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Quote Quote Jesus showed them His hands and His feet and said “See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.” He was telling them that He was not a Spirit but was FLESH and BONE. I addressed this and gave full explanation to you.
Spirit can manifest into flesh. Is capable of changing into any form if they wish. Men cannot see spirit. Christ had to manifest into flesh to show it was really him and not a ghost and so they could see him.Journey,
You said that Christ had to manifest into flesh to show it was really him and not a ghost and so they could see him. However, the word translated is not 'ghost', but 'spirit', so the correct rendering would be that Christ showed them that He was not spirit. Jesus said to touch him and feel his hands his feet, that it is really him, not a spirit. Are we to believe this.. are we to believe that Jesus really was risen from the dead.. or are we to believe that He was only a spirit. Why do so many people today believe anything but what it actually says? If the book is written in symbols such as Revelation, then the symbols need to be interpreted with the spirit of truth, and only as revealed in it's time, no prophecy of scripture is a matter of ones own interpretation. BUT — When it is clearly written such as those words of Jesus, or those words of Peter, then it has to be believed, as it is.
pneuma: wind, breathe, spirit
http://biblos.com/luke/24-39.htmSo Jesus is not only spirit, He has a resurrected body, of flesh and bone. He is CHANGED. He can do things which we cannot do, and though He is like an Angel, He is not an Angel because He is man. John says (1John 3:2) “Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is“.
Quote (journey42 @ May 02 2013,19:02) Quote (2besee @ May 02 2013,01:23) Quote Journey, continue to read what it says, please. Hebrews 11.
[8] By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place which he was to receive as an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was to go.
2BesseYes all is accomplished by faith. That is the no. 1 main ingredient. Complete trust in our Father. I do not deny that.
These scriptures make us focus on the word FAITH. As we read, we keep seeing faith, faith, faith, thinking & learning along those lines, …but there is something else hidden in those very same verse that only the holy spirit can reveal to us. It doesn't come from a dream or a vision, it comes from the Word itself. I can only steer you to it, but I can't make you see it.
[8] By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place which he was to receive as an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was to go.
If you trace the steps of Abrahams footsteps from his journey right from the beginning to the end, then you will see that he traveled the exact boundaries of the kingdom that will be set up during the millennium. This is why it has boundaries. Abraham will have his salvation. Abraham was great in the Lord's eyes because of his faith, but God said Abraham didn't even realise where his steps were going, and God said that he promised Abraham that he will receive this land as an inheritance. The very land where his feet walked..
There is a spiritual land called Zion, where we dwell spiritually, that means to worship God in the spirit, and follow his laws, and when we come into God's world, we are with him, and he is with us. He is our comfort, and our shield and our hope.
And we all desire a better place to actually live, than to be here, a place where God will take charge, rule in righteousness, take care of our oppressors,
and we all yearn to be a part of that, to be involved, in a land with no evil, we don't belong here, we want to go home, to this special place that's ours only. Our inheritance.but….first, prophecy must be fulfilled and go in the order God wants it.
And I've been showing and showing and showing you that because Israel have not obeyed, that salvation will go out to the gentiles. The gentiles will inherit the kingdom FIRST. The kingdom is not just a little piece of land with boundaries, but all that belongs to God. The whole heavens, the universe, earth, everything. There is no boundaries there. We will receive this promise and inherit the kingdom at the last trump. We are then part of God's heavenly host. Able to go anywhere and everywhere just like the angels.And because of Israel's disbelief, mercy was shown to us gentiles who believe…which means that we receive the promise FIRST.
This promise is to be raised in the first resurrection and be caught up with Christ. To conquer death by being made immortal. Changed to spirit like our Lord Jesus whom God raised from the dead and inherit everything that belongs to our Father in heaven.But the other promise, is that Israel whom God first called, will be shown mercy also after this is accomplished. After the fulness of the gentiles come in at the first resurrection. Mercy is mercy, it is not based on works. It is God's decision to bring Israel back in.
Israel will not enter the kingdom the same way the gentiles will. We made a choice. We chose which way to go. The gentiles have already inherited the kingdom and everything else for they are made immortal now.
But Israel now are chosen by God and have to learn Christ. We already know Christ, but they don't, and everyone has to come through Christ before they are granted salvation. They have only known the old laws and commandments, but now there is an even better one. The new covenant which they formerly did not even recognise in order to accept, will be established with them again, but to them this will be the first time it's established. and this time they will understand and accept.Ezekiel 16:60 Nevertheless I will remember my covenant with thee in the days of thy youth, and I will establish unto thee an everlasting covenant.
