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Hi Rudy.
Quote Quote (Rudy @ May 21 2006,03:01)
All power is All power, so then Christ if not God, who is over us?That would mean God is NOT in control, Jesus is. Because ALL POWER is HIS (Jesus) 'till His enemies are His footstool, so apparently God the Father has no power right now and as the song says, “God is in control…” is incorrect and others who deny the deity of Christ there is NO God over us at this moment.
Good point Rudy. Amen.
Yet, he would not have that power if God didn't give it to him. Doesn't scripture say this? (mat 28:18)
Quote All power is All power, so then Christ if not God, who is over us?
What does that mean? All power is all power. Both Jesus and God are “over us.” But God is over Jesus.Quote That would mean God is NOT in control, Jesus is. Because ALL POWER is HIS (Jesus) 'till His enemies are His footstool, so apparently God the Father has no power right now and as the song says
You're reasoning is highly illogical. Do you have any power? Apparently not, according to the way you reason.
What scripture are you quoting anyway, about “all power is his till his enemies ….”MATTHEW 11:27
“All things have been delivered to me by my Father,PHILIPPIANS 2:9
“For this very reason also God exalted him to a superior positionMATTHEW 28:18
“And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been GIVEN ME in heaven and on the earth.” (BY WHOM?)Quote All power is All power, so then Christ if not God, who is over us? That would mean God is NOT in control, Jesus is. Because ALL POWER is HIS (Jesus) 'till His enemies are His footstool, so apparently God the Father has no power right now and as the song says, “God is in control…” is incorrect and others who deny the deity of Christ there is NO God over us at this moment.
None of this reasoning makes sense to me, at all. I don't really even understand what you're trying to say.david
Hi David,
Quote But being called “almighty” denotes that Jehovah isn't limited in his might, whereas someone that is mighty, is.
These are your words David.Quote What I was saying, which you should understand (I used an example) was that if someone is described as 'mighty,' then they are mighty. They have great power and strength. Do they have infinite power and strength? Well they may if they happen to be so mighty that they are almighty. But this doesn't happen often enough to believe that someone is almighty unless specified. Jehovah is referred to as mighty AND almighty. Clearly, he does not only have great power and strength, but has unlimited power.
David, outside of Isaiah 10:20, Jeremiah 32:18 and Isaiah 9:6 can you show me a scripture where 'El Gibbor' is used? If so, is it applied to either a man or angel, or any being of lower ontology that the Almighty? The burden of proof is firmly on you to show me that “Mighty God” denotes lesser Deity. Given that this specific appellation is never applied to a man or angel, BUT IS applied to The Most High God YHWH, I think you have your work cut out for you.Also, can you prove to me beyond all doubt that in all 43 instances where “Almighty” is applied to God, that it refers exclusively to The Father?
Blessings
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 21 2006,07:43) Hi Is 1.18,
Even if Jesus was a great God, who has a God, then how does that change anything?
Isaiah 43:10,11
10Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. 11I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.Isaiah 44:6,8
6Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. 7And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them. 8Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.Isaiah 45:5,14,18,21,22
5I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:…
14Thus saith the LORD, The labour of Egypt, and merchandise of Ethiopia and of the Sabeans, men of stature, shall come over unto thee, and they shall be thine: they shall come after thee; in chains they shall come over, and they shall fall down unto thee, they shall make supplication unto thee, saying, Surely God is in thee; and there is none else, there is no God…
18For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else….
21Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me….. 22Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.Isaiah 46:9
Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,James 2:19
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.Also see: Deu 4:35, 39; 32:39, 2Sa 22:32, Isa 37:20; Joh 5:44; Rom 3:30; 16:27; Gal 3:20; 1 Cr 8:4-6; 1 Ti 1:17, 2:5; Jam 2:19; Jud 1:25…..
