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LU,
I don't understand your response to my post. What did you mean by 'there is only one begotten son'?
Does the Scriptures not say that we will be 'Joint Heirs' with Christ? (Rev 20:4, 6; 22:5; Galations 4:7)
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 28 2010,01:09) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 28 2010,16:40) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 28 2010,00:13) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 28 2010,15:32) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 27 2010,23:09) Hi LU,
There are no scriptures that say Jesus was a combined God with his God and then God's arm divided from God and came
Neither are there two Gods.
Nick,
OR you haven't been given that revelation yet. Do you think that God is with Himself in John 1:1?In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God.
Hi LU,
The Spirit of God is what transformed Jesus into a man of power and spiritual understanding.He said true worshipers worship the Father and he is not the Father is he?
Working instead from your own theories is sad to see.
Nick,
Our own theories is all anyone has. You have your own theory too. You think that Jesus was just a normal man like the rest of us but if that were so, his death would not pay for all mankind. The scriptures say that a righteous man can not die in the place of the unrighteous man. He was more than a man. So you can wallow in your own theories. I am just to submit mine and hopefully the Lord will use them as He pleases. It is not my job to convince you.All of us, like sheep, have gone our own way, but the Lord has caused the iniquities of us all to fall on Him. And we thank Him for bearing each of our lack.
I'm sure that if I was following another man's theories you would have trouble with that too.
Hi LU,
Why did Jesus have to be MORE THAN A MAN to save us?
Any scriptures?
Nick and JustAskin,Quote Ezek 18:7-20
7 if a man does not oppress anyone, but restores to the debtor his pledge, does not commit robbery, but gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with clothing,
8 if he does not lend money on interest or take increase, if he keeps his hand from iniquity and executes true justice between man and man,
9 if he walks in My statutes and My ordinances so as to deal faithfully — he is righteous and will surely live,” declares the Lord God.
10 “Then he may have a violent son who sheds blood and who does any of these things to a brother
11 (though he himself did not do any of these things), that is, he even eats at the mountain shrines, and defiles his neighbor's wife,
12 oppresses the poor and needy, commits robbery, does not restore a pledge, but lifts up his eyes to the idols and commits abomination,
13 he lends money on interest and takes increase; will he live? He will not live! He has committed all these abominations, he will surely be put to death; his blood will be on his own head.
14 “Now behold, he has a son who has observed all his father's sins which he committed, and observing does not do likewise.
15 “He does not eat at the mountain shrines or lift up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, or defile his neighbor's wife,
16 or oppress anyone, or retain a pledge, or commit robbery, but he gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with clothing,
17 he keeps his hand from the poor, does not take interest or increase, but executes My ordinances, and walks in My statutes; he will not die for his father's iniquity, he will surely live.
18 “As for his father, because he practiced extortion, robbed his brother and did what was not good among his people, behold, he will die for his iniquity.
19 “Yet you say, 'Why should the son not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity?' When the son has practiced justice and righteousness and has observed all My statutes and done them, he shall surely live.
20 “The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.
NASURead the whole thing not just what I have made bold print.
Quote (JustAskin @ Mar. 28 2010,04:11) LU, I don't understand your response to my post. What did you mean by 'there is only one begotten son'?
Does the Scriptures not say that we will be 'Joint Heirs' with Christ? (Rev 20:4, 6; 22:5; Galations 4:7)
JustAskin,
We are joint heirs with Christ but He is/was/will be the only actual, literal son of God and we are the redeemed sons of God, the adopted sons.John 1:14
14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
NASUJohn 1:18
18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
NASUJohn 3:16-18
16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
17 “For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
18 “He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
NASU1 John 4:9-10
9 By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him.
10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
NASUQuote (JustAskin @ Mar. 28 2010,03:22) LU,
Just curious: where, in Scriptures, does it say that 'Righteous man cannot die for unRighteous man'?Again, with curiosity: Are there others who believe your 'Binity'?
JustAskin,
I do not use the term “binity,” it is not a Biblical term. I use the term “unity.” The idea of unity of more than one is throughout scriptures.Yes there are others that believe in the Godhead of two beings, the Father and the Son with the Holy Spirit as the Father's actual spirit, shared with the Son and not a separate being. They also believe the Father is greater than the Son.
Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 28 2010,16:40) Nick,
Our own theories is all anyone has. You have your own theory too. You think that Jesus was just a normal man like the rest of us but if that were so, his death would not pay for all mankind. The scriptures say that a righteous man can not die in the place of the unrighteous man. He was more than a man.