God knew from the beginning that Israel would not accept the new covenant, but the verse above, shows us that this covenant will be established and everlasting.
So because they are flesh, they need a fleshly kingdom to live. They still have to eat, sleep, etc, so they will need to grow food, and have beds, and houses to live in, but the reason they are here is to come close to Christ and be taught of him. They will live in a real city, and because God's laws are there, it's a city that comes down from heaven. Not the actual city, but God's righteous laws and ways of governing come from heaven. God's is still in heaven whilst this is going on. Christ will be here on earth to govern that city and his saints will be his helpers.
Journey, take another look, please.
Hebrews 11.
[8] By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place which he was to receive as an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was to go.
[9] By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise.
[10] For he looked forward to the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.[11] By faith Sarah herself received power to conceive, even when she was past the age, since she considered him faithful who had promised.
[12] Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born descendants as many as the stars of heaven and as the innumerable grains of sand by the seashore.[13] These all died in faith, not having received what was promised, but having seen it and greeted it from afar,
and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.[14]For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland.
[15] If they had been thinking of that land from which they had gone out, they would have had opportunity to return.
[16] But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city.That means exactly what it says.
I would say more but, I will later.
2nd Peter 3
[9] The Lord is not slow about his promise as some count slowness, but is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
[10] But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a loud noise, and the elements will be dissolved with fire, and the earth and the works that are upon it will be burned up.[11] Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of persons ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness,
[12] waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be kindled and dissolved, and the elements will melt with fire!
[13] But according to his promise we wait for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
[14]Therefore, beloved, since you wait for these, be zealous to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace.
What was Peter waiting for?
Quote (Wakeup @ May 02 2013,20:05) Quote (Resting @ May 02 2013,18:15) Quote (Wakeup @ May 02 2013,14:59) Quote (Resting @ May 02 2013,10:08) Quote (journey42 @ May 01 2013,21:55) Quote
Also, Jesus vanished into thin air when he appeared to the apostles. Does flesh do this or spirit?Resurrected flesh does.
Jesus is now a spiritual body , not a spirit.
Jesus did not necessarily vanish, only removed.
Jesus said He is not a spirit.
Luk 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Luk 24:51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.
Res.
Hi resting.I have a question:
Do angels also have to be carried up and down everytime they appear and disappear?
wakeup.
No, but they do go up and down and Jesus is a resurrected man, not an angel.Res.
Resting.I have one more question:
Are you saying that jesus is less in existence than the angels?
Since he is flesh like us,and the angels are spirit?wakeup.
No.Jesus was made a little lower than the angels in being a mortal man but by birth right was born higher than the angels but his substance as well is now higher than any angel.
While we can say that God and angels appeared as man, the truth is that man is made in the image of God and Jesus the express image of God as all in the end shall be also.
God is spirit, but man is spiritual not spirit , but the life of his being in the resurrection is the Spirit, having all the attributes of God in them.
All that is designed for man that is, because we do not know anything more than man can know, even then, and Jesus does not know everything even as He is now, unless His Father tells Him.
To be filled with the fulness of God, does not mean everything God is, does it.
God Himself being one person is greater than we can even think or imagine.
We however deal with our King who is a resurrected man, who speaks to His Father of us.
Men have made our brother Jesus into a god and worship in an idolatrous fashion.
Res.
Quote (2besee @ May 02 2013,21:20) 2nd Peter 3 [9] The Lord is not slow about his promise as some count slowness, but is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
[10] But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a loud noise, and the elements will be dissolved with fire, and the earth and the works that are upon it will be burned up.[11] Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of persons ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness,
[12] waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be kindled and dissolved, and the elements will melt with fire!
[13] But according to his promise we wait for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
[14]Therefore, beloved, since you wait for these, be zealous to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace.
What was Peter waiting for?
Besee,2 Peter ch 3 is not a lesson in eschatology.
The key words in that chapter so often overlooked are–
“in the which”
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?and also– “Nevertheless we”
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
If this new heavens and earth is not this one which the meek are promised to inherit then which one is it?
The word for new in Rev.21:1 is fresh, but just when that will occur is somewhat complicated because it has to be by stages of, Christ returning, raising the dead saints, destroying the living wicked, placing satan in the pit (sealed over) ruling over the remaining mortals through the saints, restoring where ever the gospel is received, all until God has saved all that can be saved, which can be a very very long time.
Abraham and all overcomers since are promised to be part of that occuring.
