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Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 25 2009,14:50) Hi KW,
There would be no need for IF otherwise.
Scripture does not waste words.
That is my point.Kerwin………remember when Paul said with his mind he served the laws of GOD but with his body the law of sin and death and he considered that to be a wretched state to be in. Maybe because of our past corruption our body's remain corrupted and that is why we need a covering by the blood of Jesus at this time. “for this corruption must put on incorruption” maybe that has not completely happened yet. But i do agree me should be overcoming sins in our lives, but the propensity still seems to exist, but one thing i found out is the older you get and the weaker you get the less sin has a grip on you. Maybe what peter said is true, he who has suffers in the flesh has ceased to sin,. But we would not need a covering if we were completely sinless at this time. We all hope for that righteousness to come that will deliver us from this bondage of corruption. We must reside in FAITH in our GOD our Deliverer.
peace and love to you and yours………………………gene
G,
Indeed incorruption as in the heavenly body must cover the corruptible flesh.
You confuse mind and body as your mind needs to be aligned with scripture.Rom12
Gene wrote:
Quote remember when Paul said with his mind he served the laws of GOD but with his body the law of sin and death and he considered that to be a wretched state to be in.
I do remember that and I also remember that Peter instructs us that some of Paul’s writing can be difficult to understand. Nick has a good point when he writes that Romans 12 is pertenant to the issue for is it not written:
Romans 12:1-2(KJV) reads:
Quote I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
As you can see we are called to present out bodies as a holy sacrifice unto God as well as to renew our mind in the image of Jesus the King.
Still let’s examine the passage you write of.
Romans 7:21-25(KJV) reads:
Quote I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
It certainly sounds to me like Paul is speaking of the law or rather of two different laws. The first law is the God’s law and the second law is the law of sin and death. God’s law is obviously the commandments of God that we see written in the Law of Mosses and elsewhere while the law of sin and death is Satan’s commands. We know from other scripture that Paul was a sincere Jew, a member of the Sect of Pharisees and that he strove mightily to adhere to God’s law at that time. This tells us that Paul, whose righteousness was equal to the righteousness of the Pharisees, did in his mind and inner being want to do God’s will. We are also told that at that time Paul despite having the law of God in his mind persecuted the Christians and did other evil showing that the law of sin and death was at work in his members. Scripture tells us that he was rescued from that sad and dreadful state by God through Jesus the Anointed One, who is our King. So if he was rescued from that state how could he be in it any longer once he entered the new covenant? If a drowning man is rescued then how can he still be drowning. Isn’t that an incomplete rescue? Does Jesus do incomplete rescues?
Gene wrote:
Quote Maybe what peter said is true, he who has suffers in the flesh has ceased to sin,
1 Peter 4:1(KJV) reads:
Quote Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
Jesus died through his suffering. Paul said much the same thing in his letter to the Romans.
Romans 6:1-11(KJV) reads:
Quote What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Gene wrote:
Quote But we would not need a covering if we were completely sinless at this time.
You misunderstand the covering which is the Spirit of God. The grace of God is not meant to hide our sins from God and thus turn His grace into an excuse to sin. It instead meant to save us from our sinful desires so that we sin no longer and thus claim the goal of true righteousness and holiness to which God calls us. Do you remember what the angel said at the time of Jesus’ conception?
Matthew 1:21(KJV) reads:
Quote And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Kerwin……….So you are saying the Blood of Christ does not cover your sins then right, and we really don't have and advocate with the Father , nor a propitiation for our sins. And there is no covering for us. WE some how are perfected while we are here now right. So we now have no sins and are already perfected, in your theology. I do not find that in scripture or by the words of John or Paul. And I or No one has said the Grace of GOD is to hide our sins from GOD, don't know where you got that from it was not me. I have a suggestion for you go and see what the word (LAW) Means. Law as Paul understood it was (forced compliance) and said NO FLESH shall be justified by (WORKS OF LAW). But you present as we are Justified by it. YOUR picture is of SELF SALVATION. Which you now or never in the flesh shall attain too.
Rom 7:20-24…..> Now if i do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a Law, that, when I would good, evil is present with me. For i delight in the Law of GOD after the inward man But i see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which us in my members. O wretched man that i am ! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Now what part of that do you not understand Kerwin.
peace and love to you and yours……………gene
G,
All men are not saved by the blood of Christ.
Faith unto obedience is required.Romans 3:25
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;For us who have obeyed.
Romans 5:9
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.1 Corinthians 10:16
The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?Nick…….so you are of the opinion that Christ did Not die for the sins of the world then right, and it does not say , God has concluded (ALL) under sin that He might have mercy on (ALL). right, nor for God so loved the (WORLD) that he sent His only begotten son that who so ever believes on Him should not parish.
1 Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours (ONLY) but also for the sins of the (WHOLE WORLD).
What Part of that you don't understand Nick.
peace and love to you……………….gene
G,
He died for the sins of the world.
The condition of God is that men come to him.
