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LU,
I notice that after all the disagreement between you and me about Worship, you have not responded to anything that I wrote to you.
Are you still considering them?
Are you studying the verses with the aid of then Holy Spirit?
Are you convinced?Do you still meld 'praise, honor and glorify' with 'worship'? Where does the first turn into the second?
I, like you, don't like the 'logic' proofs, nor the 'word means this or could mean that' debates that take the focus of the proper debate but sometimes it is necessary so a barrier is formed dividing those that are 'casual or fairweather' seekers from genuine God fearing Seekers (Much the same way the parables are scripted).
Many places where Jesus and others are said to have been Worshipped are 'misinterpretation' of the word used. It is the Scripture TRANSLATERS who chose the specific word where others would equally apply textually…but further down the line might cause a problem.
As has been mentioned by others, EDJ, I think, and/or Mikeboll, Worship was typically carried out in the Temples through the High Priest to God Almighty and the sacrifice was a blood offering, typically an animal if sorts.
Now, the Jews, Pharasees, Sadducees, Scribes, Elders, etc, know that Worship is to God Almighty and to him alone.
Why then, when “Worship” is seen being given to Jesus, did NONE of them, being witnesses, even raise an outcry of Blasphemy?
I think the answer is crystal clear!
Jesus, on earth, was Total Man. Only by being Totally Man could he atone for our sins (Death by Sinfull man exchanged for Life by Sinless man)
Did the disciples knowingly, then, decide to 'worship' another man? No, what they did was 'Obeisence' which carries similar outward actions to 'Worship' but without the spiritual sacrificial element and thus was agreeable as a 'greeting' to one of high Honor, or for the act of Glorification.
Thus the Scriptures are in accordance and there is no ambiguity: Jesus was never WORSHIPPED by anyone and that is the reason He did not admonish those that did those acts of obeisence.
LU, your 'Praise, Honor and Glorifying' God and Christ is perfectly acceptable to God and Christ.
Just understand the difference between that and WORSHIP.
WORSHIP God and God alone.
Quote (JustAskin @ Feb. 21 2010,09:06) Kathi,
Even in Heaven, via the book of Revelation, John alludes to worship the angel who brought the testimony of Christ.The angel tells John:'See you do not do that for I am you fellow servant. WORSHIP GOD!'
Why does the angel, who is bringing the testimony of Christ Jesus, not say '…Worship God and Christ!'?
God, Himself says:'…Let all the angels of God WORSHIP [Jesus Christ]'(Hebrews 1:6)'
Why does God only state that the angels of God should worship Christ.
Hi JustAskin,
These are my thoughts on the subject, but, I believe that God instructed just the angels in Hebrews 1 to worship the Son because the angels were the audience of what was happening when the Son was annointed with gladness above His companions. I picture a ceremony situation where the Father is exalting the Son in the presence of the angels. People weren't present at that ceremony and that is why He doesn't tell people to worship the Son at that point. Remember that later on, this is going to happen:Phil 2:10-11
10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
NASUNow, my thoughts about John and the angel that John bows down to and the angel tells him to worship God…I think that it is the Father that gives the instruction to worship the Son. It is the Father's place to give that instruction and not the angel's place. If worship is meant for the Son to receive as well as the Father, it will be for the Father to give that right and I believe that He does as you can see in the passage above in Phillipians.
Kathi
LU
i don't think you understand that scripture in is context.
Phil 2:10-11
10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
NASULU,
What is described in Phil 2:10-11 is not Worship!
It is in accordance with Revelations where all creatures in heaven and earth…'Praise, Honor and Glorify' God and Christ.
The verses in Revelation say that God and the Lamb are honored, praised and glorified…but …only God (He who is, was, and is to come – the Almighty) is Worshipped.
Can you answer my other questions?
LU,
So you say that God only instructed the angels to 'worship' Jesus at his exaltation.
So, given the explicit wording that God uses to the angels, where in the Scriptures does Gid instruct mankibd to 'Worship' Jesus in similar explicit wording, or even, at all?
Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 21 2010,10:06) Mike,
My point is that wrestling with words does not in and of itself bring truth. I think that we already knew that the word for worship had different meanings. So, sorry, no light bulb.
Hi Kathi,I, for one never knew there was more than one definition of worship. In fact, I never even bothered to look it up before. In my mind worship was offering all you are and have up to God, and praising Him for the wonderful creations he's made, thanking him for blessings, and walking humbly in the knowledge that He alone is ultimately responsible for everything we are and have.
So, when I found the other definition of worship, “to love or admire very greatly”, I thought, well I guess I “worship” Jesus too. I'm just not going to word it that way.
About the praying, you said:
Quote Sometimes I have just said “Help me Lord” and instantly I am helped and protected. Could I have said that to the Son and it be effective. Yes, I believe that it could and was. But Jesus told the apostles to ask the FATHER for anything in his name, and it will be done.
You said:
Quote When I ask for things, I pray in Jesus' name to the Father. Good. But what I meant was: Do you ever pray, “Dear Jesus…” or “Dear God the Son…”?
Hi LU,
THose in Christ are empowered by the Spirit unto specific roles in him.[1 cor12]
They are not free to choose their own path and approach.
Service is appointed, not chosen.Quote (JustAskin @ Feb. 22 2010,04:02) Did the disciples knowingly, then, decide to 'worship' another man? No, what they did was 'Obeisence' which carries similar outward actions to 'Worship' but without the spiritual sacrificial element and thus was agreeable as a 'greeting' to one of high Honor, or for the act of Glorification.
Hi JA,You hit the nail right on the head, brother! I also assume that is what God meant in Hebrews 1:6. and Phillipians 2:10.
In the opinion I formed through what else is said in Scripture, God was saying let all the angels and all mankind do obeisance to Jesus as a person of honor and power. He wasn't saying Jesus would ever be worshipped as Jehovah.
Peace and love and keep up the good work
mikeQuote (JustAskin @ Feb. 21 2010,12:31) LU, What is described in Phil 2:10-11 is not Worship!
It is in accordance with Revelations where all creatures in heaven and earth…'Praise, Honor and Glorify' God and Christ.
The verses in Revelation say that God and the Lamb are honored, praised and glorified…but …only God (He who is, was, and is to come – the Almighty) is Worshipped.
Can you answer my other questions?
JustAskin,I would say that we have a different sense of what worship is. I believe that we can praise man for man's accomplishments and we can honor man for man's accomplishments and we can bring glory to a man for his accomplishments. I agree with you there and I would not consider that worship unless someone was making that man into their idol. So, I think that is the difference, if we lift up the object of the praise to the position of a god in our life, it turns to worship. It the person that we give worship to is not by nature god then we are foolish and worship in vain but if we worship that which is by nature god/God then we do well. I believe that the Father and the Son are both by nature my God. The Father first, and then the Son. Just as scriptures say:
1 Cor 8:6
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
NASUAs for the scriptures that you have given regarding worship, you seem to insist that something has to be given as a sacrifice beyond our praise and honor in order for there to be worship, well that is true. We need to have the attitude of losing our own life for the sake of Jesus.
Jesus speaking here:
Luke 9:24-25
24 “For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake, he is the one who will save it.
25 “For what is a man profited if he gains the whole world, and loses or forfeits himself?
NASUKathi
Mike,
It's great that you agree with my Holy Spirit inspired rendering.I am trying to appeal to Kathi to do the same.
However, there is resistance there and it is a funny thing because the more resistance there is the more it encourages me to search and study the Scriptures and refine my understanding.
So 'Thank You' Kathi and I hope you can respond to my questions after enquiring with Holy Spirited mind as to whether what has been channelled through me is Truth or otherwise.
If it is Holy Spirited then it is Truth.
If you are Holy Spiritfilled then you will read it as Truth.
