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Hi kenrch
Quote YOURS is up to the amazing faith that ever was! Do you believe that an out board motor which is described in a single cell to be an accident? HAVE YOU “LOOKED” AT IT!? Has an out board motor just appeared?~! I am in the market for a small outboard motor, as it happens. Do they just appear?
Quote I worked as mechanic so when I was told that God was a lot of BS
I gave this analogy. What if you were to place all 'what it takes”
to create an running engine into a mixer and spin it as long as you would like. Do you think that after spinning all the bolts would fall into place all the bolts would be tighten to torqued sepecification to what was needed to run the engine? PLEASE! Common sense tells you that this impossible!Let me guess what you are on about here. Correct me if I am wrong, but are you referring to the flagellum of a bacterium, and the ID argument that uses it as an example?
Here you can read about why the bacterial flagellum is more complicated that it needs to be because the parts it’s made from used to do another job, like making a formula one racing car into an outboard motor (that’s poor design, but exactly what you would expect from evolution):
http://www.talkreason.org/articles/dunk.cfm#bactflagThis is a nice example of how “irreducible complexity” that cannot possibly have been there before has evolved within last century, in one microorganism:
http://www.talkreason.org/articles/dunk.cfm#how2eatpcpThis discusses some of the background to the real purpose of ID. You’ve really got to ask yourself why they are so keen to get ID into schools, and they aren’t bothering with convincing those in universities and research organisations. Could it be that ID is a load of (as you say) BS?
http://www.slate.com/id/2127052/Quote Accidents DON'T just happen! They are caused! If these are accidents then WHAT Caused them? I’ve worked it out: god causes accidents!
People should look more carefully when they are driving.Not sure what all this has to do with the thread…
Stuart
Quote I just wonder how many churches would hold an open forum discussion on the trinity instead of a service of worship one Sunday
I dare say NONE.Quote How do you “find out” there is a god in the first place
I've been thinking about this question since the first time I read it yesterday…… Scripture tells us that “knowing God” is written on our hearts. That we don't have to tell one another to “know God” because we already know him! So an interesting idea to explore would be, is the God of the Bible the only name under which “God” operates? Or can he be “known” as, for instance, Buddah? or Allah? Considering, of course, that other's around the world believe they “know God” and their God is not the God of the Bible.Quote (Not3in1 @ Nov. 24 2007,16:08) Quote I just wonder how many churches would hold an open forum discussion on the trinity instead of a service of worship one Sunday
I dare say NONE.Quote How do you “find out” there is a god in the first place
I've been thinking about this question since the first time I read it yesterday…… Scripture tells us that “knowing God” is written on our hearts. That we don't have to tell one another to “know God” because we already know him! So an interesting idea to explore would be, is the God of the Bible the only name under which “God” operates? Or can he be “known” as, for instance, Buddah? or Allah? Considering, of course, that other's around the world believe they “know God” and their God is not the God of the Bible.
Is faith a multichoice question where all the answers are right, EXCEPT (D) None of the above?Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Nov. 24 2007,15:56) Hi kenrch Quote YOURS is up to the amazing faith that ever was! Do you believe that an out board motor which is described in a single cell to be an accident? HAVE YOU “LOOKED” AT IT!? Has an out board motor just appeared?~! I am in the market for a small outboard motor, as it happens. Do they just appear?
Quote I worked as mechanic so when I was told that God was a lot of BS
I gave this analogy. What if you were to place all 'what it takes”
to create an running engine into a mixer and spin it as long as you would like. Do you think that after spinning all the bolts would fall into place all the bolts would be tighten to torqued sepecification to what was needed to run the engine? PLEASE! Common sense tells you that this impossible!Let me guess what you are on about here. Correct me if I am wrong, but are you referring to the flagellum of a bacterium, and the ID argument that uses it as an example?
Here you can read about why the bacterial flagellum is more complicated that it needs to be because the parts it’s made from used to do another job, like making a formula one racing car into an outboard motor (that’s poor design, but exactly what you would expect from evolution):
http://www.talkreason.org/articles/dunk.cfm#bactflagThis is a nice example of how “irreducible complexity” that cannot possibly have been there before has evolved within last century, in one microorganism:
http://www.talkreason.org/articles/dunk.cfm#how2eatpcpThis discusses some of the background to the real purpose of ID. You’ve really got to ask yourself why they are so keen to get ID into schools, and they aren’t bothering with convincing those in universities and research organisations. Could it be that ID is a load of (as you say) BS?
http://www.slate.com/id/2127052/Quote Accidents DON'T just happen! They are caused! If these are accidents then WHAT Caused them? I’ve worked it out: god causes accidents!