Then follows the last resurrection in which the books are opened and it is here that many will enter the Kingdom of God also–
Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Just how God will be all in all can only mean that all are like Jesus is now, and God has not been idle forever, and in considering this creation, I suggest that man will forever be finding out about God and never getting to the end of Him and what He has done because He has not got any end.
So the best days on this earth are yet to come.
Res.
Res.
Quote (abe @ May 02 2013,16:39) Quote (journey42 @ May 01 2013,06:07) Quote (2besee @ May 01 2013,22:51) Quote Journey, YOUR idea of Paradise is a temporary kingdom where people die, where evil still exists OUTSIDE the WALLS.
I do not believe that.
I know you don't. You cannot see that there will also be future generations after Christ's return. Those inside that kingdom area will be protected. And yes they die, but at a good old age, and they live in peace. This has never happened ever.Quote I believe in the Jerusalem ABOVE. I believe in the Paradise above. I believe the words of Jesus.
There is a spiritual Jerusalem coming after the 1000 years, after the white throne judgement, and after death and hell are thrown into the lake of fire.
but there also is a physical Jerusalem. Where it all started. In the garden of Eden. That is where the tree of life was in the beginning, and that is where it will be in the end. The land there will be restored.Quote The Jerusalem above will come down onto the new Earth. After the Millenium. Not before. All the dead in the 2nd resurrection have to be judged first and the wicked thrown into the lake of fire.
Quote Our Heavenly Dwelling 1For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling, 3if indeed by putting it on we may not be found naked. 4For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
6So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, 7for we walk by faith, not by sight. 8Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please him. 10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.
“longing to put on our heavenly dwelling, if indeed by putting it on we may not be found naked”
This is spiritual Zion. We either dwell in Zion or dwell in babylon. One or the other. We are under the tent of Zion. When this body dies, it is not the end for us. For we have a place to go. You are mixing up spiritual zion with the physical. Not being able to tell the two apart. This is why it is so hard to understand. Being naked is not knowing the truth. No truth, no covering.This kingdom we speak of which is to come, after Christ's 2nd coming, is for the flesh. Israel. Christ and the saints will reign there. Abraham was promised to inherit this land also….Israel.
Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should ….after receive for an inheritance,…. obeyed: and he went out not knowing whither he went.
Abraham's footsteps travelled the border of this land Israel. He was promised this land, and to his seed, yet Abraham never got to see it. This would be the Israel of the Millennium (future) Abraham is going to receive this area also as an inheritance. He will be there, …the very boundary where he walked. He did not walk in heaven, but he walked on earth. The boundaries of the kingdom. (2240km2) Why are there boundaries? Yes the whole earth will be renewed, we do not deny this, but not yet…not until the millennium is over. There are boundaries here. This is the kingdom area on earth where the truth will flow out of zion. It doesn't mean that the whole world will be converted living the truth, but the truth comes out of this kingdom, not strange or false doctrines, just the truth. This truth will cover the whole earth.
This land was promised to Abraham for an inheritance. Does this make anyone curious?
Genesis 15:18 In that same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
Exodus 6:8 And I will bring you in unto the land, concerning the which I did swear to give it to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob; and I will give it you for an heritage: I am the LORD
You may say this has already been fulfilled. But the scriptures say that even Abraham himself would receive the promise and inherit this LAND also, where he walked. This is the camp of the saints, here on earth to come.
Hi J42,Acts2:32 “This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses. 33″Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the PROMISE of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear.
34″For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says: THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, “SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND,
35UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET.”' 36″Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ– this Jesus whom you crucified.”
and having received from the Father the PROMISE of the Holy Spirit,
The Promise is Fulfilled.
Peace sister.
Hi AbeActs 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Israel were shown many miracles and signs to signify that Jesus Christ was the Son of God. Even after Christ was risen from the dead, word got around very fast. It was the talk of the town. How his dead body that was heavily guarded disappeared, and how he appeared to many. We have pentecost as well where they all spoke in different languages. This was witnessed by many Jews. But despite all the evidence at the time, they still rejected him. I know it's mind boggling. Their hearts were hardened. Everything testified to them was
a witness against them, so that the gentiles could come in.They still have not realised they made a mistake, but it is going to be brought to their attention in a huge way, and then the veil will be taken off their eyes, and they will realise.