There is only ONE HOLY SPIRIT and it is God Amighty's Holy Spirit.JA
is it yours ?or is it Gods view?and it can not be both ,if we understand truth from God is it not God who give it to you ??so is it yours ?? or Gods?
if we are slaves of God ,why is it that some can claim any rights to what there master owns.?
we always should give glory to God not to us.this is your comment JA;It's great that you agree with my Holy Spirit inspired rendering.
you claim glory .
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 21 2010,13:20) Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 21 2010,10:06) Mike,
My point is that wrestling with words does not in and of itself bring truth. I think that we already knew that the word for worship had different meanings. So, sorry, no light bulb.
Hi Kathi,I, for one never knew there was more than one definition of worship. In fact, I never even bothered to look it up before. In my mind worship was offering all you are and have up to God, and praising Him for the wonderful creations he's made, thanking him for blessings, and walking humbly in the knowledge that He alone is ultimately responsible for everything we are and have.
So, when I found the other definition of worship, “to love or admire very greatly”, I thought, well I guess I “worship” Jesus too. I'm just not going to word it that way.
About the praying, you said:
Quote Sometimes I have just said “Help me Lord” and instantly I am helped and protected. Could I have said that to the Son and it be effective. Yes, I believe that it could and was. But Jesus told the apostles to ask the FATHER for anything in his name, and it will be done.
You said:
Quote When I ask for things, I pray in Jesus' name to the Father. Good. But what I meant was: Do you ever pray, “Dear Jesus…” or “Dear God the Son…”?
Hi Mike,
I think that you have not grasped that I worship the Son 'as the Son' and not 'as the Father.' I believe that if I worshiped the Son as the Father, then I would need some enlightenment, some gentle correction.You say that you worship Jesus in the sense that you greatly love and admire Him. Do you feel the same about King David, or Peter or Paul?I don't know who you think Jesus is but is He just someone you “use” to get to God? Once you have been returned to the Father, is Jesus what, just the coolest saint? Or the highest angel? Or someone in between an angel and the Father that is more like the created angel than the uncreated Father?
Do you talk to an angel as you go about your day?
Do you talk to Jesus as you go about your day?
Do you have a personal relationship with only the Father and not the Son?
Can you have a personal relationship with both and it's ok?
Can you have a personal relationship with the Son and not talk to Him?
Does the Father and the Son abide in you or just the Father?When I talk to the Son, I could start out with “Dear Jesus” or I could say “Jesus…” does it really matter?
I have a slightly different relationship with the Son than I do with the Father but I have a relationship with both of them and both abide within me, not just the Father. They are both a part of what I consider my Godhead. If I only had one then I just have a God who doesn't save me. I need both for salvation and I want and need both for filling the 'God void' within my soul.
As far as your concerns about my prayer life: I might say something like “Jesus, thank you for giving up so much to come to earth to be an example for us.” I wouldn't say the same thing to the Father. To the Father, I might say “Father, thank you for always providing for your children and for this glorious universe that you have designed…You are so magnificent. To the Son, I might say, “Jesus, please forgive me for not treating that person like you would want me to…”
Why do I have a relationship with both of them? Because I want both of them and I need both of them. How do I have relationship with both of them-through the comforter, the Holy Spirit that we can receive from the Father through the Son.
Do you think that you just want one of them? Do you just need one of them? Is Jesus just someone that God designed to minister to you like the angels or is He something more?
Is He your Lord? Is the Father Lord? Are we supposed to worship the Lord? Is Jesus YOUR Lord or just a lord? Did you know that David referred to Jesus as “His Lord?”
To me, when the context refers to the Father as God and the Son as the Lord, there is an indication of one being higher than the other but both a member of whom I follow and serve and worship as my ultimate authority and both who fill my 'God void.'
I don't look to angels to fill my 'God void' but I look to the Father and the Son.
Well, I've rambled on…sorry if I wasn't direct enough but this was on my heart.
Kathi
Quote (JustAskin @ Feb. 22 2010,05:45) However, there is resistance there and it is a funny thing because the more resistance there is the more it encourages me to search and study the Scriptures and refine my understanding.
