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Hi Anthony,
http://www.wrestedscriptures.com/b08trinity/colossians1v15-16.html
This is a good website with a good explanation that Christ was not the first creation before the physical universe and that everything thereon was created by him.
From the author:
Colossians 1:15, 16
“Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created . . .”
Problem:
This passage is understood by J.W.’s to teach that “Jehovah” created his Son as his first creative act, and then subsequently performed all creative acts by His Son. Other religious bodies merely assert that this passage proves that Christ existed prior to his birth on the earth, since all the creative acts are ascribed to him.
Solution:
The Messianic prophecy in Psa. 89:27 indicates that the J.W. assertion, that “Jehovah” created his Son as his first creative act, is unscriptural. “Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth”1 proves that Christ was not the first-born prior to the creation narrative in Gen. 1 and 2, but rather Christ was not to be made first-born until many years after the Psalmist penned his words. (The Messianic character of the Psalm is indicated by comparing the following: vs. 26 cf. 2 Sam. 7:14; Heb. 1:5 and Psa. 89:35-37 cf. Psa. 72:1-8).“The firstborn of all creation” is qualified in verse 18 to be “the firstborn from the dead”. Frequently an apparently absolute declaration is limited in application. Consider the following examples in which “all” is clearly to be understood in a restricted sense:
“. . . there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.” (Luke 2:1). The “all” refers to the Roman world, not the areas of South, Central and North America.
“All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers . . .” (John 10:8). The “all” does not refer to John the Baptist and other prophets.
See also Gen. 3:20 (“all living” did not include the beasts); Gen. 6:13 (“all flesh” did not include Noah and the creatures taken into the ark.)The creation of which Christ is the first-born is the “creation” of new men and woman, and not the creation of light, dry land, etc. of Genesis. “Create” and “creation” are used of the work of Christ in this regenerative sense. Consider the following:
“For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.” (Eph. 2:10 cf. 4:23, 24).
“. . . for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace.” (Eph. 2:15).
See also Col. 3:9, 10 R.S.V.; Gal. 6:15; James 1:18; 2 Cor. 5:17.TC…..You certanily have that right, JESUS is the firstborn of the ‘new creation’ of God, and all things are made for him and for all who have the anointing Spirit of God on them at their resurection, JESUS THE FIRST FRUIT, AND WE AT HIS COMMING. ALL Things are made for MANKIND, JESUS FIRST THEN THE REST AT THE RESURECTION.
Heb 2:5-11 EXPLAINED IT ALL, for those who have ears to hear that is.
Peace and love to you and yours …….gene
Gene:
You: Anthony, TC……talk about “mystery religion”, man, I never saw so much added to scriptures as you people are adding, to push you preexistence thelogies, why not use the most simple reasons, the reason Melchizedek’s genogoligy was not known ,was because it was not given, that does not mean he did not have one, it just was not given in scripture.
Me: As far as I know, the genealogy of all patriarchs was given. Why wouldn’t Melchizedek’s be given? It is because he didn’t have one.
You: But if you will notice he still was a ‘man” so he had to have a genecology from some where in the human race. No where does say anyone “worshiped” him either.
Me: So you are saying that Melchizedek was a man? So then according to you he couldn’t have been Christ that existed thousands of years later. I believe that he was a theophany, just like the burning bush and the cloud that followed the Israelites. These were how God expressed himself through the Word. They came and went. Christ, on the other hand, had his humanity in the exact expression of God. You cannot tell me that the Isarelites made a distinction between the word or internal part of the manifestation of the external.
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/hebrews/7-4.htm
Heb 7:4 (Bible Hub) Consider how great this (3778:one) (was) to whom even a tenth Abraham out of the best spoils the patriarch.
Me: Notice one and not man in the above verse. One is the main definition of 3778 and not man.
You: Bowing to some one’s authority, does not equate you are worshiping them, we bow to Jesus, “to the Glory of God the Father”, that does not equate worshiping him as a God, i think not.Me: You think wrong.
Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. 23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
Me: God and his expression are one.
Romans 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Phil 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Me: God and his son are one God and should be worshipped as such.
Hi All
John the Baptist: For he will be great in the sight of the Lord; and he will drink no wine or liquor, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit while yet in his mother’s womb. (NASB) Luke 1:15
This is He on behalf of whom I said, “After me comes a Man who has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.” John 1:30 (NASB)
Jesus was born the Christ as it says in Luke 2:11, “for today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord,
CHRIST= the Anointed = Messiah
John was born with the Holy Spirit and so was Jesus Christ with Holy Spirit.
