- This topic has 264 replies, 12 voices, and was last updated 2 years, 2 months ago by
.
- Posts
Hey Adam! I hope you are okay. I haven’t heard from you since I debunked your “Yahweh is subservient to the Canaanite god El” theory.
Where are you guys? Everyone has their lifelong belief that the Hebrew culture and the Bible is strictly monotheistic – because other people LIED to them about that. Then they are shown the truth – from the scriptures themselves. And instead of saying, “Wow! You’re absolutely right that the Bible teaches about a bunch of different gods!”, they just run away, mumbling about how the Bible STILL teaches of only one God regardless of what the scriptures say.
Shameful behavior for people who are supposedly here to discuss scriptural truth.
Hi Mike, yes I am doing well here in India. Nothing to be ashamed of here as we are all debating on the most primitive and elementary religious writings/texts in HN.
You may refute or debunk my posts and ideas but doesn’t prove you are right. I have given number of arguments on how the Biblical religion originated from Polytheistic environment and evolved into most hardcore Monotheistic environment after the Babylonian Exile.
Please don’t think you are alone right here. Every one is having his own understanding on the Biblical religion and its writings.
Please give respect to others as the kindness towards humanity is the most true religion in this world.
Here are some verses to consider on this topic:
Exodus 23:13
Pay close attention to everything I have said to you. You must not invoke the names of other gods; they must not be heard on your lips.Joshua 23:7
So you are not to associate with these nations that remain among you. You must not call on the names of their gods or swear by them, and you must not serve them or bow down to them.Psalm 16:4
Sorrows will multiply to those who chase other gods. I will not pour out their libations of blood, or speak their names with my lips.Zechariah 13:2
And on that day, declares the LORD of Hosts, I will erase the names of the idols from the land, and they will no longer be remembered. I will also remove the prophets and the spirit of impurity from the land.Hosea 2:17
For I will take away the names of Baalim out of her mouth, and they shall no more be remembered by their name.Side note to the verse above…who is the “her,” the 3rd person feminine singular “her?” Could that refer to a unity of some sorts and not an individual? Hmmmm.
Exodus 23:13
And in all things that I have said unto you be circumspect: and make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth.Joshua 23:7
That ye come not among these nations, these that remain among you; neither make mention of the name of their gods, nor cause to swear by them, neither serve them, nor bow yourselves unto them:Psalm 16:4
Their sorrows shall be multiplied that hasten after another god: their drink offerings of blood will I not offer, nor take up their names into my lips.and they.
Jeremiah 10:11
Thus shall ye say unto them, The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, even they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens.So, those many verses translate “elohim” as gods and therefore that speaks to the existence of there being many gods of the Bible, however, they are not to be served or bowed down to and their names are not to be even mentioned by the followers of YHVH.
BUT Jesus’ name is above all names and to be invoked, Jesus is to be served, Jesus is to be followed, Jesus is to be bowed down to. There is power in the name of Jesus.
It is the the glory of the Father that the name of Jesus is exalted. Jesus is not just one of the many gods of the Bible.
Hi LU,
If there are other gods then what about Isaiah 45:5?
“I am Yahweh, and there is no one else.
Besides me, there is no God.”God bless
Hi Danny,
Nice to hear from you again. I believe that verse in Isaiah 45:5 is saying that all other so called ‘gods’ are not gods at all compared to Yahweh. All “so called gods” are in a different category than Yahweh. Jesus is however in the same category as Yahweh who created the heavens and the earth. Yahweh is both God and Lord. We are told that Jesus who is the only begotten God, is Lord, is to be called on, served, bowed down to and followed. He is not just one of the many other ‘gods’ of the Bible. There is power in the name of Jesus.
Stick around Danny, you have good questions.
Blessings, LU
Hi Adam,
“… the kindness towards humanity is the most true religion in this world.”
Adam, those are good words. They remind me of this passage:
1 Cor 13
1If I speak with the tongues of mankind and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and know all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3And if I give away all my possessions to charity, and if I surrender my body so that I may glory, but do not have love, it does me no good.
4Love is patient, love is kind, it is not jealous; love does not brag, it is not arrogant. 5It does not act disgracefully, it does not seek its own benefit; it is not provoked, does not keep an account of a wrong suffered, 6it does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; 7it keeps every confidence, it believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away with; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away with. 9For we know in part and prophesy in part; 10but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away with. 11When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. 12For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully, just as I also have been fully known. 13But now faith, hope, and love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
Faith, hope and love remain.