Hi Kathi,I think you miss the point of Jesus coming as a man. True, he is the only human besides Adam and Eve that didn't come from a male and female human. But aside from that – he was a man. Sin entered the world through the first Adam, and was atoned for by the Last Adam. Jehovah is a God of exact justice, so why would something more than a man be required to offset sin brought into the world by a man.
All the miraculous things that Jesus did while on earth were by faith. He showed the disciples that they could drive out demons, walk on water, raise the dead – all the things Jesus did – by faith. He told them that if they only had faith the size of a mustard seed, they could tell a mountain to move from here to there, and it would do it.
In the case of Jesus, it was the plan all along for a righteous man to die to atone for the unrighteous.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 28 2010,10:32) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 28 2010,16:40) Nick,
Our own theories is all anyone has. You have your own theory too. You think that Jesus was just a normal man like the rest of us but if that were so, his death would not pay for all mankind. The scriptures say that a righteous man can not die in the place of the unrighteous man. He was more than a man.
Hi Kathi,I think you miss the point of Jesus coming as a man. True, he is the only human besides Adam and Eve that didn't come from a male and female human. But aside from that – he was a man. Sin entered the world through the first Adam, and was atoned for by the Last Adam. Jehovah is a God of exact justice, so why would something more than a man be required to offset sin brought into the world by a man.
All the miraculous things that Jesus did while on earth were by faith. He showed the disciples that they could drive out demons, walk on water, raise the dead – all the things Jesus did – by faith. He told them that if they only had faith the size of a mustard seed, they could tell a mountain to move from here to there, and it would do it.
In the case of Jesus, it was the plan all along for a righteous man to die to atone for the unrighteous.
peace and love,
mike
Mike,
Read this:Quote Ezek 18:7-20
7 if a man does not oppress anyone, but restores to the debtor his pledge, does not commit robbery, but gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with clothing,
8 if he does not lend money on interest or take increase, if he keeps his hand from iniquity and executes true justice between man and man,
9 if he walks in My statutes and My ordinances so as to deal faithfully — he is righteous and will surely live,” declares the Lord God.
10 “Then he may have a violent son who sheds blood and who does any of these things to a brother
11 (though he himself did not do any of these things), that is, he even eats at the mountain shrines, and defiles his neighbor's wife,
12 oppresses the poor and needy, commits robbery, does not restore a pledge, but lifts up his eyes to the idols and commits abomination,
13 he lends money on interest and takes increase; will he live? He will not live! He has committed all these abominations, he will surely be put to death; his blood will be on his own head.
14 “Now behold, he has a son who has observed all his father's sins which he committed, and observing does not do likewise.
15 “He does not eat at the mountain shrines or lift up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, or defile his neighbor's wife,
16 or oppress anyone, or retain a pledge, or commit robbery, but he gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with clothing,
17 he keeps his hand from the poor, does not take interest or increase, but executes My ordinances, and walks in My statutes; he will not die for his father's iniquity, he will surely live.
18 “As for his father, because he practiced extortion, robbed his brother and did what was not good among his people, behold, he will die for his iniquity.
19 “Yet you say, 'Why should the son not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity?' When the son has practiced justice and righteousness and has observed all My statutes and done them, he shall surely live.
20 “The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.
NASUQuote (Lightenup @ Mar. 28 2010,08:41) Col 1:16-18
16 For by Him (the Son) all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities — all things have been created through Him and for Him.
17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.
NASUI agree that the Father created through the Son but also by His Son. The Son was as a master craftsman.
Hi Kathi,What's the difference? All things came FROM God by (or by means of or through) Jesus. All things are never said to come FROM Jesus.
I agree with you that the ultimate source of creation is Jehovah. But do you agree that the ultimate source of salvation is also Jehovah?
You quoted part of Isaiah 40. But later, in verse 18, it says:
Quote 18 To whom, then, will you compare God?
What image will you compare him to?Seems to me you like to compare Him to Jesus. You want to worship the image of Jesus as God. Deut 4 says:
Quote 15 You saw no form of any kind the day the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully, 16 so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman, 17 or like any animal on earth or any bird that flies in the air, 18 or like any creature that moves along the ground or any fish in the waters below. 19 And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars—all the heavenly array—do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things the LORD your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven. You want to worship a god in the form of a man – the man Jesus. You want to worship one of the things that Jehovah has apportioned to all the nations under heaven. But it says not to.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (Lightenup @ Mar. 29 2010,03:13) 18 “As for his father, because he practiced extortion, robbed his brother and did what was not good among his people, behold, he will die for his iniquity.
