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Genesis 16:9-13:
9And the Messenger of Jehovah saith to her, `Turn back unto thy mistress, and humble thyself under her hands;'
10and the Messenger of Jehovah saith to her, `Multiplying, I multiply thy seed, and it is not numbered from multitude;'
11and the Messenger of Jehovah saith to her, `Behold thou [art] conceiving, and bearing a son, and hast called his name Ishmael, for Jehovah hath hearkened unto thine affliction;
12and he is a wild-man, his hand against every one, and every one's hand against him — and before the face of all his brethren he dwelleth.'
13And she calleth the name of Jehovah who is speaking unto her, `Thou [art], O God, my beholder;' for she said, `Even here have I looked behind my beholder?'
In verse 10 the Messenger of Jehovah said, “I multiply they seed.” This means that the Messenger of Jehovah is also Jehovah. And in verse 13 Hagar identified the Messenger of Jehovah as Jehovah God, “And she calleth the name of of Jehovah who is speaking with her…. 'O God, my beholder….”
So God is NOT a solitary Being as anti-trinitarians say. He is a plural Being.
thinker
Hi TT,
So angels never spoke for God?
You have read of the burning bush where the angel spoke for God?The Angels of God often do this as direct conveyors of messages for God
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 03 2009,06:11) Hi TT,
So angels never spoke for God?
You have read of the burning bush where the angel spoke for God?The Angels of God often do this as direct conveyors of messages for God
Your scripture twisting Nick. The angel said to Hagar, “I will multiply your seed.” The Angel did not say “He” but “I will multiply your seed.” The angel could not say this unless He was God. And Hagar replied to the one who spoke with her and called Him “Jehovah” and “God.” Did you get that Nick? Hagar called the Angel by the name Jehovah.Moses also called the Angel “Jehovah” (Exodus 4:1).
Therefore, the Angel who spoke for Jehovah was Jehovah.
Aren't you glad that all your sins are forgiven including your doctrinal falsehoods? Jesus won't bring up your errors when you get to heaven because He washed them all away!
thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 03 2009,10:20) Hi TT,
So the angels who met with Abraham were God?
Nick,
One of the angels who met with Abraham was God.Nick said:
Quote Hi TT,
You too quickly make facile THEREFORE presumptions.Then disprove my “therefore” Nick. Verse 10 CLEARLY says that the Angel will multiply Hagar's seed. “I will multiply thy seed.” This means that the Angel is God! Earlier I said that Hagar called the Angel by the name Jehovah. But it is actually Moses who said that the Angel is Jehovah, “And she calleth the name of Jehovah who is speaking unto her, `Thou [art], O God, my beholder;' for she said, `Even here have I looked behind my beholder?'
Moses called the Angel by the name Jehovah and Hagar called the angel “O God my beholder.”
Summary:
1. In verse 10 the Angel said, “I will multiply thy seed.” This implies that the Angel is God.
2. In verse 13 Moses calls the Angel by the name of Jehovah
3. Verse 13 says also that Hagar called the Angel “O God my beholder.”Aren't you glad your stubbornness to accept the truth is also forgiven? Isn't it wonderful that ALL your sins have been cancelled? When you stand before Christ the Judge He will not see your errors because He washed everything away. You will stand before Him white as snow. Yet you diminish Him.
thinker
Hi TT,
Does God have to do His own messages?
Why be God have servants if you have to do it all yourself?Thinker………GOD makes HIS (ANGLE'S) SPIRITS (intellects) in them, and then send then out to do HIS WORK , The Spirit of GOD is the SAME in ALL who Have it, That is why Jesus said the WORDS I am telling you are (NOT) MINE because GOD WAS IN HIM VIA HIS SPIRIT (INTELLECT) . And if GOD is in a person He can speak directly through that Person. God is not a (PERSON) He is a SPIRIT and can cohabit us, As in the case when Jesus spoke and GOD SAID through him , destory this temple and in three days (I) GOD shall raise (IT) Jesus' BODY UP> Three other place is scripture it says that (GOD) raised JESUS UP , Jesus did not raise Himself UP but GOD the FATHER DID. GOD was (IN) Jesus via the Anointing (Christos) but that does no make Jesus a GOD nor any angle a GOD.
peace and love…………………….gene
Thinker …………We are told if we are brought before the rulers to not meditate on what we will say for in that very hour it shall be given you what to say , it will not be you speaking but you Father Speaking through You. Now really thinker was Jesus the Man a GOD, or was GOD the (ONLY) GOD in HIM doing HIS WORKS. Think about it thinker. Come out of the TRINITARIAN DELUSIONS while there is time Brother.
peace and love………………..gene
Hi thethinker:
A messenger from Jehovah is speaking what Jehovah said to speak. A messenger is stll a messenger and not Jehovah.
Quote 9And the Messenger of Jehovah saith to her…” Quote Hbr 1:1 In many parts, and many ways, God of old having spoken to the fathers in the prophets,
Hbr 1:2 in these last days did speak to us in a Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He did make the ages;Love in Christ,
MartyGene said:
Quote We are told if we are brought before the rulers to not meditate on what we will say for in that very hour it shall be given you what to say , it will not be you speaking but you Father Speaking through You. Now really thinker was Jesus the Man a GOD, or was GOD the (ONLY) GOD in HIM doing HIS WORKS. Think about it thinker. Come out of the TRINITARIAN DELUSIONS while there is time Brother. Gene,
The Scripture is PLAIN:Quote 9And the Messenger of Jehovah saith to her, `Turn back unto thy mistress, and humble thyself under her hands;' 10and the Messenger of Jehovah saith to her, `Multiplying, I multiply thy seed, and it is not numbered from multitude;'
11and the Messenger of Jehovah saith to her, `Behold thou [art] conceiving, and bearing a son, and hast called his name Ishmael, for Jehovah hath hearkened unto thine affliction;
12and he is a wild-man, his hand against every one, and every one's hand against him — and before the face of all his brethren he dwelleth.'