Hi JA,That's why I love this site. I'm learning daily and getting faster at remembering certain Scriptures. Peter said:
Quote But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,
I want to always be prepared to defend my beliefs, and Kathi, Wj, tt and the others help me to do that.P.S. I think Terra took your comment wrong. I read it as giving glory to God that His Holy Spirit is what is leading you to your rendering.
peace and love,
mikeAnother thing on my mind,
I think that Mike and terraricca or JustAskin pointed out that the Pharisees didn't get all uppity when Jesus was worshiped and that would indicate that it was more of an act of honor. Well, I don't believe the Pharisees were around to witness those incidents and I don't think they would have approved of an act of honor anyway if they were.Hi LU,
Paul told us the relationship between man and wife was similar to that between Jesus and his church.
We honor our spouses and grow ever closer to them as years pass.
Such unity in love and understanding is the way.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 21 2010,14:47) Hi LU,
Godhead?
What is a godhead??
Nick,
You keep asking that. Paul answers that:1 Cor 8:6
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
NASUKathi,
You are doing well.I think you have enough from me now to decide for yourself whether you do right 'by the Holy Spirit'.
By the way, even TT praised the rendering of 'worship' that I wrote and claimed that I must have copied it from somewhere!!!
Thank you, TT, but no, I didn't copy it from anywhere. It was inspired by the Holy Spirit.
Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 22 2010,06:42) Hi Mike,
I think that you have not grasped that I worship the Son 'as the Son' and not 'as the Father.
Hi Kathi,Wow! That's a lot of questions!
Quote You say that you worship Jesus in the sense that you greatly love and admire Him. First of all, I will never again say that I worship Jesus because of the confusion that could create. I simply confess that I love and admire him very greatly.
Quote Do you feel the same about King David, or Peter or Paul? I imagine I would do obeisance to them as people of honor as I will do to Jesus. I would also do the same for the 144,000 who will rule with Christ.
Quote is Jesus what, just the coolest saint? Or the highest angel? Or someone in between an angel and the Father that is more like the created angel than the uncreated Father? Your third choice is what I believe.
Quote 1.Do you talk to an angel as you go about your day?
2.Do you talk to Jesus as you go about your day?
3.Do you have a personal relationship with only the Father and not the Son?
4.Can you have a personal relationship with both and it's ok?
5.Can you have a personal relationship with the Son and not talk to Him?
6.Does the Father and the Son abide in you or just the Father?
1. No
2. No
3. I am working on a personal relationship with the Father. But because He is Holy, and I am far from it, I can only communicate with Him through Jesus.
4. I hope someday to have a personal relationship with Jesus. But for now I pray to God through Jesus as the Holy Scriptures teach. I do not talk to Jesus.
5. No.
6. I believe Father and Son abide in heaven. God's Spirit does flow through me, however.Quote If I only had one then I just have a God who doesn't save me. I need both for salvation and I want and need both for filling the 'God void' within my soul. This is the main fallicy of your Godhead belief. God is the one who saved mankind by sacrificing His only Son for us. God cannot be reached by mankind anymore because of our great sins. So God set up Jesus as a channel to Him. Yes, Jesus is great. Yes, I love him for his part in our salvation. But God is the ultimate Savior. God has used many people to save His people. Jesus is not to be prayed to for blessings and such, Jesus is the channel through which we pray to Jehovah for blessings and such. You should always talk to God and pray to God. You should not walk around talking to Jesus or angels or Elijah the prophet.
Quote Is He your Lord? Is the Father Lord? Are we supposed to worship the Lord? Is Jesus YOUR Lord or just a lord? Did you know that David referred to Jesus as “His Lord?” Jesus is my Lord. Jehovah is my God. I give Godly worship and prayer to only God. Not anyone else, even if they have the “nature of God”.
Quote Well, I don't believe the Pharisees were around to witness those incidents and I don't think they would have approved of an act of honor anyway if they were. Read John 9:38-40.
Quote I don't look to angels to fill my 'God void' but I look to the Father and the Son. Look to the “only true God” (Jesus' words) to fill you God-void.
peace and love,
mike
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