19 “Yet you say, 'Why should the son not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity?' When the son has practiced justice and righteousness and has observed all My statutes and done them, he shall surely live.
20 “The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.
NASU
I don't dispute Ezekiel, but are you saying then that Jesus sinned so that he had to die?I said, “IN THE CASE OF JESUS…”
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 28 2010,11:26) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 29 2010,03:13) 18 “As for his father, because he practiced extortion, robbed his brother and did what was not good among his people, behold, he will die for his iniquity.
19 “Yet you say, 'Why should the son not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity?' When the son has practiced justice and righteousness and has observed all My statutes and done them, he shall surely live.
20 “The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.
NASU
I don't dispute Ezekiel, but are you saying then that Jesus sinned so that he had to die?I said, “IN THE CASE OF JESUS…”
peace and love,
mike
Mike,
As I understand this passage, and it takes careful reading (not just the portion that I made bold) you will find that someone is trying to make a case that a righteous son should be able to die for the sinning father. It concludes that each one will bear their own condition not the other's condition.“20 “The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself. “
My point in this is that scripture says that the righteous man cannot die for the sinning man. We cannot bear the punishment of another.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 28 2010,11:21) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 28 2010,08:41) Col 1:16-18
16 For by Him (the Son) all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities — all things have been created through Him and for Him.
17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.
NASUI agree that the Father created through the Son but also by His Son. The Son was as a master craftsman.
Hi Kathi,What's the difference? All things came FROM God by (or by means of or through) Jesus. All things are never said to come FROM Jesus.
I agree with you that the ultimate source of creation is Jehovah. But do you agree that the ultimate source of salvation is also Jehovah?
You quoted part of Isaiah 40. But later, in verse 18, it says:
Quote 18 To whom, then, will you compare God?
What image will you compare him to?Seems to me you like to compare Him to Jesus. You want to worship the image of Jesus as God. Deut 4 says:
Quote 15 You saw no form of any kind the day the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully, 16 so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman, 17 or like any animal on earth or any bird that flies in the air, 18 or like any creature that moves along the ground or any fish in the waters below. 19 And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars—all the heavenly array—do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things the LORD your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven. You want to worship a god in the form of a man – the man Jesus. You want to worship one of the things that Jehovah has apportioned to all the nations under heaven. But it says not to.
peace and love,
mike
Hi Mike,You said this:
Quote No, all things were made BY God THROUGH Jesus I was just correcting you that Colossians says that “for BY Him (the Son)all things were created” because you said that they weren't made “by” Him. I agree that the source of all things is the Father but they come into being “by” the Son. The Son played an active role in creation, not a passive role.
Quote But do you agree that the ultimate source of salvation is also Jehovah? I agree that the Father took on one part of salvation but the Son took on the part that only He could have taken on…walking out a sinless life and the laying down of His own life even unto death. The Father didn't lay down Jesus life for Him (Jesus) nor did the Father walk righteously for Him .
Quote You quoted part of Isaiah 40. But later, in verse 18, it says: Quote 18 To whom, then, will you compare God?
What image will you compare him to?Seems to me you like to compare Him to Jesus. You want to worship the image of Jesus as God. Deut 4 says:
Quote 15 You saw no form of any kind the day the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully, 16 so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman, 17 or like any animal on earth or any bird that flies in the air, 18 or like any creature that moves along the ground or any fish in the waters below. 19 And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars—all the heavenly array—do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things the LORD your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven. You want to worship a god in the form of a man – the man Jesus. You want to worship one of the things that Jehovah has apportioned to all the nations under heaven. But it says not to.
Where did Jehovah ever say that you can worship me but not my outstretched arm? The Son is the “outstretched arm.” Jehovah presented Himself as Him and His outstretched arm as ONE. Come to find out, the outstretched arm of Jehovah was the Son of God that becomes flesh and is Jesus. We worship Jehovah AND His outstretched arm (the Son) if we worship the God of the OT. The Spirit reveals this worship has always been to the Father AND the Son.
The outstretched arm is not an idol for by the power of Jehovah and His outstretched arm all things were created. The outstretched arm is not part of the created…that which was created was created “by” Him.