Faith in what, Adam? What do you think?
Adam,
A more personal question for you today:
Do you believe in a god/God who created heaven and earth? If so what is his/her name/names?
Hi Adam,
“… the kindness towards humanity is the most true religion in this world.”
Adam, those are good words. They remind me of this passage:
1 Cor 13
Hi Sis Kathi, thanks for your positive reply to my post. Yes our Bible contains many such examples.
Faith, hope and love remain.
Faith in what, Adam? What do you think?
Yes Faith, Hope and Love shall remain in our spiritual journey. As a Christian my faith will be in God and Jesus. But at this juncture of my life I have become a Skeptic and rational in thinking.
Adam,
A more personal question for you today:
Do you believe in a god/God who created heaven and earth? If so what is his/her name/names?
Hi Sis, I respect your personal question to me.
Yes as a Christian I believe in God and his name is Yahweh and his son’s name is Jesus.
But I lost all those beliefs at this juncture of my life.
Hi Adam,
Yes, I realize that you lost all those beliefs. I was wondering if you have replaced your beliefs in something else that gives you hope. Are you an atheist or agnostic?
Hi Sis Kathi, Thanks for your concern for me. I am neither Atheist nor Agnostic but have become a skeptic and rationalist. I still attend Church and maintain my spiritual life with my family.
Danny: Hi Mike,
If there are other gods then what about Isaiah 45:5?
“I am Yahweh, and there is no one else.
Besides me, there is no God.”Danny, I just answered that in great detail in post 931131 on the previous page. (It’s the 12th post down on the page, and addressed to both you and Gene.)
The bottom line is that God also says there is no savior besides Him…
Isaiah 43:11… I, even I, am the LORD, And besides Me there is no savior.
Hosea 13:4… Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no savior beside me.
Yet we know that God sent many saviors throughout the Bible, right?
Nehemiah 9:27… when they cried unto thee, thou heardest them from heaven; and according to thy manifold mercies thou gavest them saviors, who saved them out of the hand of their enemies.
So let me answer your question with one of my own…
Danny, if there are other saviors, then what about Is 43:11 and Hosea 13:4?
Adam: Nothing to be ashamed of here as we are all debating on the most primitive and elementary religious writings/texts in HN.
I wholeheartedly disagree. This isn’t a question that is open for debate. For example, if David says mankind was made a little lower than the gods, then there is no question that the gods to whom he refers (many times) are Yahweh’s spirit sons.
Ergo, Yahweh’s spirit sons are gods, according to King David, Yahweh Himself, and many other writers of the scriptures. There is no debate. There is no word for “angel” in the Hebrew or Greek texts. There is no “so-called”, or putting “gods” in quotation marks as some people (and translations) do. There are only a bunch of literal, actual gods, and the Most High God Yahweh – who is the God of all the other gods.
Adam: You may refute or debunk my posts and ideas but doesn’t prove you are right. I have given number of arguments on how the Biblical religion originated from Polytheistic environment and evolved into most hardcore Monotheistic environment after the Babylonian Exile.
You have copied and pasted other people’s baseless CLAIMS – which are neither valid arguments nor evidence, Adam. I have asked for EVIDENCE that Deut 32:8-9 identifies Yahweh as an inferior local tribal god who was given Israel by the Canaanite god El… as per your claim and the claim of your sources. Show me the EVIDENCE, because it’s certainly not in the text of Deut 32:8-9.
Adam: Please don’t think you are alone right here. Every one is having his own understanding on the Biblical religion and its writings.
If I am wrong, then prove me wrong. Start with Deut 32:8-9.
Adam: Please give respect to others as the kindness towards humanity is the most true religion in this world.
Was Jesus giving respect when he called the Pharisees whitewashed tombs and hypocrites? Jesus also made it very clear that he wasn’t sent to earth to bring peace, but to bring division. After all…
2 Corinthians 6:14-15… For what partnership can righteousness have with wickedness? Or what fellowship does light have with darkness? What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? Or what does a believer have in common with an unbeliever?
Or for those of us who only like the OT…
2 Chronicles 19:2… Should you help the wicked and love those who hate the LORD? Because of this, the wrath of the LORD is on you.
I show all of you respect by trying my best to show you what the Bible actually teaches. But if the scripture clearly and explicitly says “X”, and someone is hemming and hawing and saying, “well… just maybe the X really means Y” or some other such nonsense, then I feel compelled – out of respect for that person’s well being – to SHOVE it down their throats that it says “X” and it damn sure MEANS “X”.
