- This topic is empty.
- Posts
hello. before making any statement 'bout jehovah's angel being jehovah himself (a too hasty conclusion), it´s vital to consider what is downwritten in Exodus 23:21. Have y'all ever red it? GOD put His Own Name, or authority, on an special Angel for this one to act in behalf of That One; The Angel would play the role, not of Jehovah Himself in person, but of His representative in his dealings with the nation of Israel; Evidently, this same Angel is “the Prince of The Army of Jehovah” spoken of in Joshua 5:14; perhaps he still be “The Great Prince Standing in Behalf of The Sons of [Daniel´s] People” mentioned in Daniel 12:1. Interestingly, Jesus Christ is prophetically named as “The Prince of Peace”, and “The Prince of Princes”…(Isaiah 9:6; Daniel 8:25) will jesus christ be The Angel of Jehovah, the One With God´s Name on Him, Michael The Chief Angel? Keep on searching… It´s far better than toughtlessly believing that God´s Son is God himself, that God himself is His Own Son, that God´s Son is His Own Father, that they both are the Spirit, dat tha Spirit is His own Son and Father, that they are, not three (!!?) but One… that Mary is actually God´s Mather (!!!!):p
Quote (thethinker @ Aug. 03 2009,02:13) Genesis 16:9-13: 9And the Messenger of Jehovah saith to her, `Turn back unto thy mistress, and humble thyself under her hands;'
10and the Messenger of Jehovah saith to her, `Multiplying, I multiply thy seed, and it is not numbered from multitude;'
11and the Messenger of Jehovah saith to her, `Behold thou [art] conceiving, and bearing a son, and hast called his name Ishmael, for Jehovah hath hearkened unto thine affliction;
12and he is a wild-man, his hand against every one, and every one's hand against him — and before the face of all his brethren he dwelleth.'
13And she calleth the name of Jehovah who is speaking unto her, `Thou [art], O God, my beholder;' for she said, `Even here have I looked behind my beholder?'
In verse 10 the Messenger of Jehovah said, “I multiply they seed.” This means that the Messenger of Jehovah is also Jehovah. And in verse 13 Hagar identified the Messenger of Jehovah as Jehovah God, “And she calleth the name of of Jehovah who is speaking with her…. 'O God, my beholder….”
So God is NOT a solitary Being as anti-trinitarians say. He is a plural Being.
thinker
What is more logical?That the messenger of Jehovah is speaking as directly quoting God's very words, or that the messenger is not really a messenger of God but actually God Himself?
If the scriptures says it is God's messenger, THEN IT IS NOT God, but is then TRULY His messenger, and thus it should be obvious that the messenger is Speaking FOR God on behalf of God, quoting God.
Quote (Jodi Lee @ Aug. 05 2009,05:04) Quote (thethinker @ Aug. 03 2009,02:13) Genesis 16:9-13: 9And the Messenger of Jehovah saith to her, `Turn back unto thy mistress, and humble thyself under her hands;'
10and the Messenger of Jehovah saith to her, `Multiplying, I multiply thy seed, and it is not numbered from multitude;'
11and the Messenger of Jehovah saith to her, `Behold thou [art] conceiving, and bearing a son, and hast called his name Ishmael, for Jehovah hath hearkened unto thine affliction;
12and he is a wild-man, his hand against every one, and every one's hand against him — and before the face of all his brethren he dwelleth.'
13And she calleth the name of Jehovah who is speaking unto her, `Thou [art], O God, my beholder;' for she said, `Even here have I looked behind my beholder?'
In verse 10 the Messenger of Jehovah said, “I multiply they seed.” This means that the Messenger of Jehovah is also Jehovah. And in verse 13 Hagar identified the Messenger of Jehovah as Jehovah God, “And she calleth the name of of Jehovah who is speaking with her…. 'O God, my beholder….”
So God is NOT a solitary Being as anti-trinitarians say. He is a plural Being.
thinker
What is more logical?That the messenger of Jehovah is speaking as directly quoting God's very words, or that the messenger is not really a messenger of God but actually God Himself?
If the scriptures says it is God's messenger, THEN IT IS NOT God, but is then TRULY His messenger, and thus it should be obvious that the messenger is Speaking FOR God on behalf of God, quoting God.
Jodi Lee,
Your argument is circular because you assume that God is a solitary Being. He is in fact a plural Being. Moses said that the one who was speaking with Hagar is Jehovah,Quote 13And she calleth the name of Jehovah who is speaking unto her…., Moses contrsadicts you. The messenger was both Jehovah and “truly” a messenger.
