The soul

[mikeboll64]

Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 06 2011,20:16)

Mike either the spirit is part of the soul and is so stored ,until resurrected,the body is a replace part , wen God destroyed the soul ,i don't know that it would be by removing his spirit from the soul so that it perish,i am not sure ,but something like that.(nothing can subside without Gods spirit)

Hi Pierre,

I don't get your connection.  We know the spirit goes back to God when we die.  We know the body decays.  If you think the soul is entertwined WITH the spirit, then our souls also go back to God.  If that is the case, which part is going to be raised from under the sea and under the earth in the resurrection?

And I don't agree that nothing can “subside” without God's Spirit.  And I don't think that nothing can exist without it.  I believe nothing can be conscious or actually LIVE without it.

But the souls awaiting resurrection aren't really “alive”, for they no longer have God's Spirit running through them, right?

mike

[terraricca]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 08 2011,19:22)

Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 06 2011,20:16) Mike either the spirit is part of the soul and is so stored ,until resurrected,the body is a replace part , wen God destroyed the soul ,i don't know that it would be by removing his spirit from the soul so that it perish,i am not sure ,but something like that.(nothing can subside without Gods spirit) Hi Pierre, I don't get your connection.  We know the spirit goes back to God when we die.  We know the body decays.  If you think the soul is entertwined WITH the spirit, then our souls also go back to God.  If that is the case, which part is going to be raised from under the sea and under the earth in the resurrection? And I don't agree that nothing can “subside” without God's Spirit.  And I don't think that nothing can exist without it.  I believe nothing can be conscious or actually LIVE without it. But the souls awaiting resurrection aren't really “alive”, for they no longer have God's Spirit running through them, right? mike

Mike

is it the spirit that God gives to the soul that bring it live ?if yes then it only can die wen God destroy it ,NO?

the body is given live wen breath is entered in the nostrils and breaths ,but it can not do anything by it self ,the body has no will to move by it self,it needs the soul with the spirit in it.
the soul needs the body just as a body need the soul to perform any works.
this is what i believe ,this is what make Christian not fear dead

Pierre

[mikeboll64]

Quote (david @ Mar. 06 2011,23:58)

Except, Jesus wouldn't contradict other scriptures that say that people can kill souls (people can kill people).  People can destroy souls (people can destroy lives of people). See above where I list scriptures that show people killing souls.

Hi David,

You are correct that Jesus wouldn't contradict other scriptures.  And you keep saying that Matthew 10:28 is the ONLY one, but that's not accurate.  What about Thessalonians?

I completely understand the JW thinking on this.  Man can take away what you have right now, but God can take away anything you might have had in the future also.

I understand it, but don't agree with it.    I still think “soul” could be used for the “life” of someone in a broader, general sense, but that it also has a more specific meaning.  

I think Paul and Jesus also use the more specific meaning of it in their statements.

And I think the scholars bear out this “double meaning”:

psuche:
2c) the soul as an essence which differs from the body and is not
dissolved by death (distinguished from other parts of the body)  

nephesh:
1) soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being,
desire, emotion, passion
1a) that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the
inner being of man

I think the JWs are only looking at ONE of the meanings of the words, instead of all of them.  If not, then explain how your own first scripture, Genesis 35:18, means the whole person INCLUDING THE BODY:

NASB ©
It came about as her soul was departing (for she died), that she named him Ben-oni; but his father called him Benjamin.

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (david @ Mar. 07 2011,00:00)

Quote Also, consider that a person can live without his fleshly body of dirt.  Many do and many more will.  The soul is the being or life of a person.  But we know that soul does not have to be in a body of dirt in order to live, right?  Therefore, even though it's not spelled out in Genesis, we KNOW that man does have a body, but does not necessarily NEED that body in order to live. So understanding 2:7 to be saying the body is included in the soul doesn't follow throughout the scriptures.  Or else those raised to life in heaven would need that body of dirt in order to live.   That is, if God GIVES that person a spiritual body.  I don't believe there is a spirit body inside each of us, as many believe.  We are not spirits encased in bodies.  If God resurrects someone with a spirit body, that is different then them having a spirit body inside of them.

Hi David,

You apparently misunderstood me, for I claimed nothing about a spirit body dwelling inside us.

What I'm saying is that we know that our lives do not depend upon our body of dust.  Our very same beings can live in a new earthly body…………OR a glorious new heavenly spiritual body like Christ has been given, right?  

And if that is the case, then your understanding of Gen 2:7 is flawed.  Because you are insisting the dust body is a part of the living soul God created.  But if that soul can live WITHOUT that dust body, then you are mistaken.

Do you understand what I'm saying now?

If we don't NEED the dust body to still be “US”, then the dust body is not really a part of our soul, but only a protective shell encasing it.  If that same soul can live in heaven within a new spiritual body, the the dust body is not a part OF that soul.

