The most high god

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 17 2010,16:51)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 18 2010,08:11)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 17 2010,16:10)

Hi WJ,
They knew from Ps2 the unusual nature of God's Son given full authority on earth to work as God's agent. They should have known from the same verses that he was not that God. Do you?

Are you calling John a liar?

He is the one that narrated Jesus being equal to God!

How can any being be equal to God and not be God?

Hi WJ,
So if John reports the sayings of the confused it means he agrees with them?

I thought you believed in logic?

Look again, it is John's own words that is saying Jesus claim to be the Son of God meant equality with God!

Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, “making himself equal with God.“ John 5:18

John doesn't claim they said “God was his Father, and accused Jesus of making himself equal with God”.

Blessings WJ

February 17, 2010 at 10:22 pm#178725

Participant

Hi WJ,
And you believe this is what John himself thought??

February 17, 2010 at 10:25 pm#178726

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 17 2010,17:22)

Hi WJ,
And you believe this is what John himself thought??

He started this Gospel with this didn't he?

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and “the Word was God“. John 1:1

Do you see any inequality in this verse between the “Word” and “God”?

February 17, 2010 at 10:27 pm#178727

Participant

TT,
You are so shameless.

'Honor the Son…', what did you think you saw that you could prove a victory over me?
That 'Honor the Son…' meant 'Worship the Son'?
Then what of Psalms 8:5:'For You have made him (Man) a little lower than the angels, And You have crowned him (Man) with GLORY and HONOR.'

Is God Worshipping Man that He made?

February 17, 2010 at 10:31 pm#178728

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 18 2010,09:25)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 17 2010,17:22)

Hi WJ,
And you believe this is what John himself thought??

He started this Gospel with this didn't he?

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and “the Word was God“. John 1:1

Do you see any inequality in this verse between the “Word” and “God”?

Hi WJ,
Any progress on the subject of equality between two shatters the illusion you are monotheistic

February 17, 2010 at 10:38 pm#178730

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 17 2010,17:31)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 18 2010,09:25)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 17 2010,17:22)

Hi WJ,
And you believe this is what John himself thought??

He started this Gospel with this didn't he?

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and “the Word was God“. John 1:1

Do you see any inequality in this verse between the “Word” and “God”?

Hi WJ,
Any progress on the subject of equality between two shatters the illusion you are monotheistic

Didn't think you could answer the question as usual!

Are you calling John a Polytheist?

February 17, 2010 at 10:49 pm#178731

Participant

WJ,

You guys are truly amazing!

Matthew 27:42-44: “He saved others; Himself He cannot save. If He is King of the Israel, let Him now come down from the cross, and we will believe Him.
He trusted in God; Let Him (God) deliver Him (Jesus) now if He (God) will have Him(Jesus); for He (Jesus) said, 'I am the Son of God'”…'even the robbers reviled Him(Jesus)…'

This was said by the chief priests, scribes and elders who knew all the laws and Scriptures.

There is not a single hint nor suggestion that anyone (including Matthew) of them thought that Jesus was God – or a God of any sort.
They openly say that Jesus claimed that he was the Son of God but yet denigrade his abilities to that of 'non-God' even saying that God had to save him from the cross.

If they thought He was God why did he need God!!! to save him???

February 17, 2010 at 10:53 pm#178732

Participant

Hi WJ,
You clearly worship at least two but no John was a follower of Jesus and his God.

February 17, 2010 at 10:57 pm#178734

Participant

Quote (JustAskin @ Feb. 17 2010,11:19)

Worship is the giving over of oneself entirely to another, complete selflessness and absolute servitude – a Sacrifice – literally giving your life (Spirit) for use by another – and for this reason God disapproves of such acts – because ONLY HE should you give over yourself to in such a way – It was HE who gave you life and ONLY to Him should you give it back.

Jesus also said he was “The Life”! John 14:6 John said he was “The Life and light of men”, John 1:4

Jesus also said he was “The Resurrection and the Life”, John 11:25!

Jesus is the very source of our salvation, life and our faith! Heb 5:9, Heb 12:2

Not only that, but he claimed that no man can come to God but by him! John 14:6

These kinds of claims for just a mere man would be considered Heresy, Idolatry, and Blasphemy by the Hebrews!

Blessings WJ

February 17, 2010 at 11:03 pm#178735

Participant

Quote (JustAskin @ Feb. 17 2010,17:49)

WJ,

You guys are truly amazing!

This was said by the chief priests, scribes and elders who knew all the laws and Scriptures.

If they thought He was God why did he need God!!! to save him???

Whats amazing is you guys think that the term “God” is exclusive to the Father!