Only One God. There can't be an 'Almighty God' with a 'Mighty God' beside Him, because Scripture is unambiguous in declaring there is only One God. There even isn't any others like God…..and Yet Yahshua is unequivically called God in Scripture, many times….
Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 21 2006,06:24) Hi Artizan007, Daniel 7:13-14
13I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.Matthew 11:27
All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.and;
Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.and;
Ephesians 1:21-22
21[Christ, vs. 20]far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.
22And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church.
Hi Is 1.18,
If any blessing in scripture is given from one who has to one who has not then the first is greater.
Heb 7.7
“But without any doubt
the LESSER
is blessed by
the GREATER”Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 21 2006,07:57) The Spirit of God Himself is higher than Yeshua .
John 16:7 & 14
7″But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.….14“He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.Quote The burden of proof is firmly on you to show me that “Mighty God” denotes lesser Deity.
It denotes lesser “might”
A quick peak at any dictionary will prove that.Quote Hi David,
Quote
But being called “almighty” denotes that Jehovah isn't limited in his might, whereas someone that is mighty, is.These are your words David.
OK, and if you were confused by them, I thought I clarified in my last two posts. I re-worded it for you, basically saying:
'But being called “almighty” denotes that Jehovah isn't limited in his might, whereas someone that is mighty (and not also referred to as “Almighty”), is.'Quote David, outside of Isaiah 10:20, Jeremiah 32:18 and Isaiah 9:6 can you show me a scripture where 'El Gibbor' is used?
There's also the ´El Shad·dai´ [God Almighty] as opposed to the El Gib·bohr´, “Mighty God.”
No, there are no scriptures where humans are referred to as Mighty God.Quote If so, is it applied to either a man or angel, or any being of lower ontology that the Almighty? Both the word “God” and the word “mighty” are referred to humans. The term Almighty isn't.
The term “almighty” is reserved for the one and only who fits that description.Quote Given that this specific appellation is never applied to a man or angel, BUT IS applied to The Most High God YHWH, I think you have your work cut out for you. I think you have your work cut out for you. You have the impossible task of changing all the dictionaries of the world. You'd better get started. It may take a while.
Quote Also, can you prove to me beyond all doubt that in all 43 instances where “Almighty” is applied to God, that it refers exclusively to The Father? No, I can't prove anything to you. But to most people, I could prove it in about 43 minutes. Go those references. Pick out the ones that you believe do not refer to Jehovah. I believe it is you who will have a tough time with this.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 21 2006,08:36) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 21 2006,07:57) The Spirit of God Himself is higher than Yeshua .
John 16:7 & 14
7″But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.….14“He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.
Hi Is 1.18,
You have ignored the scripture in Hebrews relating to the Greater blessing the Lesser.Jesus said in Jn 7.39f, quoting Is 12.3
” He who believes in me, as the scripture said,
'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water'
But this he spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive;For the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified”He had to return to heaven to be glorified before his disciples could share the Spirit God had shared with him.
Yes he said he would send the Spirit, and it also says in
Jn 14 about the Father
“I will ask the Father and He will give you another helper..” and v 26
“but the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name..”
and in Jn 15
“When the helper comes,whom I will send you from the Father, that is the Spirit of Truth THAT PROCEEDS FROM THE FATHER,..”They shared in the Spirit of God just as we can.
Thus Jesus could say in Jn 14.23
“…We will come to him and make Our abode with Him”Okay. I guess weve now establised that:
1. There is no scriptual evidence that the appellation 'Mighty God' (El Gibbor) denotes lesser deity.
2. You cannot prove beyond all doubt that in all 43 instances where “Almighty” is applied to God, that it refers exclusively to The Father.
Thank you David.
BlessingsWell NH, since there is only One true God, all other gods are false Gods. That would, of course, include Satan….
Good night.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 22 2006,06:00) Well NH, since there is only One true God, all other gods are false Gods. That would, of course, include Satan…. Good night.