Quote (Resting @ May 03 2013,09:01) Quote (Wakeup @ May 02 2013,20:05) Quote (Resting @ May 02 2013,18:15) Quote (Wakeup @ May 02 2013,14:59) Quote (Resting @ May 02 2013,10:08) Quote (journey42 @ May 01 2013,21:55) Quote
Also, Jesus vanished into thin air when he appeared to the apostles. Does flesh do this or spirit?Resurrected flesh does.
Jesus is now a spiritual body , not a spirit.
Jesus did not necessarily vanish, only removed.
Jesus said He is not a spirit.
Luk 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Luk 24:51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.
Res.
Hi resting.I have a question:
Do angels also have to be carried up and down everytime they appear and disappear?
wakeup.
No, but they do go up and down and Jesus is a resurrected man, not an angel.Res.
Resting.I have one more question:
Are you saying that jesus is less in existence than the angels?
Since he is flesh like us,and the angels are spirit?wakeup.
No.Jesus was made a little lower than the angels in being a mortal man but by birth right was born higher than the angels but his substance as well is now higher than any angel.
While we can say that God and angels appeared as man, the truth is that man is made in the image of God and Jesus the express image of God as all in the end shall be also.
God is spirit, but man is spiritual not spirit , but the life of his being in the resurrection is the Spirit, having all the attributes of God in them.
All that is designed for man that is, because we do not know anything more than man can know, even then, and Jesus does not know everything even as He is now, unless His Father tells Him.
To be filled with the fulness of God, does not mean everything God is, does it.
God Himself being one person is greater than we can even think or imagine.
We however deal with our King who is a resurrected man, who speaks to His Father of us.
Men have made our brother Jesus into a god and worship in an idolatrous fashion.
Res.
Resting.Luke 10:22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and *NO MAN KNOWETH WHO THE SON IS*, *BUT THE FATHER*; *AND WHO THE FATHER IS*, *BUT THE SON*, **AND HE TO WHOM THE SON WILL REVEAL HIM**.
Your analysis about Christ shows me, that you have not been revealed whom the Son is.
psalms 33:6. *By the WORD OF THE LORD* were the heavens made; all the host of them by *THE BREATH OF HIS MOUTH*.
Isaiah43:11. I even I am the Lord; and beside me *THERE IS NO SAVIOUR*.
Rev.22:12.13. And behold I come quickly;and my reward is with me,to give every man according as his work shall be.
13. **I AM ALPHA AND OMEGA**,THE BEGINNNG AND THE END,**THE FIRST AND THE LAST**.wakeup.
Jesus was created as a spirit being – the first of God's works. All other spirit sons of God (and everything else) were then created by God through God's firstborn Son. (John 1:3, Col 1:16, 1 Cor 8:6, Heb 1:2)
Jesus was indeed existing in the form of God before emptying himself and being made in the likeness of a human being. (Phil 2) He was the Word of God who was with God in the beginning, but then was made flesh and dwelled among us on earth with the glory of God's only begotten. (John 1)
So for 33 years, he was a man on earth. He was killed, and then raised from the grave by his God. He wasn't raised immediately to spirit form, or he would have been LYING to his disciples in Luke 24:39. (And yes, it would have been a lie for him to be a spirit who “manifested flesh” – and yet tell them plainly that he was NOT a spirit. A spirit being in disguise is still a spirit being.)
So he wasn't raised from the grave as a spirit. He was raised in the same body in which he died (hence the scars and holes). He stayed on earth for 40 days in that body.
BUT………… we know that he did eventually become a life-giving spirit, with a glorious new spiritual body. (1 Cor 15, Phil 3)
We also know from 1 Cor 15 that flesh cannot inherit the kingdom of God. And Jesus made it clear that flesh cannot ENTER the kingdom of heaven. (John 3)
In my opinion, Jesus' flesh body was transformed (Phil 3:21) upon his ascension into heaven.
What other options are there, if we know he WAS flesh and bone after the resurrection, but ISN'T flesh anymore?
peace,
mike2besee,May wrote:[/quote]
Quote Journey, You said that Christ had to manifest into flesh to show it was really him and not a ghost and so they could see him. However, the word translated is not 'ghost', but 'spirit', so the correct rendering would be that Christ showed them that He was not spirit.
2Besse,
A ghost is a ghost. You can say spirit if you like. It's the same thing. I've seen a ghost, but I know it's a spirit. Spirit's have always appeared to men and made them afraid. How can you say that Christ was not raised spirit when we have all the other scriptures stating he was? and that we will be also?