The author of Mark’s Gospel, writing at a time when all Christians accepted Jesus as Messiah, went even further, implying that it was at his baptism that Jesus became the Messiah. We read that when Jesus came out of the water he saw the heavens opened and the Spirit descended upon him like a dove and a voice came from heaven saying, “You are my beloved son; with you I am well pleased.”
This story gave rise in early Christian theology to what was called the “adoption theory” of the “Person of Christ.” In short, Jesus was born as an ordinary human being until God, at the time of his baptism by John, adopted him as his Son. This is why there are no birth stories in Mark. This view was eventually declared heretical though it continued to break out from time to time. It became heretical for the simple reason that the belief that Jesus became the Christ only at his baptism, still common when Mark was writing about 70 c.e.
The birth stories of Jesus in the Gospels of Matthew and Luke clearly intend to imply that Jesus was the Christ from the time he was he born. Whereas Matthew tends to emphasize that Jesus was born to be the King of Jews, Luke is more explicit, putting this into the mouth of the angels, “for to you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour who is Christ the Lord.
We find the purpose of John’s baptism so far as Messiah is concerned: “And I did not recognize Him, but in order that He might be manifested to Israel, I came baptizing in water” (John 1:31).
By means of the divine testimony, John was able to know Israel’s Messiah for certain. From that day on, John presented Jesus as the Messiah (cf. John 1:29-30,34).
The interpretation of the significance of our Lord’s baptism becomes even more evident when we consider the words of divine testimony: “This is My beloved Son, in Whom I am well-pleased” (Matt. 3:17).
God bless
Hi TC I don’t believe Jesus Christ was the first creation He was the firstborn of all creation.
Now I already know that it’s hard to understand that He was birth before all creation but I do.
Hi Gene
Hebrews 2:5-11
For one thing Gene you should study what the phrase ” Son of Man” means. Gene there are many titles of Jesus Christ. I don’t feel like going through them all. If you haven’t study these different titles you should. How you say that Jesus is another person is kind of lose apparently you don’t know who Jesus really is. Gene I believe that Jesus took on the form of a man, His Father prepared His body. Do you suppose that He might also be the Son of God the Christ, The Messiah , the Annoited One, the Only Begotten Son. The Prophet, the King, ect.ect.
Anthony, everyone here but you knows what a son of man means. Do you really think we are that stupid?, son of man is not a title either as you supose, a “son of man” is exactly what his is. It has nothing to do with somekind of title.
Man to what extent you preexistiners will go to, to spread you “mystery religion “. There exist not a single scripture that states Jesus existed before his berth on this earth in the entire bible, not one scriptures say Melchizedek, was JESUS either, THOSE ARE ALL SUPPOSITIONS, you get by forcing the text to fit your renditions of your own thinking. IMO
peace and love to you and yours. …….gene
Hi Gene I don’t think anyone is stupid I didn’t mean it that way. He wasn’t just another man.this is what you said in a different post.
Hebrews 2:5-11
For one thing Gene you should study what the phrase ” Son of Man” means. Gene there are many titles of Jesus Christ. I don’t feel like going through them all. If you haven’t study these different titles you should. How you say that Jesus is another person is kind of lose, apparently you don’t know who Jesus really is. Gene I believe that Jesus took on the form of a man, His Father prepared His body. Do you suppose that He might also be the Son of God the Christ, The Messiah , the Annoited One, the Only Begotten Son. The Prophet, the King, ect.ect. God bless Gene
Hi All,
Click on the link below. Notice that son in “Son of man” is capitalize only in the NT. And it almost invariable refers to the Messiah as “the Son of man” and not a son of man. In the OT it is “son of man”, sometimes “the son of man”. Thus according to this, Christ is “God’s son” of man, or the “Son of God” of man. Thus, we see an integration of the Word with man.
Similarly, there is ” son of God” only one time in the OT and that in reference to the coming the coming Messiah “like” the son of God.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/search/search.cfm?Criteria=the+son+of+man&t=KJV#s=s_primary_0_2John 1:14 And the Word was made (joined) flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Me The Word “Joined” is my emphasis from a discussion of this in the past. Christ is the only begotten or unique son of God in that we need to be baptized of the holy spirit to become adopted sons and co-inheritors with Christ. That includes inheritance of the name of God. Their was no son of God nor Christ before he was begotten. Should we worship the Messiah? By all means we should, for he is the expression of God in spirit and in body.