Quote Ps 136
136 Give thanks to the Lord, for He is good, For His lovingkindness is everlasting. 2 Give thanks to the God of gods, For His lovingkindness is everlasting. 3 Give thanks to the Lord of lords, For His lovingkindness is everlasting. 4 To Him who alone does great wonders, For His lovingkindness is everlasting; 5 To Him who made the heavens with skill, For His lovingkindness is everlasting; 6 To Him who spread out the earth above the waters, For His lovingkindness is everlasting; 7 To Him who made the great lights, For His lovingkindness is everlasting: 8 The sun to rule by day, For His lovingkindness is everlasting, 9 The moon and stars to rule by night, For His lovingkindness is everlasting. 10 To Him who smote the Egyptians in their firstborn, For His lovingkindness is everlasting, 11 And brought Israel out from their midst, For His lovingkindness is everlasting, 12 With a strong hand and an outstretched arm
, For His lovingkindness is everlasting. 13 To Him who divided the Red Sea asunder…The outstretched arm was seen as part of God, the God that was worshiped. The Son of God was and is a part of God, the God that was worshiped although the Jews did not realize that the outstretched arm was the Son since that was not revealed to them yet.
Hi LU,
The Spirit of God is as you say.
Fathers are not part of their sons any more than mothers are.Was he also always part of his mother?
LU,
I find it amazing that (or maybe not) that someone can think that it is ok to WORSHIP any part of an individual.
Worshipping the Father is not about singing songs and dancing or simply listening to the words of the messenger for even angels (who are also messengers) brought the words of God to man or God spoke through them as His mouthpiece in human form.
You have been through this 'Jesus worship' so many times with all the evidence set out before you and still you persist in your false belief.
LU, it is easy to say but hard to believe but we are only trying to bring you into the Truth, God's Truth, the same Truth that He gave to Jesus to repeat to mankind for it's Salvation.
When you ask: 'Where does it say that we Shouldn't Worship Jesus', the answer is in Jesus' own words, the words he brought from his Father, the words His Father spoke in the Old Testament and Jesus repeated as a witness:'Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God and only to Him offer Sacred Service'.
Everytime you say 'Worship Jesus' you turn yourself into an opposer, into a Satan.
Please beware and hope that you do not pursuade an innocent truth seeker to entertain your false ideas and be led astray.
Hi LU,
You need to decide if he was with God or in God before he was sent.
If he was God did he send himself?Jesus loved his Father and his Father loved him but you think that love has no real meaning?
I mean you love your own body-nobody hates his own body according to scripture.Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 29 2010,06:08) Where did Jehovah ever say that you can worship me but not my outstretched arm?
Hi Kathi,Correction on the “by” accepted. I should have used “from” God, not “by” God.
As far as your question above, a better question is when did God, Jesus or anybody else for that matter say “TO” worship His arm as a separate god, Son of God or anything else? When are we taught by the Scriptures to worship anyone or anything but Jehovah? Does the OT show an account where the Israelites worshipped “the outstretched arm”?
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 28 2010,19:01) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 29 2010,06:08) Where did Jehovah ever say that you can worship me but not my outstretched arm?
Hi Kathi,Correction on the “by” accepted. I should have used “from” God, not “by” God.
As far as your question above, a better question is when did God, Jesus or anybody else for that matter say “TO” worship His arm as a separate god, Son of God or anything else? When are we taught by the Scriptures to worship anyone or anything but Jehovah? Does the OT show an account where the Israelites worshipped “the outstretched arm”?
peace and love,
mike
Hi Mike,
The “outstretched arm” does not get singled out to be worshiped…the arm does not act alone. The Lord and His Arm are worshiped as one being.Before the arm is revealed:
Quote 2 Kings 17:36
36 “But the Lord, who brought you up from the land of Egypt with great power and with an outstretched arm, Him you shall fear, and to Him you shall bow yourselves down, and to Him you shall sacrifice.After the arm is revealed:
Quote Phil 2:10-11
10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
NASUThe Father and Son worshiped together:
Quote Rev 5:5-14
behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals.”
6 And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth.
7 And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.
8 When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
9 And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.
10 “You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth.”
Angels Exalt the Lamb 11 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands,
12 saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.”
13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, “To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.”
14 And the four living creatures kept saying, “Amen.” And the elders fell down and worshiped.
NASUQuote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 28 2010,20:38) Hi LU,
Then why did Jesus say true worshipers worship the Father?
Nick,
Why? Because it is right to do. But to do that in truth you must receive the Son…apart from the Son, you cannot worship the Father in truth.Hi LU,
Yes you come to the Son to be reconciled with his God and Father. God was in him for this reason.
Then you worship his God and our God in his name.
Or do you?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 28 2010,15:49) Hi LU,
You need to decide if he was with God or in God before he was sent.
If he was God did he send himself?Jesus loved his Father and his Father loved him but you think that love has no real meaning?
I mean you love your own body-nobody hates his own body according to scripture.
Nick,
He wasn't the God who sent Him, He was God, as the Son of God, that was sent.
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