I know you have those scriptures, so do I, but I know what Christ was meaning. He had to show them it was him, that's why he appeared in the flesh. He wasn't lying, he did transform into flesh. He could of transformed into a rock if he wanted to, but that wouldn't help anyone, so he appeared as they knew him, as flesh and not a spirit.Do you think Christ still has those wounds in his hands, really? think about it, …and those whiplash marks, and cuts in his head? If that's what being raised perfect, incorruptible, and immortal looks like, then you see a very grim picture.
Quote Jesus said to touch him and feel his hands his feet, that it is really him, not a spirit. Are we to believe this.. are we to believe that Jesus really was risen from the dead.. or are we to believe that He was only a spirit. Why do so many people today believe anything but what it actually says?
Because God, the author of his very word, has seen before hand from the beginning how many false doctrines will come out of the holy scriptures. Some things are straight forward, and the deeper things can only be revealed by the holy spirit. He has used certain wording to “trip” some over. He's done this on purpose. So if we are truly searching, we will not just read “that verse” alone, but will read all the verses and put all the scriptures together so that they harmonise and reveal a clearer picture.I can't force you to see what I see. It doesn't work that way. I've explained it, you disagree, so we can keep going on about it for another 40 pages if you like? or you can address the points I made to you earlier, which you have not done yet.
1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
then I gave you this verse to confirm this is how Christ was raised.
1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
and when we are finished with this one,
please tell me if Lazarus was resurrected before Christ?take your time,
I've got all day.Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 03 2013,11:42) Jesus was created as a spirit being – the first of God's works. All other spirit sons of God (and everything else) were then created by God through God's firstborn Son. (John 1:3, Col 1:16, 1 Cor 8:6, Heb 1:2) Jesus was indeed existing in the form of God before emptying himself and being made in the likeness of a human being. (Phil 2) He was the Word of God who was with God in the beginning, but then was made flesh and dwelled among us on earth with the glory of God's only begotten. (John 1)
So for 33 years, he was a man on earth. He was killed, and then raised from the grave by his God. He wasn't raised immediately to spirit form, or he would have been LYING to his disciples in Luke 24:39. (And yes, it would have been a lie for him to be a spirit who “manifested flesh” – and yet tell them plainly that he was NOT a spirit. A spirit being in disguise is still a spirit being.)
So he wasn't raised from the grave as a spirit. He was raised in the same body in which he died (hence the scars and holes). He stayed on earth for 40 days in that body.
BUT………… we know that he did eventually become a life-giving spirit, with a glorious new spiritual body. (1 Cor 15, Phil 3)
We also know from 1 Cor 15 that flesh cannot inherit the kingdom of God. And Jesus made it clear that flesh cannot ENTER the kingdom of heaven. (John 3)
In my opinion, Jesus' flesh body was transformed (Phil 3:21) upon his ascension into heaven.
What other options are there, if we know he WAS flesh and bone after the resurrection, but ISN'T flesh anymore?
peace,
mike
Hi MikeWooh, 2Besse's going to really love you!
Christ ascended to his father just after he saw Mary and told her that he would meet with the apostles later that evening. During that time he went up before he saw the apostles.
By the way, what is this emptying himself out? I keep hearing this. Where is it in the scriptures?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 03 2013,11:42) Jesus was created as a spirit being – the first of God's works. All other spirit sons of God (and everything else) were then created by God through God's firstborn Son. (John 1:3, Col 1:16, 1 Cor 8:6, Heb 1:2) Jesus was indeed existing in the form of God before emptying himself and being made in the likeness of a human being. (Phil 2) He was the Word of God who was with God in the beginning, but then was made flesh and dwelled among us on earth with the glory of God's only begotten. (John 1)
So for 33 years, he was a man on earth. He was killed, and then raised from the grave by his God. He wasn't raised immediately to spirit form, or he would have been LYING to his disciples in Luke 24:39. (And yes, it would have been a lie for him to be a spirit who “manifested flesh” – and yet tell them plainly that he was NOT a spirit. A spirit being in disguise is still a spirit being.)
So he wasn't raised from the grave as a spirit. He was raised in the same body in which he died (hence the scars and holes). He stayed on earth for 40 days in that body.
BUT………… we know that he did eventually become a life-giving spirit, with a glorious new spiritual body. (1 Cor 15, Phil 3)
We also know from 1 Cor 15 that flesh cannot inherit the kingdom of God. And Jesus made it clear that flesh cannot ENTER the kingdom of heaven. (John 3)
In my opinion, Jesus' flesh body was transformed (Phil 3:21) upon his ascension into heaven.
What other options are there, if we know he WAS flesh and bone after the resurrection, but ISN'T flesh anymore?
peace,
mike
Mike B.Just to tidy up a bit.