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 07 2011,19:46)

is it the spirit that God gives to the soul that bring it live ?if yes then it only can die wen God destroy it ,NO?

Pierre,

Did you know that archaeologists have found 5000 year old honey in tombs in Egypt?  They say it is as good to eat today as it was 5000 years ago.  Apparently honey doesn't decay like everything else.

Picture our souls as that honey entombed for 5000 years.  The spirit went back to God, so we have no power to think or act.  Our bodies have long since decayed into nothing.  But here are our souls, dormant, but just as “tasty” as when we died.

All we need is for God to resupply the power of His Spirit to us, and to give our souls another body in which to live.  Of course it will be a body designed for wherever we live – a spiritual one if in heaven, an earthly one if on earth.

mike

[terraricca]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 08 2011,20:20)

Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 07 2011,19:46) is it the spirit that God gives to the soul that bring it live ?if yes then it only can die wen God destroy it ,NO? Pierre, Did you know that archaeologists have found 5000 year old honey in tombs in Egypt?  They say it is as good to eat today as it was 5000 years ago.  Apparently honey doesn't decay like everything else. Picture our souls as that honey entombed for 5000 years.  The spirit went back to God, so we have no power to think or act.  Our bodies have long since decayed into nothing.  But here are our souls, dormant, but just as “tasty” as when we died. All we need is for God to resupply the power of His Spirit to us, and to give our souls another body in which to live.  Of course it will be a body designed for wherever we live – a spiritual one if in heaven, an earthly one if on earth. mike

Mike

that s what i believe except that i believe God as not removed his spirit of our soul yet this is after judgement some will be cut of and some will recieve a body for were ever they would go (perfect one to)

Pierre

[terraricca]

Mike

yes i heard of it but did not have a chance to taste it,ha,ha,ha,

Pierre

[Ed J]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 08 2011,12:55)

Hi David, NASB © It came about as her soul was departing (for she died), that she named him Ben-oni; but his father called him Benjamin. mike

Hi Mike,

It's nice to see you quoting the (less corrupted) N.A.S. bible instead of the (more corrupted) N.I.V. bible!
Still, the “AKJV Bible” is the standard to which all other English bibles are compared;
being “the most accurate” English bible of them all!

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[mikeboll64]

Hi Ed,

The KJV renders this scripture the same as the NASB.  But I posted the latter just to bug YOU!  

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 07 2011,20:43)

Mike that s what i believe except that i believe God as not removed his spirit of our soul yet this is after judgement

Well, we're not too far off in our understandings then.

But what need would a dormant, unconscious soul have for God's spirit?

Scripture says that when we die, the spirit goes back to God.

So I don't understand why you think this.

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 07 2011,20:46)

Mike yes i heard of it but did not have a chance to taste it,ha,ha,ha, Pierre

That just amazes me! 5000 years and good as new? Wow!

[Ed J]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 08 2011,14:21)

Hi Ed, The KJV renders this scripture the same as the NASB.  But I posted the latter just to bug YOU!   mike

Hi Mike,

No, you didn't!

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[david]

Quote

And if that is the case, then your understanding of Gen 2:7 is flawed. Because you are insisting the dust body is a part of the living soul God created. But if that soul can live WITHOUT that dust body, then you are mistaken.

–Mike.

Except you keep separating the two. Adam (the man) “became” a living soul. It was not Adam's body had a soul added to it. I think if we insert the word “person” wherever you have the word “soul” we will understand this better:

“And if that is the case, then your understanding of Gen 2:7 is flawed. Because you are insisting the dust body is a part of the living [person] God created. But if that [person] can live WITHOUT that dust body, then you are mistaken.”

I am not really “insisting that the” fleshly body is part of Adam, or that my body is part of me. My body is me. I am me.
And yes, of course a person can live without their physical body if God resurrects them with a spirit body.

If Jehovah can remember the stars by name, then he can remember who you are as a person and put you back together so to speak. Nothing, no part of you has to continually exist for this to happen. Jehovah could re-create you from memory, couldn't he? If he can create a man, can he not re-create a man?

[david]

Quote

You are correct that Jesus wouldn't contradict other scriptures. And you keep saying that Matthew 10:28 is the ONLY one, but that's not accurate. What about Thessalonians?

–Mike.

Not exactly sure why you said this in this thread, but I had believed I made a careful point NOT to say that Matthew 10:28 was the ONLY scripture. If you go back and check, you should see this. (I've made that mistake before. I'm pretty sure I didn't make it this time.)

[david]

Quote

I think the JWs are only looking at ONE of the meanings of the words, instead of all of them. If not, then explain how your own first scripture, Genesis 35:18, means the whole person INCLUDING THE BODY: NASB © It came about as her soul was departing (for she died), that she named him Ben-oni; but his father called him Benjamin.