Similarly, there is ” son of God” only one time in the OT and that in reference to the coming the coming Messiah “like” the son of God.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/search/search.cfm?Criteria=the+son+of+God&t=KJV#s=s_primary_0_1
This link goes with the above post.
I guess no-one watched the videos I posted, not even Gene.
Oh yea, Gene does not have a free will, so I guess he’s excusedAnthony……when I say Jesus was a son of man I mean the same as we are , we are all sons of man ‘meaning son of mankind’ which means he was a flesh and blood human being, born through same berth process as we are. When I say he was an ordinary human being, it’s referencing his physical makeup his human roots, it had nothing to do with his titles. Jesus said he was a son of man over 60 times in scriptures, but you people try to seperate him from his human roots, by trying to make him different then we are, you move his berth away from the rest of us, you move his glory from us, you make him completely different the we are.
Anthony, You are playing right into Satan hands, because that is exactly what he want’s you to believe, he want’s us to all believe Jesus is COMPLETELY different then we are so we won’t think we can actually become like him. All satans servant preach a Jesus, completely different from his brothers and sisters, to destory their FAITH in God and turn Jesus into a God different from the rest of us. Jesus is no GOD, HE IS A SON OF MAN just as we are, he is a son of God just as we are also. Or haven’t you read this. ” I am going to my God and your God, my Father and your Father”, or perhaps this.
Eph 4:13 … Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a “perfect” man, and of the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:
Now here is what we really need to be concerned with HERE.
Eph 4:14…..That we be no more childern, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every WIND of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and CUNNING CRAFTINESS, whereby they lie in Wait to DECIEVE.
All who make Jesus different from his brothers and sister are decievers and doing the very work of the evil one himself. Just blind guides leading the blind. These decievers have turned the “IMAGE” of Jesus into a God, and worship him as such, turning the ‘IMAGE” of Jesus into a “man of sin”. Read it for yourself , 2 Ths 2. The “LIE” spoken of their is the lie about Jesus himself. That is how satan seperates Jesus’ IDENITY from the rest of us, his human brothers and sisters.
Anthony read it and put it together with you work of “seperation” of Jesus’ likeness from his human roots, and see where you stand.
Peace and love to you and yours. ……..gene
Hello All,
READ Hebrews 7 no part of this says Jesus pre-existed as Melchisedec. Jesus was MADE a high priest, BECAUSE he had been PERFECTED. Hebrews 7 compares the difference between the Levitical priesthood of which is obtained through bloodline verses the OATH God made concerning a different type of priesthood, where only one sacrifice needed to be made to forgive all sins.
Jesus is the high priest according to that oath that God had promised, ONE sacrifice and by that he became a high priest forever having received eternal life.
That sacrifice had to be a lamb without spot or blemish.
How was this lamb MADE perfect so it could be a sacrifice for our sins in the first place?
Hebrews 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; 10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.
Recall Matthew 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him,Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fullfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
RECALL Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles… 4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law. …6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; …8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
Hebrews 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that ANOTHER priest SHOULD RISE AFTER the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? 12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. 13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar. 14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood. 15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth ANOTHER priest, 16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. 18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. 19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God. 20 And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest: 21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec) 22 By so much was Jesus MADE a surety of a better testament. 23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death: 24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. 25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. 26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people’s: for this he did once, when he offered up himself. 28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.
RECALL Hebrews 6: 13 For when God MADE PROMISE to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself, 14 Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee…..20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, MADE an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Acts 26:23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the FIRST that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.
Galatians 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed……16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
JESUS was MADE a HIGH priest, NOT because he pre-existed, but because he was the PROMISE that God had given to Abraham and his SEED who would be anointed MADE the Christ, the MAN PERFECTED through God’s Spirit, where God held his hand and kept him from sin. Jesus was the human servant CALLED to righteousness. He has been appointed the king of righteousness and the king of peace because perfected human flesh died for our sins and then that flesh was not allowed to see decay but eternal life. He is a righteous judge because he suffered as we suffered. He is NOT a righteous judge or a righteous king because he pre-existed, “there ariseth ANOTHER priest”.
Hi Anthony,
YOU: The author of Mark’s Gospel, writing at a time when all Christians accepted Jesus as Messiah, went even further, implying that it was at his baptism that Jesus became the Messiah. We read that when Jesus came out of the water he saw the heavens opened and the Spirit descended upon him like a dove and a voice came from heaven saying, “You are my beloved son; with you I am well pleased.”