Through him cleansing forgiveness and empowerment can be given.Come
G,
This supposed amnesty for all men you preach makes a mockery of the suffering and death of the saviour. Stop tickling ears and preach the call of God unto reconciliation.To All,
This is a testimony of the nature of the God of Jesus and this testimony is true.
Ezekiel 33:12-20(KJV) reads
Quote Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth. When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it. Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right; If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die. None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live. Yet the children of thy people say, The way of the Lord is not equal: but as for them, their way is not equal. When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby. But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby. Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. O ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after his ways.
I assure you God does not change like shifting sand but is eternally righteous. What God wanted of His people in the time of Ezekiel He still wants today. I refuse to stamp on the sacrifice of Jesus and treat it like an unholy thing by turning it into a cover for wickedness.
Do you believe in the Holy Spirit because if you do then you believe.
Galatians 5:16(KJV) reads:
Quote This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
And if you believe what is written then you believe that if you live by the Spirit you do not sin even though you tempted as any other human being is tempted. If you do walk in the Spirit as you called to then God will forget the sins which have gone before even as he told the people of Ezekiel’s time He would. Now If you sin, which is a sign you have stopped walking by the Spirit, then do not hide it but rather confess your sin as God will cleanse you of the unrighteousness so you can walk by the Spirit once more. I assure you in order to obtain the true righteousness and holiness that is like God’s you must believe it is possible and if you do not believe it is possible then you do not believe in the Holy Spirit.
Mark 10:26-27(KJV) reads:
Quote And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved? And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 26 2009,16:40) Hi KW,
I am pleased God is not as scrupulous as men.
encarta.msn.com definition of
scrupulous using Encarta® World English Dictionary [North American Edition] © & (P)2009 Microsoft Corporation reads:Quote 1. having moral integrity: having or showing careful regard for what is morally right
He was too scrupulous to falsify even the slightest detail.2. very precise: rigorously precise or thorough
scrupulous cleanlinessWhat definition are you using for scrupulous? Do you mean he is more or less scrupulous than man?
Kerwin………Make sure you don't over read where it says “when he (trusts) in (HIS OWN) righteousness, (and commit iniquity) None of (HIS) , HIS righteousness shall be remembered. THERE IN LIES THE PITFALL. Remember GOD said He looked for (ONE righteous man and could find NOT ONE> Even Jesus said “Why do you call me GOOD there is none GOOD except GOD.” GOD reckons us righteous by our Faith in HIM, as he did Abraham, not that We or Abraham (ARE) righteous but it is (RECKONED TO US> That is why it says the righteous live by FAITH. And please don't conclude by this i am condoning SIN that is a lie to think that. IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………………..gene
Gene wrote:
Quote Make sure you don't over read where it says “when he (trusts) in (HIS OWN) righteousness, (and commit iniquity) None of (HIS) , HIS righteousness shall be remembered.
A man that trusts in his own righteousness would say I am a good man I can do evil and God will forgive me.
Gene wrote:
Quote Remember GOD said He looked for (ONE righteous man and could find NOT ONE
I remember it and I also remember it was said to those under the law but it is not true about those who walk according to the Spirit because they are not under the law and their righteousness comes from God.
Gene wrote:
Quote Even Jesus said “Why do you call me GOOD there is none GOOD except GOD.”
And yet Jesus is known not to sin even though he is tempted even as we are.
Gene wrote:
Quote GOD reckons us righteous by our Faith in HIM, as he did Abraham, not that We or Abraham (ARE) righteous but it is (RECKONED TO US> That is why it says the righteous live by FAITH.
That is why the righteous will believe that God can and will stop them from sinning through faith in Jesus is the King of everything in heaven and earth. The promise of righteousness they put their faith in is fulfilled by walking according to the Holy Spirit.
Gene wrote:
Quote And please don't conclude by this i am condoning SIN that is a lie to think that.
If you choose to say “it is alright to sin because God will forgive you” then yes you are condoning sin. Again and again that is what I seem to hear from you. You or others can tell those whose itching ears want to hear such nonsense but as for me I will seek the Lord.
Kerwin…..First of all you can't produce (ONE) post where I said it OK to SIN. And Lying on a brother is also a SIN, that needs to be repented of. IMO.
Secondly, your assumption of what a Self righteous man (is), is in great error, A self righteous person would never say its all right to sin or He would know He was not righteous , NO, it those who trust that they (ARE) righteous, and in that way they (ARE) committing an INIQUITY< AS Ezk 33:12-20 shows.
Luk 18:10…> Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican, The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, GOD, I thank thee, that (I) am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven but smote upon his breast, saying GOD be merciful to me (A SINNER). I tell you, this man (the sinner),went down to his house (JUSTIFIED), rather than the other: for every one that exults himself shall be abased; and he that humbles himself shall be exalted.
