there, as if a person. Once a decision was made that agreed with the spirit Paul showed, Christians at Corinth could in effect say, ‘We ourselves and Paul’s spirit have decided to expel the unrepentant man.’ On the other hand, had they gone contrary to the right spirit that the apostle manifested, they would have ‘grieved’ it.david.
Quote (david @ Nov. 02 2005,23:05) Hey What is True.
Nick has formed a very complex belief system about the soul/spirit/condition of the dead. He's not willing to abandon it no matter how many times we quote Genesis.
So, WIT, since Nick is avoiding this question like the plague, what do you think: Would Nick, a loving parent press his son's hand into a stove burner?
I know you don't know Nick, but you know other humans who have a shred of human decency. So what do you think?david
Hi david,
I do not answer because I do not want to encourage you to continue to judge God.Quote (david @ Nov. 02 2005,22:50) HEY NICK,
I totally forgot. I have this Bible that I went through and outlined all the scriptures relating to soul/spirit/and condition of the dead. You mentioned Job. I think we should put his mentionings of spirit/soul/etc down as they are quite insightful.MAN FROM DUST, TO DUST HE WILL “RETURN.” HE WILL RETURN TO WHERE HE CAME FROM, NOWHERE. WHERE WAS ADAM BEFORE HE WAS CREATED? NOWHERE. THAT'S WHERE HE RETURNED, TO THE DUST.
JOB 10:9
“Remember, please, that out of clay you have made me And to dust you will make me return.”YET, WE ARE NOT LEFT WITHOUT HOPE
JOB 14:7
“For there exists hope for even a tree. If it gets cut down, it will even sprout again, And its own twig will not cease to be.”JOB 12:10
“In whose hand is the soul of everyone alive And the spirit of all flesh of man?”THE FOLLOWING IS A VERY INTERESTING SCRIPTURE:
JOB 14:14-15
“If an able-bodied man dies can he live again? All the days of my compulsory service I shall wait, Until my relief comes. You will call, and I myself shall answer you. For the work of your hands you will have a yearning.”
(Jehovah would have a yearning for ones such as Job, faithful servants of his. Job would spend the days of his “compulsory service” in the grave. But, how comforting to know Jehovah yearns to resurrect those who love him.)THE SPIRIT
JOB 27:3
“While my breath is yet whole within me, And the spirit of God is in my nostrils,”
JOB 33:4
“God’s own spirit made me, And the Almighty’s own breath proceeded to bring me to life.”SPIRIT AND BREATH
JOB 34:14-15
“If he sets his heart upon anyone, [If] that one’s spirit and breath he gathers to himself, All flesh will expire together, And earthling man himself will return to the very dust.”I just thought these were interesting scriptures and no one has really quoted from Job recently.
david.
Hi david,
I love Job.
You left out a few othe verses from there
14.12
“So a man lies down and does not rise, until the heavens are no longer. He will not awake nor be aroused out of his sleep”
Interseting. So this speaks of thos who make their bed and sleep in Sheol of Ez 31etc.So all still live but sleep and can be awakened at the resurrection?
17.13
“If I look for sheol as my home, I make my bed in the darkness. If I call to the pit.'You are my father', to the worm'my mother and my sister';where now is my hope? will it go down with me to sheol? Shall we together go down into the dust?Indeed where there is life there is hope for the godly.
19.26
“Even after my skin is destroyed, yet from my flesh I shall see God, who I myself shall behold, and whom my eyes will see and not another”So the same person after death will be raised to see God. Must have been asleep perhaps?
32.8
“But it is a spirit in man, and the breath of the Almighty gives them understanding”So the mind, a soul attribute, is given of the breath of God.
33.21f
” His flesh wastes away from sight and his bones which were not seen stick out. Then his soul draws near to the pit and his life to those who bring death…He has redeemed my soul from going to the pit and my life shall see the light…To bring back his soul from the pit that he may be enlightened with the light of life”
So the soul is separate from flesh and goes to the pit. InterestingQuote I do not answer because I do not want to encourage you to continue to judge God.
First, I don't judge God, but am saddened by your slander of Him.Nick, you don't answer because the answer is ridiculously obvious. It is obvious to me, you and anyone reading this. It's obvious to your son's, daughters, family and friends. It's obvious even to people who don't know you.
And if you were to state what is so ridiculously obvious, this would create a big big problem with your beliefs:
THE PROBLEM
If you, a loving parent wouldn't do such a horrific thing, why would you interpret a parable to paint God as someone who would, while ignoring hundreds of other scriptures about hades, and the soul?A problem indeed. Maybe if we ignore it, it will go away.
Maybe all those questions and scriptures I asked you about will go away.david
Hi david,
If you keep talking perhaps those scriptures that offend you will vanish?Then you may stop attacking the messenger too?Hi,
Is God a being? Yes
Does God have a body? No, God is spirit.
So does a being need a body to be a being? No
Can a body not be a being? Yes, dead bodies are not beings.
Are the dead still beings? Yes.They have not stopped existing just because their body has died.
Are we made like to God? Yes we are made like too Him according to scripture.
So if we have a body and God has not, how can we be like to God? Because we are not our body. We are living beings made like to God and we live in our tents..
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