People should look more carefully when they are driving.Not sure what all this has to do with the thread…
Stuart
It has to do with YOU Stu! You have more faith than any of us here even more than your counter part TOW.All those planets out there and only on this earth has this “accident” happened. That's not faith?
It just happens that if the earth were closer or further from the sun it would not support life.
It just happened that a ancient man wrote that the earth is round long before a telescope. Isiah 40:22
It just happened that we have the Ten Commandments and all of civilization follows.
It just happened that before the 1900s just about the greatest invention was the wheel. Dan. 12:4
It just happens that LOVE exist.
All these things is an accident?
OH! You have abundant faith in man's religion.
But after your finished I believe you will come to the knowledge to the truth!
All atheist call out to God on their death bed!
Quote (Stu @ Nov. 24 2007,15:28) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 24 2007,12:38) Stu…..> you say isn't that just humans nortoriously poor attitude for recognizing coincidence and fantastical ability to selectively see patterns?. I could agree with you if somthing was to just happen once in a while, But if everytime it would happen and even others saw it happening continually it then cannot be a coincedence can it. But me telling you or anyone else that doesen't give you faith does it. No you must get your own proof, that is if you are not to fearfull to (TRY) yourself. And for someone who has never Tried to get your own proof, what right do you have to question or cast despersion on others who have allready
gotten their proof. You are in no position to question faith seeing you have none. It say's (have you Faith, Have it unto yourself) So it up to you to get your proof not everyone else to give it to you. And you not believing in God doesn't change truth does it. If you want to believe the millions of earths species came from a slim pool thats your rigth so produce your evidence of it, if you can't and still believe in that, then i would have to say your belief lacks proof and your faith is a suposition you or anyone else can't prove. At least i have my proof's in the unseen God where's yours. you are like a ship adrift without a rutter or compass to guide it. I live in this world with Hope of a future, you live in this world without any hope. I would rather live with Hope in this world and the world to come, not without Hope as you do . Stu you are in no position to even talk about FAITH, seening you have none.gene
Hi GeneThanks for all the good advice. I shall ignore it, of course because you really don't know me or, evidently, the subject of evolutionary biology well enough to comment on what I believe to be true.
You have not really explained why I am in no position to question faith. Is the nature of faith that it cannot be questioned by non-believers? If so, why?
Stuart
Stu……> you can question Faith all you want, but the facts from your own words shows you not only don't know the true meaning of the word Faith except what you read in a modern dictionary, all the while egnoring what the bible definition is. If you will go back to an eailer unabridge English dictionary you will find the word defined as the bible defines it.And you can ignore anything I or anyone else say's as you do. You wan't deal with your lack of Faith on you terms not anyone elses, that your choice isn't it.
And you saying I doin't know you, tell me what you are saying is all a lie or I really do know you, at least by your own words i Do. You have basicly shown yourself as totally faithless with reguards to a creator God, or you are lying one or the other.
Again FAITH is The (Substance of Things Hoped), The (EVIDENCE) of Things (NOT SEEN) true EVIDENCE is what WE have and what you DON”T have. So without having your own evidence you will never Know, But to criticize others who have their proof only shows us what you lack of it, and thats really your problem not ours, right?.
Just the way you present yourself Stu………gene
Quote (Stu @ Nov. 24 2007,21:16) Quote (Not3in1 @ Nov. 24 2007,16:08) Quote I just wonder how many churches would hold an open forum discussion on the trinity instead of a service of worship one Sunday
I dare say NONE.Quote How do you “find out” there is a god in the first place
I've been thinking about this question since the first time I read it yesterday…… Scripture tells us that “knowing God” is written on our hearts. That we don't have to tell one another to “know God” because we already know him! So an interesting idea to explore would be, is the God of the Bible the only name under which “God” operates? Or can he be “known” as, for instance, Buddah? or Allah? Considering, of course, that other's around the world believe they “know God” and their God is not the God of the Bible.
Is faith a multichoice question where all the answers are right, EXCEPT (D) None of the above?Stuart
I guess that would be true. Maybe that thought is born from the indoctrination that you must always, “Keep the faith.” Or the feeling that you must have faith in something.Again, faith can be thought of as hope. Without hope, you are considered hopeless. That tends to be a negative thing, not something someone would choose.
Hi Kenrch
Quote It has to do with YOU Stu! You have more faith than any of us here even more than your counter part TOW. Is that a compliment? Faith is held in high regard here. Do a get a trophy?
Quote All those planets out there and only on this earth has this “accident” happened. That's not faith? Do you know that for sure?
Quote It just happens that if the earth were closer or further from the sun it would not support life. And do you know that for sure too?