Please look at what I posted again:

LIFE AS AN INTELLIGENT PERSON
Ge 35:18; Ex 4:19; 21:23; 30:12; Jos 9:24; Jg 9:17; 12:3; 18:25; 2Ki 7:7; 2Ch 1:11; Job 2:4; 6:11; Pr 1:18; 7:23; 22:23; 25:13:Mt 6:25; 10:39; 16:25; Lu 12:20; Joh 10:15; 13:38; 15:13; Ac 20:10; Ro 16:4; Php 2:30; 1Th 2:8; Jas 1:21; 1Pe 1:22,25; 1Jo 3:16

A LIVING PERSON OR INDIVIDUAL IS A SOUL
Ge 2:7; 12:15; 14:21; 36:6; 46:15,18,22,25,26,27; Ex 1:5; 12:4,16; 16:16; Le 2:1; 4:2,27; 5:1,2,4,15,17; 6:2; 7:18,20,21,25,27; 17:10,12,1518:29; 20:6; 22:6,11; 23:29,30; 27:2; Nu 5:6; 15:27,28,30; 19:18,22; 31:35,40,46; 35:30; De10:22; 24:6,7; 1Sa 22:22; 2Sa 14:14; 2Ki 12:4; 1Ch 5:21; Ps 19:7; Pr 11:25,30; 16:24; 19:2,15; 25:25; 27:7,9; Jer 43:6; 52:29; La 3:25; Eze 27:13; Ac 2:41,43; 7:14; 27:37; Ro 13:1; 1Co 15:45; 1Pe 3:20; 2Pe 2:14

Looking at that first group, we find soul used in a way that we would use “life.”

So, the SECOND group, soul is used to mean a person. In the first group (the one you chose from) soul is used to mean the “life” of the person. Now, let's look at what you posted and try to figure out why you posted it.

It came about as her soul [life] was departing (for she died), that she named him Ben-oni; but his father called him Benjamin. (Gen 35:18)
This scripture is not one I would pick to explain this, but it is simply saying her soul (life) was leaving her. Or, in other words, she was dying.

So, I of course never said that Gen 35:18 has the “soul” meaning the whole person including the body.

[kerwin]

David,

A soul is housed in the tent of one's body.  If a body has no soul then the body does not have the breath of life.  

After all there is a Adam formed from the earth as well as a spiriitual Adam.

The soul like the spirit is spiritual in content and thus are part of the spiritual Adam.

Jesus teaches us that even though the flesh is dead the soul lives when he teaches us those that are dead yet live.

[terraricca]

Kerwin

yes, God is not the God of the dead but the living,Abraham was declared a live,

until God destroy s the soul ,the soul lives,all soul go to judgement and then ether retribution or live eternal

Pierre

[mikeboll64]

Quote (david @ Mar. 08 2011,00:27)

Quote You are correct that Jesus wouldn't contradict other scriptures.  And you keep saying that Matthew 10:28 is the ONLY one, but that's not accurate.  What about Thessalonians? –Mike. Not exactly sure why you said this in this thread, but I had believed I made a careful point NOT to say that Matthew 10:28 was the ONLY scripture.  If you go back and check, you should see this.  (I've made that mistake before.  I'm pretty sure I didn't make it this time.)

Hi David,

From page 16:

Quote

Hi Mike. The truthful answer is, not greatly. Matthew 10:28 is literally the one scripture that doesn't fit in with our definition of “soul.”

From page 18:

Quote

That's why that one and only one verse, the meaning has to be understood as “life prospects” or “future life” rather than simply as “life” as it is so often used

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but 1 Thessalonians 5:23 also clearly mentions the soul as separate from the body. And it is to that which I refer when I ask why “only one”?

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (david @ Mar. 08 2011,00:34)

It came about as her soul [life] was departing (for she died), that she named him Ben-oni; but his father called him Benjamin. (Gen 35:18) This scripture is not one I would pick to explain this, but it is simply saying her soul (life) was leaving her.  Or, in other words, she was dying.

David,

You're not seeing it.  WHO was the life leaving?  You can't say her soul is leaving HER, for that “HER”, according to you, IS her soul.  Can SHE leave HERSELF?

If the “life” LEFT HER, then what's left?  A dead body?  Where did that “life” go?  If that “life” could LEAVE her body, then that “life” was not a part of that body, but a separate thing all along, right?

Do you see it now?

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (david @ Mar. 08 2011,00:25)

I am not really “insisting that the” fleshly body is part of Adam, or that my body is part of me. My body is me. I am me. And yes, of course a person can live without their physical body if God resurrects them with a spirit body.

If they can live without it, then it is not “them”.

mike

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