You have a birds eye view of the scriptures. You pick and choose what you want that agrees with your Christology!

You forget that John and others wrote about Jesus being God and insist that your Arianistic view is correct!

Why do you deny the scritpures like John 1:1 and others that we have shown you?

Why do you refuse the “Whole council of God” found in the written scriptures?

You do not have to answer, for we know the answer.

But I pray that some day you will see that Jesus is everything to you that God is to be to us!

Blessings WJ

February 17, 2010 at 11:08 pm#178736

Participant

Quote (JustAskin @ Feb. 17 2010,17:49)

There is not a single hint nor suggestion that anyone (including Matthew) of them thought that Jesus was God – or a God of any sort.

Why did John write John 1:1?

Of course his enemys didn't think that Jesus was God, yet they accused him by his own words that he was making himself equal to God by calling God his Father!

Read your Bible and go and see what the Jew believed it meant for someone to claim God was their “OWN” Father!

They believed that Jesus was saying he was equal to the Father and the Apostle John clarified what it meant for him to say that God was his Father! John 5:23

Blessings WJ

February 17, 2010 at 11:25 pm#178737

Participant

WJ,

I see that all your trinitarians 'proofs' have come down to one verse: John 1:1!

February 17, 2010 at 11:27 pm#178738

Participant

I haven't looked closely at that nor asked for Holy Spirit help but if you want to challenge me on it then just ask me!

February 18, 2010 at 12:45 am#178744

Elizabeth

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 18 2010,10:08)

Quote (JustAskin @ Feb. 17 2010,17:49)

There is not a single hint nor suggestion that anyone (including Matthew) of them thought that Jesus was God – or a God of any sort.

Why did John write John 1:1?

Of course his enemys didn't think that Jesus was God, yet they accused him by his own words that he was making himself equal to God by calling God his Father!

Read your Bible and go and see what the Jew believed it meant for someone to claim God was their “OWN” Father!

They believed that Jesus was saying he was equal to the Father and the Apostle John clarified what it meant for him to say that God was his Father! John 5:23

Blessings WJ

W.J. John 1:1 The Word is God but not the Jehovah God. He is not equal with Jehovah God. God is a title, used many times in Ancient History for just about any one in power. Also Satan is called the God of this World. Thee is also a very good Scripture in Rev. 19:13 He was clothed with a rob dipped in Blood and His name is called the Word of God. Also in
Hebrew 1:8 God the Father is calling Jesus God. So many fall over this, which is not contradicting all other Scriptures that tell us that our Heavenly Father is above all, like in
Ephesians 4:6
You like to use that Scripture to think and prove the trinity
doctrine but it does not, when you know that God is a title.
You know I have given all other Scriptures so I don't think I have to do that again….
It is a men made doctrine and not of God.
Does Quintus Septimus Florens Tertullian sound familiar?

Peace and Love Irene

February 18, 2010 at 12:51 am#178746

Lightenup

Participant

Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 17 2010,01:15)

Kathi! I have thought about this some time ago. I worship God the Father through Jesus Christ who is our Mediator to do so. When Scriptures that you pointed out say in
John 9:38 what I think happened there is that He said :”Lord I believe and then “He worshipped Him. Could it be that He still was worshipping the Father through Christ? You know when I read that the Father is above all, I also believe that the Father deserves to only be worshipped. God the Father cannot look on Sin and since we have a sinful nature, we need Christ to pray to the Father. We are then made one with them, by the Holy Spirit that dwells in us. We have several Scriptures that tell us that the Father is greater then the Son. And IMO even Christ I don't think wants us to pray to Him. IMO that was just an misunderstanding of the translators. I could be wrong just like any of us can.
But I always pray to our Heavenly Father through Christ our Savior. I honor Him and know how much He loves His Father and that is what I am doing. I love both and respect both. But worship belongs only to the Father IMO. You know otherwise what is the difference. I also know that most Churches today always just Jesus, Jesus and Jesus, and forget our Heavenly Father…Most worship lyrics are written that way.
I have a question for you. In most of your posts you always add in the glory of the Father……Why?
You know also because of the trinity doctrine it does not matter to most Christians today. All is equal. Not to me and never will be…..
Peace and Love Irene

Hi Irene,
How are you?
I understand what you believe. You also believe that Jesus is a created being and I don't. I think there lies a big difference. If I thought that He was a created being, I wouldn't worship him. I guess that I place the Son of God really, really, really high…just short of the Father. Maybe you don't see Him as that high and so you see a big gap between the two and a small gap between the Son and the angels. Perhaps that is why we feel differently. I place Jesus in the Godhead of one God, the Father and one Lord, Jesus Christ. Perhaps you wouldn't do that, I don't know. I think that “God” is more than a title. It can be a title, but I think that it has more to do with the nature of the being along with their level of authority. I believe the Father is the Most High God because He always existed and I believe the Son is God because He came from one with a God/god nature. I do not equate them as both equal to the Father, but I see them as equally having the nature of God/god.