Quote It just happened that a ancient man wrote that the earth is round long before a telescope. Isiah 40:22 Good for Isaiah! People should have known as soon as they realised that you can see the curvature of the horizon when you stand on an ocean beach. Or the fact that when a ship is approaching port, you see the top of the mast first. The only people to maintain a serious flat-earth view were C18th & C19th christians who took an anti-science stance just because they got mad at how much Darwin and others were disproving the myths of the OT. Ironic, really.
Quote It just happened that we have the Ten Commandments and all of civilization follows. So you are saying that before Moses’ journey to pick up a couple of rocks with writing on there was wholesale murder, theft, ox coveting, adultery and lying? Humans have been on earth for 200,000 years. What an egocetric thing to say that morality belongs to such a Johnny-come-lately as christianity. It is also obviously not true. You could equally argue that christianity has stolen the prevailing evolved ethics of humans and added a couple of “branding” ones about not worshipping idols and not collecting bundles of sticks on the sabbath for fear of being killed by an angry god (just as well to be warned, I suppose).
Quote It just happened that before the 1900s just about the greatest invention was the wheel. Dan. 12:4 Dan 12:4 doesn’t mention the wheel; I thought a greater invention was the firmament (which is mentioned in Dan 12), created by god as a solid separating surface. Although Isaiah might have been a storming astronomer, the writer of Genesis did not have much of a clue. Isn’t it interesting that our space programme has found no solid separation between here and space…
Quote It just happens that LOVE exist. I suppose you’re going to claim credit for that too.
Quote All these things is an accident? No, these things ARE not an “accident”. Evolution by natural selection explains love perfectly well. Actually, you can trust an atheist’s love more that a christian’s – a non-believer has no second motive, no imaginary friend to split his affections with.
Quote OH! You have abundant faith in man's religion. Man’s gods be praised!
Quote But after your finished I believe you will come to the knowledge to the truth!All atheist call out to God on their death bed! Name 3 famous ones!
Stuart
Hi Gene
Quote Stu……> you can question Faith all you want, but the facts from your own words shows you not only don't know the true meaning of the word Faith except what you read in a modern dictionary, all the while egnoring what the bible definition is. If you will go back to an eailer unabridge English dictionary you will find the word defined as the bible defines it. This thread is about faith. Can you quote us such a definition?
Quote And you can ignore anything I or anyone else say's as you do. You wan't deal with your lack of Faith on you terms not anyone elses, that your choice isn't it. I am not searching for faith. I am curious about its nature.
Quote And you saying I doin't know you, tell me what you are saying is all a lie or I really do know you, at least by your own words i Do. You have basicly shown yourself as totally faithless with reguards to a creator God, or you are lying one or the other. No, you are right. I don’t believe in god. Please can you tell Kenrch for me. He thinks I have more faith than anyone.
Quote Again FAITH is The (Substance of Things Hoped), The (EVIDENCE) of Things (NOT SEEN) true EVIDENCE is what WE have and what you DON”T have. So without having your own evidence you will never Know, But to criticize others who have their proof only shows us what you lack of it, and thats really your problem not ours, right?. Just the way you present yourself I know from long experience that christians, especially creationists, have dictionaries that give a different definition every time you look up a word, but I’m sorry to say that no-one could honestly agree with you that you have proofs of god. You might get away with saying they are “personal proofs” but you must acknowledge that your use of the word proof is not in line with what that word means.
Does faith overcome all, including English etymology?
Stuart
Quote (Not3in1 @ Nov. 25 2007,08:18) Quote (Stu @ Nov. 24 2007,21:16) Quote (Not3in1 @ Nov. 24 2007,16:08) Quote I just wonder how many churches would hold an open forum discussion on the trinity instead of a service of worship one Sunday
I dare say NONE.Quote How do you “find out” there is a god in the first place
I've been thinking about this question since the first time I read it yesterday…… Scripture tells us that “knowing God” is written on our hearts. That we don't have to tell one another to “know God” because we already know him! So an interesting idea to explore would be, is the God of the Bible the only name under which “God” operates? Or can he be “known” as, for instance, Buddah? or Allah? Considering, of course, that other's around the world believe they “know God” and their God is not the God of the Bible.
Is faith a multichoice question where all the answers are right, EXCEPT (D) None of the above?Stuart
I guess that would be true. Maybe that thought is born from the indoctrination that you must always, “Keep the faith.” Or the feeling that you must have faith in something.Again, faith can be thought of as hope. Without hope, you are considered hopeless. That tends to be a negative thing, not something someone would choose.
Thanks for you helpful post!I was walking in the city today doing some shopping for the pagan festival of christmas and passed a chap attempting to hand out tracts and prostelytising in an enviably loud and clear voice. for the few times I passed him back and forth along the street no-one scoffed him or talked to him at all, no-one took a tract, and no-one even looked him in the eye.