QUOTE:
Jesus was created as a spirit being – the first of God's works. All other spirit sons of God (and everything else) were then created by God through God's firstborn Son. (John 1:3, Col 1:16, 1 Cor 8:6, Heb 1:2)*UNQUOTE:*BEFORE EVERYTHING WAS; GOD BROUGHT FORTH OUT OF HIS MOUTH HIS WORD AND MADE HIM A BEING.THROUGH HIM WAS ALL CREATED.HE IS ALSO GODS RIGHT HAND.
QUOTE:
Jesus was indeed existing in the form of God before emptying himself and being made in the likeness of a human being. (Phil 2) He was the Word of God who was with God in the beginning, but then was made flesh and dwelled among us on earth with the glory of God's only begotten. (John 1)*UNQUOTE*:THIS IS TRUE.
GOD DID NOT EMPTY HIMSELF;BUT HIS WORD WHICH HE BROUGHT OUT OF HIS MOUTH AND FORMED HIM INTO A BEING. GOD MADE THIS BEING FLESH; AND CALL HIM JESUS.QUOTE:
So for 33 years, he was a man on earth. He was killed, and then raised from the grave by his God. He wasn't raised immediately to spirit form, or he would have been LYING to his disciples in Luke 24:39. (And yes, it would have been a lie for him to be a spirit who “manifested flesh” – and yet tell them plainly that he was NOT a spirit. A spirit being in disguise is still a spirit being.)*UNQUOTE*:THE FIRST THAT SAW JESUS WAS MARY;AND HE SAID TOUCH ME NOT,FOR I HAVE NOT BEEN TO MY FATHER.
MARY COULD SEE HIM. THAT *SAME DAY* HE WENT AND MEET WITH HIS BROTHERS AND SISTERS.FLESH AND BLOOD COULD NOT HAVE SEEN THE FATHER.
NO; IT WOULD NOT BE A LIE,BECAUSE HE REALLY MATERIALISED INTO REAL FLESH;HE COULD BE ONE OR THE OTHER. REAL FLESH, OR REAL SPIRIT.QUOTE:
So he wasn't raised from the grave as a spirit. He was raised in the same body in which he died (hence the scars and holes). He stayed on earth for 40 days in that body.*UNQUOTE*:HE WAS RAISED SPIRIT,AND CAN BE FLESH, OR SPIRIT.
HE APPEARED AND DISAPPEARED;MATERIALISED AND DEMATERIALISE. BEFORE HE WAS MADE FLESH,HE ALSO MATERIALISED BEFORE ABRAHAM ,AND ATE WITH HIM.
*HE* AND TWO ANGELS DID MATERIALISE.THE TWO ANGELS THEN WENT TO SODOM,AND MATERIALISED BEFORE LOT AND FAMILY.
MATERIALISE INTO REAL FLESH AND BONE.GOD COULD EVEN MAKE HIS POWER MATERIALISE INTO BREAD,WHICH HE FED 5000MEN PLUS WOMEN AND CHILDREN. REAL BREAD,THAT FILLED THEM.
THEREFORE GOD SAID TO MOSES ''I AM THAT I AM''.
MEANING;HE COULD BE ANYTHING HE WANTS TO BE.QUOTE:
BUT………… we know that he did eventually become a life-giving spirit, with a glorious new spiritual body. (1 Cor 15, Phil 3)We also know from 1 Cor 15 that flesh cannot inherit the kingdom of God. And Jesus made it clear that flesh cannot ENTER the kingdom of heaven. (John 3)
In my opinion, Jesus' flesh body was transformed (Phil 3:21) upon his ascension into heaven.
What other options are there, if we know he WAS flesh and bone after the resurrection, but ISN'T flesh anymore?*UNQUOTE*:
HE COULD BE WHAT HE WANTED TO BE. SATAN CAN MATERIALISE ALSO;WHICH HE DID WHEN HE TEMPTED JESUS,AND TOOK HIM UP A MOUNTAIN.BUT HE COULD NOT DO IT AT WILL; UNLESS GOD LET HIM.
wakeup.
Quote (journey42 @ May 02 2013,18:59) Hi Mike Wooh, 2Besse's going to really love you!
I doubt it. 2B thinks Jesus began his existence when he was born of Mary. I believe he was the firstborn of all creation – before the ages.Quote (journey42 @ May 02 2013,18:59) Christ ascended to his father just after he saw Mary and told her that he would meet with the apostles later that evening.