It would do all of US ALL GOOD to not FORGET THIS. IMO
An iniquity is a false sense of their righteous works, as for instances “when the son of man come many will come unto Him and say Lord in your name we have done all these (GOOD) works, and notice Jesus did not deny that they did (GOOD) WORKS , but what does He say unto them (DEPART FROM ME (YOU WORKER) of Iniquity, I never know you. YOUR problem is you don't understand what an INIQUITY (IS)….Kerwin it would do you good to conceder this more brother.
peace and love to you and yours…………….gene
Gene wrote:
Quote First of all you can't produce (ONE) post where I said it OK to SIN. And Lying on a brother is also a SIN, that needs to be repented of. IMO.
I figure you are deceived and so deceiving others for many of your posts reek with the belief that “sin is OK“. You are here arguing that Jesus lied and thus one cannot be truly freed from slavery to sin since according to you scripture declares all humans must sin. I assure you if you are freed from sin you no longer sin because anyone who sins submits themselves to serving sin and if they do not repent and confess their sins God will bind them to sin once more. Our goal is therefore to be completely free of sin and it is only the power of God that we can and will reach that goal but in order to do so we must believe.
Luke 9:62(KJV) reads:
Quote And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.
Gene wrote:
Quote Secondly, your assumption of what a Self righteous man (is), is in great error, A self righteous person would never say its all right to sin or He would know He was not righteous , NO, it those who trust that they (ARE) righteous, and in that way they (ARE) committing an INIQUITY< AS Ezk 33:12-20 shows.
That is not what Ezekiel states. He clearly states if you are a righteous man and choose to change your ways and do what is evil then God will forget your righteous deeds and punish you for your wickedness. Still you bring up an interesting scripture in Luke 18:10 which I expand when examining it to verses 9-14.
Luke 10:9-14(KJV) reads:
Quote And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
Do you really think the Pharisees was righteous and without sin or did he rather perceive of himself as righteous even though he might know he sinned. So isn’t this Pharisee concealing his sins and boasting about his “good” works? So I agree that he is trying to use those “good” works as justification for the evil he continues to do instead of repenting of his sins and confessing them so that God will cleanse him of all unrighteousness. The tax collector is honest in that he admits that he sins despite whatever good deeds he may also do.
Gene wrote:
Quote YOUR problem is you don't understand what an INIQUITY (IS)
Iniquity is any violation of the law of love your neighbor and yourself as God intends. You on the other hand seem to be ignorant that the people have always been called and still are called to be righteous as God is righteous.
Quote (kerwin @ April 27 2009,02:53) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 26 2009,16:40) Hi KW,
I am pleased God is not as scrupulous as men.
encarta.msn.com definition of
scrupulous using Encarta® World English Dictionary [North American Edition] © & (P)2009 Microsoft Corporation reads:Quote 1. having moral integrity: having or showing careful regard for what is morally right
He was too scrupulous to falsify even the slightest detail.2. very precise: rigorously precise or thorough
scrupulous cleanlinessWhat definition are you using for scrupulous? Do you mean he is more or less scrupulous than man?
Hi KW,
Self perfectionism is a heavy and impossible burden.
Man is unaware of all his sin even when he is enlightened.
Studying our navels in search of fault distacts from our service.
Thank God the work of sanctification is that of the Spirit of God within us.Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 26 2009,16:36) Quote (kerwin @ April 27 2009,02:53) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 26 2009,16:40) Hi KW,
I am pleased God is not as scrupulous as men.
encarta.msn.com definition of
scrupulous using Encarta® World English Dictionary [North American Edition] © & (P)2009 Microsoft Corporation reads:Quote 1. having moral integrity: having or showing careful regard for what is morally right
He was too scrupulous to falsify even the slightest detail.2. very precise: rigorously precise or thorough
scrupulous cleanlinessWhat definition are you using for scrupulous? Do you mean he is more or less scrupulous than man?
Hi KW,
Self perfectionism is a heavy and impossible burden.
Man is unaware of all his sin even when he is enlightened.
Studying our navels in search of fault distacts from our service.
Thank God the work of sanctification is that of the Spirit of God within us.
Good post Nick.Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 27 2009,03:36) Quote (kerwin @ April 27 2009,02:53) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 26 2009,16:40) Hi KW,
I am pleased God is not as scrupulous as men.
encarta.msn.com definition of
scrupulous using Encarta® World English Dictionary [North American Edition] © & (P)2009 Microsoft Corporation reads:Quote 1. having moral integrity: having or showing careful regard for what is morally right
He was too scrupulous to falsify even the slightest detail.2. very precise: rigorously precise or thorough
scrupulous cleanlinessWhat definition are you using for scrupulous? Do you mean he is more or less scrupulous than man?
Hi KW,
Self perfectionism is a heavy and impossible burden.
Man is unaware of all his sin even when he is enlightened.
Studying our navels in search of fault distacts from our service.
Thank God the work of sanctification is that of the Spirit of God within us.
I wrote to Gene about a certain Pharisee spoken of in Luke 10. I believe the example he and the taxpayer present is relevant. I say this because you seem to be saying the Pharisee was right and the taxpayer was wrong.It is clear from Scripture that God expects us to aim for perfectionism though it is also clear that He is patient with us in our striving to reach that goal as long as we are sincere in striving for it. Still He does not expect us to do it on our own but states He will do it for us if we believe.
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