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Quote David also gave a list of translations of Titus 2:13 which really do not contradict the Granville Sharp rule. He is expecting that you will read Titus 2:13 the way he does. David is pretty slick isn't he? So, these translations do not contradict the Sharp rule:
1934 “of the great God and of our The Riverside New
Savior Christ Jesus” Testament,Boston and
New York.
1935 “of the great God and of our A New Translation of the
Saviour Christ Jesus” Bible, by James Moffatt, New
York and London.
1950 “of the great God and of our New World Translation of
Savior Christ Jesus” the Christian Greek
Scriptures, Brooklyn.
1957 “of the great God and of our La Sainte Bible, by Louis
Savior Jesus Christ” Segond, Paris.
1970 “of the great God and of our The New American Bible,
Savior Christ Jesus” New York and London.
1972 “of the great God and of The New Testament in
Christ Jesus our saviour” Modern English, by
J. B. Phillips, New York.So, you are fine with these translations?
From the “Sharp's rule” thread:
David wrote:
Quote Also, 1 Tim. 6:13 is translated in trinitarian Bibles as: “before (in the sight or presence of) God … and before Christ Jesus….” Although Sharp's Rule insists that this should be translated to show that it is speaking of the same person, it obviously is not! Obviously, most trinitarian grammar experts simply do not believe Sharp's Rule is a valid absolute rule!
TO ALL:I am about to retire for the evening but wanted to run off one quickie reply to David. In the statement from 1 Timothy 6:13 above Sharp's rule does not apply because the substantitives “God” and “Jesus Christ” are BOTH accompanied by the definite article. Remember: The nouns would refer to the same person ONLY if the first noun has the article and the second does not. In 1 Timothy 6:13 BOTH nouns have the article which means that “God” and “Jesus Christ” are distinguished in the verse. So the rule does not apply here.
This is just one example of David's anti-Christian bag of tricks. I will get to the rest of his post soon. He really has my blood boiling profusely now.
thinker
hi David
your comment on the good translations of the bible only refers to Titus 2;13 those translation are not necessarily true in all its pages.Quote (david @ Dec. 17 2009,11:36) Quote David also gave a list of translations of Titus 2:13 which really do not contradict the Granville Sharp rule. He is expecting that you will read Titus 2:13 the way he does. David is pretty slick isn't he? So, these translations do not contradict the Sharp rule:
1934 “of the great God and of our The Riverside New
Savior Christ Jesus” Testament,Boston and
New York.
1935 “of the great God and of our A New Translation of the
Saviour Christ Jesus” Bible, by James Moffatt, New
York and London.
1950 “of the great God and of our New World Translation of
Savior Christ Jesus” the Christian Greek
Scriptures, Brooklyn.
1957 “of the great God and of our La Sainte Bible, by Louis
Savior Jesus Christ” Segond, Paris.
1970 “of the great God and of our The New American Bible,
Savior Christ Jesus” New York and London.
1972 “of the great God and of The New Testament in
Christ Jesus our saviour” Modern English, by
J. B. Phillips, New York.So, you are fine with these translations?
No these translations do not contradict Sharp's rule. First, the copulative “and” does not function in the Greek the exact same way it functions in the Engish. Second, Jesus Christ is called the “Savior” in these texts which He could not be if He were not God. For ONLY God is Savior.If the passages above exclude Christ from being God then they also exclude God from being Savior.
You read the terms “God” and “Savior” in these verses as if they are non equivalent terms when you would not do so in other passages. The two words are equivalent because “Savior” implies “God.”
thinker
Thinker………..Is there no end to you trinitarians twisting an forcing texts , not it the English word ” AND” doesn't mean AND. When it reads Jesus (AND) GOD THE FATHER, IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT? You are offering us another another maze to travail, when simple Scriptures speak clearly.”O what a Wed we weave when we first practice to deceive”.
Quote (Gene @ Dec. 18 2009,03:19) Thinker………..Is there no end to you trinitarians twisting an forcing texts , not it the English word ” AND” doesn't mean AND. When it reads Jesus (AND) GOD THE FATHER, IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT? You are offering us another another maze to travail, when simple Scriptures speak clearly.”O what a Wed we weave when we first practice to deceive”.