Then Hagar says of the Messenger “I have actually seen God.” You cannot deny what I am saying if you restrict yourself to just exegeting the text. So you impose your presuppositions instead.
thinker
Thinker………Does Moses contradict what Jesus said too, “no man has seen GOD at (ANYTIME)”. But you say that is a lie Hagar and Moses has. Moses only saw the (GLORY of GOD) as it passed before Him. Hagar only saw the Hand of GOD in Her life. God is SPIRIT and you can't see SPIRIT. “for the spirit is like the wind” , you can see the effects and hear the sound of it, but you can not see it. So is everyone born of SPIRIT, You can't see where its coming from or where it going. Jesus said GOD is SPIRIT. Thinker thats the problem with Trinitarian teaching it is a product of delusion. 2Ths 2……..IMO
peace and love…………………….gene
Quote (Gene @ Aug. 06 2009,14:56) Thinker………Does Moses contradict what Jesus said too, “no man has seen GOD at (ANYTIME)”. But you say that is a lie Hagar and Moses has. Moses only saw the (GLORY of GOD) as it passed before Him. Hagar only saw the Hand of GOD in Her life. God is SPIRIT and you can't see SPIRIT. “for the spirit is like the wind” , you can see the effects and hear the sound of it, but you can not see it. So is everyone born of SPIRIT, You can't see where its coming from or where it going. Jesus said GOD is SPIRIT. Thinker thats the problem with Trinitarian teaching it is a product of delusion. 2Ths 2……..IMO peace and love…………………….gene
Gene,
I have answered this already and I will not answer again.thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 07 2009,07:32) Hi TT,
You will not support your own ideas or have you moved on?
I answered Gene's question before. I would repeat myself if he would listen which he will not.thinker
Thethinker I believe you may be a bit confisued on this one.
As a trinitarian I do believe in The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit in the sense that the Father Maniefested his Wisdom and Word into identities.The Word became flesh to die for us, and the Wisdom dwells within us to help us live righteously.
Both literally come from God.
But, in the OT Messenger of Jehovah, in Hebrew is CORRECTLY translated as “THE ANGEL of The Lord”
This was an angel that served as a medium for God. Why?
Because God is invisible and unknowable.
Man cannot look at God and survive he is to infinite for us to fathom and just a mere tickle of his true presence would destroy us. As it is stated in the scripture “we'll die if we look upon the lord”
So he used an Angelic Medium to communicate through so that we may not die interacting with him.
So for Moses to call The Angel Jehovah would be correct as he is identifying Jehovah while paying no regard to the medium.
If you talk to a psychic medium (blasphemy, but a good example for understanding)
When they make contact with demons, the interpreters talk to the medium as if they were talking directly to the person, not the medium.
In this sense this is how the Lord was communicating through his Angel.
Jodi Lee said:
Quote There exist NO OTHER where power, wisdom and authority ORIGINATES, anyone with such things RECEIVES them from YHWH, and not only that but they use them according to the will and directions of YHWH!! thethinker replied:
Quote And Jesus is YHWH: Quote Thus says YHWH, the King of Israel,
And his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts:‘ I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.Who was Israel's King and Redeemer?
Check one:
1. the Father [ ]
2. Moses [ ]
3. Jesus [ ]If you choose number one then Israel had two Kings and two Redeemers. Jesus' authority was both derived and innate. His authority was derived because He yielded it up and the Father gave it back to Him. That He yielded it up shows that His authority was also innate. No rocket science degree is needed.
thinker
Jodi Lee:
Quote So you then believe that YHWH is his own son, and Jesus is his own father? 
OP on this thread by thethinker:
Genesis 16:9-13:
9And the Messenger of Jehovah saith to her, `Turn back unto thy mistress, and humble thyself under her hands;'
10and the Messenger of Jehovah saith to her, `Multiplying, I multiply thy seed, and it is not numbered from multitude;'
11and the Messenger of Jehovah saith to her, `Behold thou [art] conceiving, and bearing a son, and hast called his name Ishmael, for Jehovah hath hearkened unto thine affliction;
12and he is a wild-man, his hand against every one, and every one's hand against him — and before the face of all his brethren he dwelleth.'
13And she calleth the name of Jehovah who is speaking unto her, `Thou [art], O God, my beholder;' for she said, `Even here have I looked behind my beholder?'