You asked why I write that I worship Jesus to the glory of God. I do that because I believe the Son of God is God's highest achievement and a glory to Him. So, when I worship the Son, it reflects on the awesomeness of the Father. It is because of the Father that the Son is so worthy because He fathered Him.

Do you feel happy or jealous when someone honors your son? When someone honors my sons, it is a delight to me. I do not feel threatened in any way…just so happy. So when I exalt the Son, I do it also for the Father's glory. Understand?

Love,
Kathi

February 18, 2010 at 12:51 am#178747

Elizabeth

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 25 2010,09:47)

Hi Irene,
But as one of the US of 1 Cor 8 you know he is your Lord and his God is our God.

Yes, Nick God our Heavenly Father is LORD and Jesus is Lord. And God is a title….
Irene

February 18, 2010 at 1:22 am#178753

Elizabeth

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 18 2010,11:51)

Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 17 2010,01:15)

Love,
Kathi

Kathi! But Scriptures does say that He was t he firstborn of all creation. Whether it is created or came forth from the Father, like it says in Proverbs 8, really does not matter as much as that we know He is our Savior and Lord of Lords and King of Kings and He deserves all Honor and glory, but our Heavenly Father deserves worship.
In with that I differ with you.
It says in the great Commandment to Love our LORD God with all of our Hearts and with all of our Souls and with all of our mind. Scripture also say that He is a Jealous God, there are several Scriptures that tell us that. When it says there is only One LORD God, don't you think that then we should only worship Jehovah God? Georg and I do agree on that. I also believe that others do too. Even if I would stand alone, to me Jehovah God is all knowing and Jesus is His Son and does what His Father tells Him to do. I don't believe that you think that I don't think Christ is, how did you put it….I hold Him in high esteem and Honor and give Him all glory, but not worship. I don't think I am taking anything away from Christ. Christ is the head of the Church, us and the head of Christ is God the Father. There lies the difference. Just like man is the head of the woman, But you would not think that today….. all is equal, just like the trinity….
And Satan has but a short time left and he is real busy…..

If we disagree, so we do, but I still like you…..:)
Peace and Love Irene

February 18, 2010 at 1:42 am#178757

seekingtruth

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 18 2010,02:36)

Quote (seekingtruth @ Feb. 17 2010,15:19)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 18 2010,00:57)

Quote (seekingtruth @ Feb. 17 2010,21:46)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 16 2010,23:38)

Hi ST,
Does God have a bodily form??
He is invisible.

You deny the human vessel Jesus.
Is it wise to deny the Son of our God?

Nick,
Hebrews 11:27
By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the king's anger; he persevered because he saw him who is invisible.

How did Moses see “God”

Colossians 1:15
He is the image of the invisible God,

Could it of been His Son?

Genesis 32:30
It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.”

Was it the invisible Father he saw and wrestled with?

John 14:9
Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father.

Scripture supports that the Father is seen through His Son so I maintain that if I'm seeing the Father when I look at Jesus and I worship, it is the Father who is being worshipped

John 1:18
No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.

As to denying the human vessel, do you believe that Jesus is still just a corruptible human? I in no way implied or even believe that Jesus was anything more then 100% human from conception to resurrection, I do believe that He was more before and after said time period.

Now I also believe He had authority and power given to Him during His life on earth, but not the ALL authority and power He has now.

My opinion, Wm

Hi ST,
We should believe Jesus when he said none have seen God. Many have been blessed to see some manifestation of God but none have seen Him.

Hi Nick,
Jacob did not see a manifestation of God but in his own words “I saw God face to face”, so how is it that none have seen God? which verse do I rip out?

Unless it is the Father that none have ever seen and those who did “see” God in the OT saw the very image and nature of God (a title) in Jesus.

My opinion, Wm

Seeking

Why is it that the word “God” is a title only when it is applied to Jesus, as if to say he is not God?

If God is only a title then how can you claim that it would mean something different when applied to the Father, since Jesus is not in the same class as false gods?

If calling Jesus God means he is not God, then how can you say that calling the Father God means he is?

Seems circular to me!

Blessings WJ

Because I believe what the Father is, is greater than Jesus, but Jesus is everything that we in this reality can ever hope to perceive of God.

My opinion, Wm

February 18, 2010 at 1:57 am#178762