This story gave rise in early Christian theology to what was called the “adoption theory” of the “Person of Christ.” In short, Jesus was born as an ordinary human being until God, at the time of his baptism by John, adopted him as his Son. This is why there are no birth stories in Mark. This view was eventually declared heretical though it continued to break out from time to time. It became heretical for the simple reason that the belief that Jesus became the Christ only at his baptism, still common when Mark was writing about 70 c.e.
The birth stories of Jesus in the Gospels of Matthew and Luke clearly intend to imply that Jesus was the Christ from the time he was he born. Whereas Matthew tends to emphasize that Jesus was born to be the King of Jews, Luke is more explicit, putting this into the mouth of the angels, “for to you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour who is Christ the Lord.
ME: In all the Gospels we have the account of the Spirit of God descended upon Jesus, and we have Jesus then being sent out into the world performing signs and miracles, through that which Jesus performed upon his baptism and being sent out the people identified him as the Messiah. For those who knew prophecy and the scriptures they identified him as the Son of David, who God said He would call this son of David His Son, anointing him with His Spirit. This is why people call Jesus the Son of David in the gospels.
Matthew 21:9 And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna to the Son of David: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest.
Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
The birth stories in Matthew and Luke do not “clearly intend to imply that Jesus was the Christ from the time he was he born.” What is shown is that the authors are NOT IGNORANT to God’s promises and the words of the prophets, and are telling you that the child born is the child of Isaiah 7, the child that would fulfill Isaiah 42 and Isaiah 11, and Psalms 2. All NT scripture was not written before Jesus was raised from the dead, but AFTER, the authors spoke in full knowledge of ALL the prophecies that Jesus fulfilled. This man that rose from the dead and received the sure mercies of David as was promised to David’s son, is who Matthew and Luke speak of. They speak of Jesus as the biological son of David, they speak of Jesus knowing that he was the servant of Isaiah 42 who God would anoint with His Spirit and send him out to be a savior to the world, THROUGH his death, not his birth, where he first had to have his FLESH be anointed being CALLED to fulfill ALL righteousness.
1 Peter 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
The precious blood of Christ, the blood of the flesh that came down from heaven, anointed flesh and was sacrificed for us, by the suffering going to the cross this flesh was perfected, he had been anointed at the river where God would send him into the world, hold his hand and keep him, keep him to follow God’s will perfectly unto the cross. God would not give His glory to another but to this servant. Through this servant and his anointing, being made the Christ, and him being resurrected from the dead, do we have faith in God, as God fulfills His promise that He had spoken before the foundation of the world.
Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Anthony, the fullness of Christ does not equate to the infant Jesus being made Christ at his birth. The fullness of Christ was held in the infant that would grow to fulfill God’s word, that he would grow to be a servant and God would anoint him with His Spirit and call him TO FULFILL ALL righteousness, that righteousness was fulfilled upon him being perfected when he went to the cross. The fullness of Christ did not exist in an infant Jesus, it existed when Jesus learned obedience by what he suffered and through that became perfected.
Jodi…..BEAUTIFULLY PUT, but they just don’t get it. There God is Jesus , our God and JESUS’ God, is God the Father, who he trusted in AS we also trust in. We are growing IN SPIRIT to be one with JESUS AND THE FATHER, they are not, because they cannot TRULY relate with, our lord and brother Jesus, whom GOD THE FATHER RAISED FROM THE DEAD JUST LIKE HE WILL TO ALL THOSE WHO HAVE THE SPIRIT THAT WAS IN JESUS, IN THEM ALSO.
WE DO NOT “SEPERATE” JESUS FROM OUR OWN LIKENESS , WE ARE NOT OF THOSE WHO PUSH JESUS’ IDENITY AWAY FROM HIS HUMAN ROOTS, AS THEY DO.
They are ANTICHRISTS, (against the anointing of Jesus, at his baptizm by John) they even deny his comming into his existence as a human being from the root of DAVID. But Jesus said “I am the root and OFFSPRING of DAVID “.
JESUS SEEMS TO HANG ON TO HIS ROOTS , but THEY try tirelessly to destory it. They are antichrists and they preach what antichrists preach. They seek to moved our brother Jesus , who is the head of the family of God the Father away from his brothers and sisters, they are a cursed lot all who deny, JESUS’ HUMANITY.
But thanks be to God the Father, he has left a few, who will no follow their pernicious ways. Bless you JODI and all, who will not follow them.
Peace and love to you and yours. …….gene
It’s settled.
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe
He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
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