I must assume that the normal social stigmas that go with seemingly talking to a crowd of no-one, the ignominy of being ignored, were overcome by his faith. I would not doubt his motives, but I wonder how the thinking goes. Does he believe that everyone around him needs saving and he is doing his best even if people don't want to hear it? He didn't sound mentally deranged, so lets rule that one out.
Does faith overcome social exclusion?
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Nov. 25 2007,16:56) Does faith overcome social exclusion?
Jesus thought so. His boys thought so. I dare say, everyone on this board would say so.Most Christians would take this “social exclusion” to the test by saying they would die for their faith. Many in our history already have.
Quote (kenrch @ Nov. 25 2007,08:19) I can see why your master sent you help
Uh oh Ken is evoking the man in the red suit again. Methinks he is scared of Lucifer, the same guy seen in Rev 22:16.Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 26 2007,03:05) Quote (kenrch @ Nov. 25 2007,08:19) I can see why your master sent you help
Uh oh Ken is evoking the man in the red suit again. Methinks he is scared of Lucifer, the same guy seen in Rev 22:16.
“The man in the red suit”? Santa Clause?!Stu……> the etymology of the word Faith doesn't come from the dictonary does it, it comes from the bible which was in existence way before the English dictionary was every published and like i said if you choose to look it up you will find the “etymology”does exactly match the bibles definition for the word. Its only in modern times has the word taken on a change in defintion, but if you will check out the “etymology” of the word you will find it matches the bible definition, which i expressed to you several times.
Today the word Faith simply means a supposition and you are right in thinking that most Christrodom believes that way, however not all do, some have (REAL EVIDENCE) hard proof. But again no matter how many examples i give you, even a still born daughter of mine who had been dead in her mother for weeks and was born dead stiff as a hard rubber doll and ash gray and the embonic fluid was green and wrotten and I was told ahead of time she was dead and I personelly took her when she was born, she was like a hard rubber doll, I shook her and not responce, so I gave her to a midwife and went out of the room and looked up to God and said” i couldn't believe You (God) did this to me and said I am going to call the elders and wanted Him (God) to restore life to the Her, and as soon as I called for the elders, I heard a baby crying and they came out of the room all crying and one of the midwifes told me she had been delievering babel for forty years and Never once seen that happen, she said the baby instentely came to life. There were four withness to it.
I could go on and on with the Mircales I have experienced in my life, But as i said before what good would that do you, NONE, you must be given your own Faith, I can't give it to you. But to assume other don't have their own Faith is a gross error on your part.Again you want the “ETYMOLOGY” of FAITH it's in the word of God, Ckeck it out for yourself. The true Faith is backed up with Proof's and is NOT a SUPPOSITION, at least in my case that is.
I told what you need to do if you want that proof for yourself, are you to fearfull to try?.
Try it Stu for yourself…………gene
Hi Gene
Just so we are clear, when I use the words faith, evidence and proof I mean this (stolen from Merriam-Webster):
faith
firm belief in something for which there is no proofevidence
1 a: an outward sign : indication b: something that furnishes proof : testimony; specifically : something legally submitted to a tribunal to ascertain the truth of a matter **(**ie: not a religious testimony)
proof
the cogency of evidence that compels acceptance by the mind of a truth or a fact b: the process or an instance of establishing the validity of a statement especially by derivation from other statements in accordance with principles of reasoningSo when you say you have evidence and proofs for your faith, you might appreciate why I find it hard to understand.
As for things of which I am fearful, they include fundamentalist christians getting their way telling lies to our children about human origins (whatever happened to the commandment about false witness?), end-times believers who have the ear of the man with his finger on the nuclear button, not being able to make basic choices for what I watch on television or can access at the pharmacist for medical needs because some christian group has succeeded in imposing their own world view on everyone. I don’t think I will be seeking a christian faith on the basis of these fears, do you?
Stuart
Stu…….> that's my point you are using a abridged Webster dictionary, and it leaves out the evidence part of the meanning. But what i am saying is that is not the original meaning of the word Faith, the Bible which preexists Webster's defination gave a different meaning of the word Faith, It includes the word (EVIDENCE) which we know is proof and not a supposition as the later changed meaning implies.
So if you choose to believe the modern definition of Webster's abridiged (which allows a change in the meanings of word expressions through time), then you are obviously putting it in front of what the bible say's is the meaning of the word Faith.
So if you see the word Faith as believing in somthing you can't prove as Webester's abridge say's, then you will always think that Faith is a supposition or an assumption without no basis of fact. Unfortunately thats the way most the world see's it also.
You as well as all have a right for your proof's, why would God, who is a God of proof ever want you or anyone else to believe in somthing they can't prove. God gives proof, just as it say's God has given to all a measure of Faith, if you look hard enough you will find it Stu.
My hope is that God will help you find true Faith Stu…….gene
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