That is a very common understanding of John 20:17. But the first part of Acts 1 talks about the things Jesus did for 40 days “until the day he was taken up to heaven” (Acts 1:2). The disciples watched him ascend.So did he ascend and then come back? Was he spirit for a minute, and then made into a flesh being for a second time – complete with the body in which he was murdered? These are puzzling things for me.
Quote (journey42 @ May 02 2013,18:59) By the way, what is this emptying himself out? I keep hearing this. Where is it in the scriptures?
It is in Phil 2:7. The KJV translates it as “made himself of no reputation”. The Greek word is “kenoo”, which means:1) to empty, make empty
1a) of Christ, he laid aside equality with – or the form of God
2) to make void
2a) deprive of force, render vain, useless, of no effect
3) to make void
3a) cause a thing to be seen to be empty, hollow, falseQuote (Wakeup @ May 02 2013,19:51) SATAN CAN MATERIALISE ALSO;WHICH HE DID WHEN HE TEMPTED JESUS,AND TOOK HIM UP A MOUNTAIN.
Hi Wakeup,For the most part, we are saying the same thing – with a few differences.
You feel better thinking that the being who became Jesus was not “Jesus” until he was born of Mary. But 1 Cor 8:6, Heb 1:2, and Col 1:16 say all things were created through the Son of God, Jesus Christ.
He is known as “the Word of God” simply because he is God's main spokesman. He is not now, nor has he ever been, a literal word from God's mouth that became a being, IMO.
He was created as God's firstborn Son, and I see no scriptural reason whatsoever to think his name wasn't already “Jesus” before he was made flesh. (You are not alone on this. MANY people feel the need to distinguish between “Jesus” and “the word who would someday be called Jesus”. I see no such need, for there isn't any evidence he hasn't always been named “Jesus”.)
We apparently disagree about John 20:17. Read Acts 1:2, Wakeup. Do you suppose Luke was talking about the SECOND day Jesus was taken up to heaven? He surely didn't word it that way.
And finally, concerning Satan: Has Satan ever been an actual human being?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 03 2013,13:15) Quote (Wakeup @ May 02 2013,19:51) SATAN CAN MATERIALISE ALSO;WHICH HE DID WHEN HE TEMPTED JESUS,AND TOOK HIM UP A MOUNTAIN.
Hi Wakeup,For the most part, we are saying the same thing – with a few differences.
You feel better thinking that the being who became Jesus was not “Jesus” until he was born of Mary. But 1 Cor 8:6, Heb 1:2, and Col 1:16 say all things were created through the Son of God, Jesus Christ.
He is known as “the Word of God” simply because he is God's main spokesman. He is not now, nor has he ever been, a literal word from God's mouth that became a being, IMO.
He was created as God's firstborn Son, and I see no scriptural reason whatsoever to think his name wasn't already “Jesus” before he was made flesh. (You are not alone on this. MANY people feel the need to distinguish between “Jesus” and “the word who would someday be called Jesus”. I see no such need, for there isn't any evidence he hasn't always been named “Jesus”.)
We apparently disagree about John 20:17. Read Acts 1:2, Wakeup. Do you suppose Luke was talking about the SECOND day Jesus was taken up to heaven? He surely didn't word it that way.
And finally, concerning Satan: Has Satan ever been an actual human being?
Hi Mike B.The name Jesus or Jeshua means a Saviour.This name was given when he became flesh.Before his birth,he was (called) the word of God.
Notice also in revelation,he was given a name wich no man knows,but he himself.rev19:12.
13.And his name is called THE WORD OF GOD.Back to the word of God. Babylon will be destroyd by the Word of God.He is not just a spokes man; he is Gods word speaking,in audio through him.
When Jesus open his mouth;God was speaking.
He is like the loudspeaker. God does all things through his word that was made flesh.The Word was not the first *BORN* in heaven,HE WAS SIMPLY BROUGHT FORTH.The Word was projected out.
In the beginning was not Jesus;but the Word.
John20:17.Touch me not— he materialised for mary to see him; his Father must touch him first.
The holy Ghost (spirit) is the truth;all his words are spoken in truth.THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH IS IN THE WORD.
THE SPIRIT OF LYING IS IN SATANS WORD.Jesus went up in the flesh for one reason;and that is for all to see him ascend;AS A WITNESS.
Satan was never made flesh but he could materialise into flesh,only by permission.
wakeup.