Good day:
Not all other gods are false like idols as you assume Is 1:18.
First off scripture is clear that there is only one true God and that is not Jesus Christ. Some other gods that are mentioned in scripture are gods, but they are not the original God, they are images. So even if they are legitimate, they are not the original God.
There really is only one true God the Father. If you want to argue that, then your argument is not with me but Paul who wrote these words:
1 Corinthians 8:5-6 (English-NIV)
5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”),
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.Can scripture be more clear than this?
You have to be deceived to not believe these simple scriptures.John 17:3 (English-NIV)
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.Hello. That last scripture was a clanger wasn't it Is 1:18. Your arguments mean very little as long as you ignore and contradict such scriptures. Your ontological arguments are no good if they contradict scripture. We like to read and learn from scripture Is 1:18, not the fables and vain imaginations of men.
Next we have others who are called gods/theos/elohim/… who are not false. See a brief list below:
The Father (One true God as mentioned)
————————–
Ephesians 1:3 (English-NIV)
Praise be to the God (theos) and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.Jesus
——
John 20:28-29 (English-NIV)
28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God! (theos)”
29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”Man
—–
John 10:34 (English-NIV)
Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, `I have said you are gods (theos)'Man
—–
Psalms 82:6 (English-NIV)
“I said, `You are “gods” (Elohim); you are all sons of the Most High.'Jesus even included himself when he said we are gods. So if we are false then so must he be. Also, take a look at the reason why we are called gods. It is not because we are false, but because the word of God came to us.
John 10:34-40
35 If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken—
36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'?AND
Angels too, if the below scripture is a quote. If not then it is probably referring to men again.
——-
Psalm 97:7
All who worship images are put to shame, those who boast in idols; worship him, all you gods (Elohim)!Hebrews 1:6
And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,
“Let all God's angels worship him.”Hi Is 1.18,
The way of Jesus starts with Faith in God
Heb 11.6
“…for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him”But then Faith must include the Son of God.
1Jn 4.15
“Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God”Do you yet confess with Jesus and Paul and Peter and Martha and John and John the Baptist and God Himself that Jesus is the Son of God?
It is vital because
1Jn 5.11 says
“And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son”Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 21 2006,01:54) What is in contention, David, is the designation “Mighty God” (Gibbor El). If this is applied to YHWH, how can it possibly denote a lesser category of being? Obviously it can't.
Hi Is 1.18
El Gibbor is applied to men.
In fact, it is applied in plural to a group of mighty men in Ezek 32:21 … plural 'el gibbors'
(Translated The strong among the mighty in the KJV.
Translated The mighty chiefs in the RSV.)Now there is solely one Almighty GOD.
So it can't be speaking of Almighty GODHence, 'el gibbor' is most definitely applied to a lessor category i.e. men … and that includes Christ.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 21 2006,08:17) … outside of Isaiah 10:20, Jeremiah 32:18 and Isaiah 9:6 can you show me a scripture where 'El Gibbor' is used? If so, is it applied to either a man or angel, or any being of lower ontology that the Almighty?
Ezek 32:21
where the same hebrew phrase in plural is used!Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 19 2006,22:27) I don't think The Son is “higher” than the Father, or vise versa, in their substance/nature/essence…..would I be arguing for ontological Co equality if I thought that the Son was a higher class of being than the Father?? Hardly. 'Elyon' is a name of God – Highest One. This is a fact.
Hi Is 1:18,Can I ask you how you see that The Father and The Son are the same ONE God? (I know you believe in Three but for comparison sake I am only using the two)
How can the Father be prayed to up in heaven, whilst the Son is here on earth and yet they are ONE God. Heaven/Earth=1?… They were heard talking to each other, ie: Father who art in heaven, and My beloved Son in whom I am well pleased…
So when you stand before them on Judgement day and you see the thrones and Jesus sitting at the right hand of the Father – you will say I worship you both as ONE God. How bizzare that would be.