Gene,
Wait a minute friend. On the ESV thread you said that we should not rely on the scriptures when I showed that older manuscripts say that it was Jesus who delivered the people out of Egypt (Jude 5). Once you said we should not rely on the scriptures you pretty much took away your ability to prove anything.thinker
hi tt
in Jude 5 if it is Jesus or God does it make any difference
??
in any case it does not make Christ God the father or God Christ,just because one always does the will of the other.Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 18 2009,14:56) hi tt
in Jude 5 if it is Jesus or God does it make any difference??
in any case it does not make Christ God the father or God Christ,just because one always does the will of the other.
Trinitarians do not believe that Jesus is God the Father. Those who believe that Jesus was His own Father are not Trinitarians but a small faction of Unitarianism.thinker
thinker…….what i meant by that was (YOUR) presentation of a resent finding that you grab as scripture when in fact they are just some fragments found . You eagerness to (TRY) to prove Jesus is A GOD, only shows how you have no real proof so you are franticly looking for something to support you false assumptions. Jesus is and alway was a Human being , from the time he came into being at His berth through Mary, and He (NEVER) existed befor his Berth except in the Plan of GOD for all humanity, to bring (MANY) SONS to GLORY the same Glory as Jesus has.
Quote (Gene @ Dec. 21 2009,03:19) thinker…….what i meant by that was (YOUR) presentation of a resent finding that you grab as scripture when in fact they are just some fragments found . You eagerness to (TRY) to prove Jesus is A GOD, only shows how you have no real proof so you are franticly looking for something to support you false assumptions. Jesus is and alway was a Human being , from the time he came into being at His berth through Mary, and He (NEVER) existed befor his Berth except in the Plan of GOD for all humanity, to bring (MANY) SONS to GLORY the same Glory as Jesus has.
The manuscripts that say that “Jesus saved the people out of Egypt” are EARLIER manuscripts. They can't be ignored.thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 17 2009,08:24) Quote (Gene @ Dec. 18 2009,03:19) Thinker………..Is there no end to you trinitarians twisting an forcing texts , not it the English word ” AND” doesn't mean AND. When it reads Jesus (AND) GOD THE FATHER, IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT? You are offering us another another maze to travail, when simple Scriptures speak clearly.”O what a Wed we weave when we first practice to deceive”.
Gene,
Wait a minute friend. On the ESV thread you said that we should not rely on the scriptures when I showed that older manuscripts say that it was Jesus who delivered the people out of Egypt (Jude 5). Once you said we should not rely on the scriptures you pretty much took away your ability to prove anything.thinker
And you said the same to me when I showed even older manuscripts.Quote (Constitutionalist @ Dec. 21 2009,08:41) Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 17 2009,08:24) Quote (Gene @ Dec. 18 2009,03:19) Thinker………..Is there no end to you trinitarians twisting an forcing texts , not it the English word ” AND” doesn't mean AND. When it reads Jesus (AND) GOD THE FATHER, IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT? You are offering us another another maze to travail, when simple Scriptures speak clearly.”O what a Wed we weave when we first practice to deceive”.
Gene,
Wait a minute friend. On the ESV thread you said that we should not rely on the scriptures when I showed that older manuscripts say that it was Jesus who delivered the people out of Egypt (Jude 5). Once you said we should not rely on the scriptures you pretty much took away your ability to prove anything.thinker
And you said the same to me when I showed even older manuscripts.
No sir!thinker
Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 12 2011,10:10) Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Aug. 11 2011,20:25) Quote (Pastry @ Aug. 11 2011,14:34) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 11 2011,12:35) Irene,
What is a half trinity??
Kathi! Look at what you believe??? You say Jehovah God is both Jesus and Almighty God, so Keith and Jack both agree with you…. It is because they believe in the trinity. The only thing you don't believe is that the Holy Spirit of God is not the third of Jehovah, but is the Spirit of God….that makes it a half trinity…my saying….not according to any Scriptures, just like you do with Jehovah….Irene
Looking for that blessed hope the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.It's as plain as the nose on Georg's face.
Jack
Hi Jack,Does the word “AND” in that verses somehow elude you?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Ed,This too has been explained a gazillion, zillion, trillion, billion, million times.
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=2407
See the op to this thread and see that truth eludes you.