In verse 10 the Messenger of Jehovah said, “I multiply they seed.” This means that the Messenger of Jehovah is also Jehovah. And in verse 13 Hagar identified the Messenger of Jehovah as Jehovah God, “And she calleth the name of of Jehovah who is speaking with her…. 'O God, my beholder….”
So God is NOT a solitary Being as anti-trinitarians say. He is a plural Being.
thinker
Hi TT,
So God does His own messages but hides Himself under the title of messenger or angel?
Perhaps WJ will rush to assist you this time ?Hi TT,
So when an angel of God speaks for God it becomes God, or is God actually an angel?
Is every angel God ?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 05 2009,07:40) Hi TT,
So when an angel of God speaks for God it becomes God, or is God actually an angel?
Is every angel God ?
Nick,
Take it up with Moses when you see him. It was Moses who said that the messenger was Jehovah. Moses speaking said,Quote Then she called the name of Jehovah who spoke with her, You are the God who sees; for she said, “Have I also seen him who sees me.” (Genesis 16:13) Moses called the messenger by the name “Jehovah.” Then Hagar called the messenger she saw, “The God who sees me.”
Who did Hagar see Nick? She saw the messenger and called Him “The God who sees me.” God will not write it in the sky for you. For if you do not believe His word then you will not believe if He wrote it in the sky just for you.
Read it Nick without all your special pleading. ”
thinker
Hi TT,
Your understanding is limited.
God uses all sorts of messengers to speak for him.
None of them are the God Who uses them to speak through any more than the donkey of balaam.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 04 2009,18:07) Hi TT,
Your understanding is limited.
God uses all sorts of messengers to speak for him.
None of them are the God Who uses them to speak through any more than the donkey of balaam.
NHSo what you are saying is God is not powerful enough to change his form?
WJ
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 05 2009,10:07) Hi TT,
Your understanding is limited.
God uses all sorts of messengers to speak for him.
None of them are the God Who uses them to speak through any more than the donkey of balaam.
You're speaking a falsehood Nick. Moses clearly says that the messenger was Jehovah and Hagar said of the messenger she saw with her own eyes, “The God who sees me.”You contradict inspiration Nick and you are so arrogant about it too.
thinker
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 04 2009,08:37) Hi Gene Quote (Gene @ Aug. 03 2009,15:55) Just jump from here to there never coming to the truth, never believing Jesus' own words. It amazes me WJ. Who is not believing his words Gene?
Jesus knew that the Father had put all things under his power, and that “he had come from God and was returning to God“; John 13:3
“For I came down from heaven“, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. John 6:38
Why do you not believe his words?
How long will you go without addressing these scriptures?
WJ
WJ, what PART of the infant BOY, was the ONE TRUE GOD?Scripture tells us that God was going to SEND a Messiah, and indeed God did send a Messiah, what scripture does not say is that He was going to send Himself known as God the son. STICK with SCRUPTURE!!
Christ was foreknown in the beginning……but manifested later, and he came down as the Bread of Life came down from heaven, under the direct will and plan of our one true God the Father. The manna that came from heaven was made on earth, and the Messiah that came down from heaven was also made on earth, in the womb of Mary.
Jesus was a human who did not follow after his own will, after the WILL of the FLESH, instead he denied his flesh to his death, perfectly following the Father's will. Proving that MAN could be made righteous and perfect in God's sight. Creating a whole REASON why YHWH would create the earth in the first place!! Jesus is still a human born of the seed of David firstborn of the dead, and He will lead the rest of mankind into the awesome and glorious New heaven and earth, where human beings flesh and bone like the raised Jesus, will live in peace and hormony together.
Hi Jodi,
The world was in darkness under the satanic rule of the god of this world when Adam was created.
The first man was defeated by that serpent and became a follower of that god.
The second Adam was sent to bring grace and truth.The light dispels the darkness and the domain of Satan has been overthrown by the king riding on a donkey.
We too are enabled to be given grace to join with Jesus and help in the restoration of earth.
It is finished in prophecy but the freeing of the slaves continues.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 06 2009,11:04) Hi Jodi,
The world was in darkness under the satanic rule of the god of this world when Adam was created.
The first man was defeated by that serpent and became a follower of that god.
The second Adam was sent to bring grace and truth.The light dispels the darkness and the domain of Satan has been overthrown by the king riding on a donkey.
We too are enabled to be given grace to join with Jesus and help in the restoration of earth.
It is finished in prophecy but the freeing of the slaves continues.
Yes, and Jesus says the god of this world is our belly, our own flesh!!
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