Even more confusing is that same God splits or does not split for you cannot separate the substance so not too sure what he did or how he came to be on earth, but is the same God is in two places yet ONE God. My mind cannot get around that…(two wills yet one will for they cannot be separated – not [my] will but [yours] be done.)
Then it gets even more complicated because the Son remains fully God and is yet fully man, mystery of mysteries… this Trinity God – this three in one God has now become a “three Persons in one God” and a “one in two persons God/Man” yet still is the ONE God… Must be a bizarre looking being.
Stranger still, the one God in Heaven is referred directly to as God, the Father, never once as 'directly stated; does it say God, the Son nor for that matter the HS. In your opinion why is that… yet they are equal in status…
How easy this would have been in your opinion to simply define the doctrine of God so fought over or did he leave it up to us to define over time. If God knows all things and surely would be able to see, at least from the past, how humanity acts then why does he not state this clearly and in plain language for us. If he wanted us to believe he was a Triune God why state it clearly in one or two places as a witness that God is really “three persons” in ONE God.
It is not a easy concept to grasp concept… some written proof would be nice. Clear, not infurred.
I personally cannot see the point of the whole cover up, why not say we are three Gods for in reality, if you believe the Trinity, that is what they are… three not one… if you pray Dear Father, da da da, HS I ask you for wisdom, in Jesus name – Amen. You have addressed three Beings, if not then you state a name but really there is only one, so your words are in vain… why not direct all your prayers to GOD and not mess around with the three names… go straight to the source.
That is how I see it I guess, to me that is three persons I would be addressing not the ONE God you speak of. It makes a mockery of language to say that they are ONE when really you are addressing three distinct persons and three persons cannot be ONE. Unless God is the family name… Like Smith would be a family name for Bob and John. Two brothers one Family name. Two individual persons, one Smith family… is that what you mean.
I go to a pentecostal church… have grown up in it but not always seen things according to the way they teach it but the day may come when I will have to find something else.
Here are parts of two songs we sang tonight:,
Jesus you are God alone, my only Saviour… God of all, reign over all the earth. Then they sing in another song, God alone your Love remains – the song is about the Father… one of the very few about the Father… (now if that is not confusing – I dont know) Who is God alone, two persons do not fit this language… never mind three and where in the bible is Jesus stated as God Alone? They dont say this of the HS as of yet, the doctrine of the HS has not developed that far… i guess it will in time – if left to theologians.
Well there in lies my dilema… I cannot believe in a theory that is so confusing and leaves me guessing.
I do enjoy reading your posts and they do make me think. I appreciate the time you spend in clarifying your position
Take care
Adam Pastor,
Eze 32:21 (KJV)
The strong among the mighty [1368] shall speak to him out of the midst of hell with them that help him: they are gone down they lie uncircumcised slain by the sword.From Strongs:
H1368
גּבּר גּבּור
gibbôr gibbôr
ghib-bore', ghib-bore'
Intensive from the same as H1397; powerful; by implication warrior, tyrant: – champion, chief, X excel, giant, man, mighty (man, one), strong (man), valiant man.I'm looking for scripture outside of Isaiah 10:20, Jeremiah 32:18 and Isaiah 9:6 where the specific appellation 'el gibbor' is used and applied to men or angels. If you find one, let me know.
Atrizan,
You don't as for much, do you……
I have half written posts for Malcolm and Sammo to finish, so you'll need to give me some time.God's Blessings
Aren't the Father and Son ONE in Spirit as we Should be.
Joh 17:22 And the glory which you have given to me I have given to them, so that they may be one even as we are one;
Quite so kenrch,
The Son is the mediator between God and man. He is the intermediary and intercessor and advocate for us and His Father. All things come to us from the Father through him. And our prayers go to the Father through him too.This is a blow of course to those who say he is part of God because a mediator needs to be separate from either party to be able to do his job effectively.
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