KJ
Hey Jack
Thanks for bringing up this thread. I had been looking for this post of mine for some time. Tit 2:13, 14 is unambiguous and proof Jesus is God.
So, let’s look at the closer context…
while we wait for the blessed hope-the glorious *APPEARING* (epiphaneia) of our great “God and Savior”, Jesus Christ, “WHO GAVE HIMSELF FOR US TO REDEEM US” from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good. Titus 2:13, 14
The Greek word for “appearing” is ‘epiphaneia’ which means;
1) an appearing, appearance
It is translated AV — appearing 5 times, brightness 1 time.
Do you guys have your eyes and ears open, because this is the double whammy.
As you can see in verse 14 Paul continues his sentence by telling us who it is that is going to appear…
Jesus Christ, “WHO GAVE HIMSELF FOR US TO REDEEM US”!!!
Is this terminology used of the Father anywhere in scriptures?
First he says he will appear, and we know there are “no” scriptures that say the Father is going to appear, or that the Father is who we are looking for to return.
But to put the nail in the coffin, Paul uses the word “epiphaneia” exclusively for the Lord Jesus Christ return in all the 6 times he used it in the NT.
to keep this command without spot or blame until “THE APPEARING (EPIPHANEIA) OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST”, 1 Tim 6:14
but it has now been revealed through “THE APPEARING (EPIPHANEIA) OF OUR SAVIOR, CHRIST JESUS”, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel. 2 Tim 1:10
In the presence of God and of “CHRIST JESUS, WHO WILL JUDGE THE LIVING AND THE DEAD, AND IN VIEW OF HIS APPEARING (EPIPHANEIA) AND HIS KINGDOM”, I give you this charge: 2 Tim 4:1
Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which “THE LORD, THE RIGHTEOUS JUDGE, WILL AWARD TO ME ON THAT DAY–AND NOT ONLY TO ME, BUT ALSO TO ALL WHO HAVE LONGED FOR HIS APPEARING (EPIPHANEIA)”. 2 Tim 4:8
And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom “THE LORD JESUS WILL OVERTHROW WITH THE BREATH OF HIS MOUTH AND DESTROY BY THE SPLENDOR (EPIPHANEIA) OF HIS COMING”. 2 Thess 2:8
This scriptural fact together with the Grandville Sharp rule leaves Titus 2:13 unambiguous as to Paul’s confession that Jesus is his Great God and Savior.
Couple that with what Paul wrote In Phil 2 that Jesus was “in very nature God” and that he thought it not robbery to be equal to God the Father, along with this scripture which also fits Grandville Sharps rule…
For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our “ONLY MASTER AND LORD, JESUS CHRIST”. Jude 1:4
And another scripture that follows the rule is…
Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of “OUR GOD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST have received a faith as precious as ours: 2 Peter 1:1 Peter who was also a witness of Jesus and Thomas confession claims Jesus as his God and Savior.
You guys can close your eyes and ears if you want, but scriptures clearly teach that Jesus is called God by the Apostles. Now you can believe that he is “a god” or a false god, or no god at all, but the fact remains that the Trinitarian is following biblical truth by confessing as the Apostles did that Jesus is their Lord and God. This does not take away from the Father for it is also the Father that declared him as such and commands the Angels to worship him. We are to honor the Son “even as” the Father. This is his commandment!
And Thomas answered and *said unto him*, “MY LORD AND MY GOD”. John 20:28
There is no ambiguity in Thomas words, and Jesus didn’t rebuke him and neither did John the witness who claims Jesus is God also, he also does not correct him.
So my confession is “I am looking for the appearing of my Great God and Saviour, Jesus Christ my Lord!
Blessings WJ
WJ said:
Quote Jesus Christ, “WHO GAVE HIMSELF FOR US TO REDEEM US”!!! Is this terminology used of the Father anywhere in scriptures?
Keith,Exactly bro! In Isaiah 44:6 YHWH said, “I am your Goel (kinsman-redeemer).” The Father cannot qualify because under the law a redeemer was required to be a blood relative which is what the word “goel” means. It means, “blood relative-purchaser.”
Jesus was the only YHWH who was Israel's blood relative-purchaser or “goel.”
Triple whammy!
Jack
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