Quote (Resting @ May 03 2013,11:31) Quote (2besee @ May 02 2013,21:20) 2nd Peter 3 [9] The Lord is not slow about his promise as some count slowness, but is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
[10] But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a loud noise, and the elements will be dissolved with fire, and the earth and the works that are upon it will be burned up.[11] Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of persons ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness,
[12] waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be kindled and dissolved, and the elements will melt with fire!
[13] But according to his promise we wait for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
[14]Therefore, beloved, since you wait for these, be zealous to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace.
What was Peter waiting for?
Besee,2 Peter ch 3 is not a lesson in eschatology.
The key words in that chapter so often overlooked are–
“in the which”
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?and also– “Nevertheless we”
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
If this new heavens and earth is not this one which the meek are promised to inherit then which one is it?
The word for new in Rev.21:1 is fresh, but just when that will occur is somewhat complicated because it has to be by stages of, Christ returning, raising the dead saints, destroying the living wicked, placing satan in the pit (sealed over) ruling over the remaining mortals through the saints, restoring where ever the gospel is received, all until God has saved all that can be saved, which can be a very very long time.
Abraham and all overcomers since are promised to be part of that occuring.
Then follows the last resurrection in which the books are opened and it is here that many will enter the Kingdom of God also–
Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Just how God will be all in all can only mean that all are like Jesus is now, and God has not been idle forever, and in considering this creation, I suggest that man will forever be finding out about God and never getting to the end of Him and what He has done because He has not got any end.
So the best days on this earth are yet to come.
Res.
Res thanks,
Yes I agree that the best days are to come, and you have given me something to work on, with your post.
I will get back to you on this.
Mike, this section is prophecy. Prophecy has nothing to do with the pre-exisence of Christ, but more the resurrected Christ. Nevertheless, what I believe is called spirit Christology, a belief which is accepted or at least considered by the Pentecostals and even the Orthodox as the earliest belief of the Church.
Wakeup and Journey:
The Son of Man on Earth became filled with the Holy Spirit Son of God from heaven, and that is how the Son of Man, Jesus, BECAME a life giving Spirit. He had life in Him.
The pre-existent Son of God, the Holy Spirit, which is here now, that is the Spirit. Jesus was and is a man and was and is flesh. You may find it hard to believe that Jesus is in heaven at this present moment in the resurrected flesh, but I do not find that hard to believe. Do you find it hard to believe that other planets can survive? How then is it impossible for flesh and bone to enter Heaven if it has been changed into a different type and form? Can an Astronaut be in heaven with a spacesuit on? Yes, of course. So we know that Jesus' body was changed.
It says “Flesh and Blood cannot enter the kingdom of heaven”.
There is more that I am seeing regarding this but i will leave it there.
HERE is some writing that you may want to read through. I have not read it thoroughly myself yet but it appears to be okay.
Quote (Wakeup @ May 02 2013,21:15) Hi Mike B. The name Jesus or Jeshua means a Saviour.
It means “Yah is Salvation”.Quote (Wakeup @ May 02 2013,21:15) Before his birth,he was (called) the word of God.
Which scripture tells us that?Quote (Wakeup @ May 02 2013,21:15) Notice also in revelation,he was given a name wich no man knows,but he himself.rev19:12.
13.And his name is called THE WORD OF GOD.Back to the word of God.
We all already know his “Word of God” name. The new name he received is something other than that.Quote (Wakeup @ May 02 2013,21:15) Babylon will be destroyd by the Word of God.
Agreed.Quote (Wakeup @ May 02 2013,21:15) He is not just a spokes man; he is Gods word speaking,in audio through him.
When Jesus open his mouth;God was speaking.
He is like the loudspeaker.
So then it was God Himself who asked God to remove the cup from him? Don't take it too far, Wakeup. Yes, Jesus spoke exactly what God commanded him to speak. But he spoke from HIS OWN perspective. It was not as if God was speaking into a microphone in heaven, and the words were coming directly through a human speaker named Jesus.Quote (Wakeup @ May 02 2013,21:15) The Word was not the first *BORN* in heaven,HE WAS SIMPLY BROUGHT FORTH.The Word was projected out.
Jesus is “the Word”, right? And Jesus is more than once called God's firstborn in scripture. One of them talks about when God AGAIN sends His firstborn into the world. (That implies that God already sent His firstborn into the world once, right?) So yes, “the Word/Jesus” is God's firstborn.Quote (Wakeup @ May 02 2013,21:15) Satan was never made flesh but he could materialise into flesh,only by permission.
So “materializing flesh” did NOT make Satan a true, flesh and blood HUMAN BEING? He was still a spirit?
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