13And she calleth the name of Jehovah who is speaking unto her, `Thou [art], O God, my beholder;' for she said, `Even here have I looked behind my beholder?'
1. The Messenger would not have said “I will multiply your seed” if He was not God.
2. Moses said that the one who was speaking with her was “Jehovah.”
3. Sarah called the Messenger “O God my beholder.”
Stop calling me your “brother.” You deny that Jesus is Lord. We are not brothers.
thinker
Quote (942767 @ Aug. 03 2009,14:02) Hi thethinker: A messenger from Jehovah is speaking what Jehovah said to speak. A messenger is stll a messenger and not Jehovah.
Quote 9And the Messenger of Jehovah saith to her…” Quote Hbr 1:1 In many parts, and many ways, God of old having spoken to the fathers in the prophets,
Hbr 1:2 in these last days did speak to us in a Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He did make the ages;Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty,
What's with you people? You deny the facts even when they are staring you in the face. The messenger would not Have said “I will muiltiply your seed” if he was not God. He would have said “God will multiply your seed.” When the messenger announced Christ's birth in ther new testament he didn't say “I” will do this or do that.Moses said that the One who was speaking with her was Jehovah. I take the word of Moses over you and Gene. There is much more evidence than this. I am just getting started.
thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 03 2009,23:15) Hi TT,
So Jesus can call on legions of angels but his God has to do His own messages?
Nick,
I'm just tellng you what the narrative says. Why would the Messenger lie to Hagar? He should have said “God will multiply your seed.” Instead He said, “I will multiply your seed.” If the Messenger wasn't Jehovah then He was an unfaithful servant. Right?thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Aug. 03 2009,10:26) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 03 2009,23:15) Hi TT,
So Jesus can call on legions of angels but his God has to do His own messages?
Nick,
I'm just tellng you what the narrative says. Why would the Messenger lie to Hagar? He should have said “God will multiply your seed.” Instead He said, “I will multiply your seed.” If the Messenger wasn't Jehovah then He was an unfaithful servant. Right?thinker
Hi JackThe problem with their thinking is they cannot concieve that the Almighty, All Powerful, God can and has taken on different forms.
Nothing is impossible with our God, but with theirs it is!
Blessings Keith
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 04 2009,03:04) Quote (thethinker @ Aug. 03 2009,10:26) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 03 2009,23:15) Hi TT,
So Jesus can call on legions of angels but his God has to do His own messages?
Nick,
I'm just tellng you what the narrative says. Why would the Messenger lie to Hagar? He should have said “God will multiply your seed.” Instead He said, “I will multiply your seed.” If the Messenger wasn't Jehovah then He was an unfaithful servant. Right?thinker
Hi JackThe problem with their thinking is they cannot concieve that the Almighty, All Powerful, God can and has taken on different forms.
Nothing is impossible with our God, but with theirs it is!
Blessings Keith
Keith,
It is on the shoulders of the anti-trinitarians to explain the Genesis 16 narrative. I have simply given them what it says. It is the Gnostic and Arain traditions to which they cling that prevent them from seeing that God is a plural Being. The Messenger of Jehovah was also Jehovah. Therefore, Jehovah is NOT a solitary Being but a plural Being.thinker
Thinker……..Your logic is completely flawed, Why would not a messenger not say I will Multiply your seed , If that is what GOD wanted Him to say and do. All things are Possible (WITH) GOD so if God was (WITH) the Messenger , like He was WITH Jesus, then those Servants are doing (HIS) Will and WORK, but that does (NOT) make them A GOD as deluded TRINITARIANS believe. As far as Gnostic beliefs goes it is the TRINITARIANS who believe that Jesus come forth From GOD , a GOD From GOD (Homoussious) Just like the Gnostic's Believed. They taught the Jesus was a GOD who came forth from the pleura, a GOD from GOD'S. It never ceases to amaze me how you TRINITARIANS go all over the Bible looking for some Loop hole to advance you Pagan teachings, but completely ignore the obvious straight forward scriptures the show the there is (ONLY) ONE TRUE GOD< Just as Jesus SAID. When are you going to stop turning Jesus into a MAN OF SIN. 2ths2. Thinker Where did i say Jesus is not Lord, he is the Lord but NOT the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY. You equating the word Lord as meaning (ALMIGHTY GOD) is Ignorance on you part, it in no way means that. I know full well GOD is a PLURAL word for POWERS and The words LORD GOD , means He EXISTS with POWERS . Jesus quoted Scripture and Lets what He said (HEAR O ISREAL THE LORD OUR GOD IS (ONE) LORD. Now do you see three GOD'S mentioned there. Again You deluded Trinitarians remind me of the saying " you strain out a gnat, and swallow a camel ", BECAUSE OF the deluding Spirit sent to you, YOU ARE UNABLE EVEN TO PUT SIMPLE SCRIPTURES TOGETHER. IMO
peace and love…………………..gene
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