So don’t get it twisted, Adam. I’m not here to say pretty flowery words to you or to join your “worldwide religion of kindness to everyone”. I’m here to defend God, his holy servant Jesus, and the teachings that they gave us through the writers of the scriptures, both OT and NT.
This is a Biblical DEBATE site – not a “let’s all just get along” site. Speak truth, and you and I will become great friends. Try to twist scriptural truth, and I will put you in your place. It’s really as simple as that.
Now… you have claimed that Deut 32:8-9 portrays Yahweh as an inferior tribal god who was given Israel by the Canaanite god El. That belief is nowhere in that text. Please acknowledge that you were wrong, and commit to never making such an absurd and unsubstantiated claim again on this forum. Thanks. (Was that “kind” enough for you? If not, too bad.)
Danny, if there are other saviors, then what about Is 43:11 and Hosea 13:4?
Hi Mike,
Yahweh God, the only Savior, can use whom he will to deliver his people.
I think in that sense others can be called saviors.DANNY ……good point, I also believe God can use anyone in his saving process. BUT HE IS STILL THE ONLY “TRUE” SAVIOUR. None of those saviours could have saved anyone without GOD the Father being with them.
Peace and love to you and yours Danny. ………….gene
LU: Side note to the verse above…who is the “her,” the 3rd person feminine singular “her?” Could that refer to a unity of some sorts and not an individual? Hmmmm.
The grammatical gender of the word for ” spirit ” is feminine in Hebrew (רוּחַ, rūaḥ ), neuter in Greek (πνεῦμα, pneûma) and masculine in Latin (spiritus). So I suppose the Holy Spirit is a chick in Hebrew, an it in Greek, and a dude in Latin, huh? Hmm…
Now do “he”, Kathi. Show us a group of more than one person that is literally a “he” (as opposed to just grammatically singular masculine).
LU: So, those many verses translate “elohim” as gods and therefore that speaks to the existence of there being many gods of the Bible…
Thank you for all those verses. The point of this thread is to make it undeniably clear that the Bible is loaded with tons of different gods – and that these gods are real, living, powerful entities who aren’t called “so-called gods”, or “gods” with quotation marks around it. They are simply gods: powerful spirit beings… nothing more, nothing less.
So thanks for those verses. I hope the others here (like Danny and Gene) can start to understand that the Bible has “many gods and many lords, both in heaven and on earth” (1 Cor 8:5), and one MOST HIGH God who is the God OF all the other ones.
LU: Jesus is not just one of the many gods of the Bible.
You could say the same for the archangel Michael. He is a much higher god than most of the other gods, but still lower than, and the creation of, the Most High God, Yahweh. It is the same with Jesus, although his and our God, Yahweh, has set Jesus even higher than Michael and given Jesus a name above all those other gods.
And that brings us to Psalm 82…
1The gods congregate in the assembly of God; He renders judgment among the gods:
2“How long will you judge unjustly and show partiality to the wicked?
6I have said, ‘You are gods; you are all sons of the Most High.’
7But like mortals you will die, and like rulers you will fall.”
Kathi, do you understand that this psalm depicts the gods all assembling before Yahweh (like in Job 1:6 and 2:1), and Yahweh passing judgement upon some of them who have disobeyed him? Do you see that the punishment is that, although He created them as gods and not subject to death, He will remove their immortality so that they die as mortal men die?
(It is the same situation in the Book of Enoch, and the punishment is the same there – although it was against other gods, and for different crimes.)
Do you agree? Thoughts?
Mike: Danny, if there are other saviors, then what about Is 43:11 and Hosea 13:4?
Danny: Yahweh God, the only Savior, can use whom he will to deliver his people.
I think in that sense others can be called saviors.Gene: God can use anyone in his saving process. BUT HE IS STILL THE ONLY “TRUE” SAVIOUR. None of those saviours could have saved anyone without GOD the Father being with them.
Amen fellas! So suffice it to say that, although God said He was the ONLY savior, the statement wasn’t meant to be taken LITERALLY – but instead as an EMPHATICAL statement to indicate that He was the ULTIMATE savior – and without Him, there could be no other saviors.
Now apply that very same answer to Isaiah 45:5, etc. Yahweh couldn’t possibly have been saying that He was LITERALLY the ONLY god – because He Himself calls many others gods all throughout the scriptures… dozens (if not hundreds) of times. Heck, “You shall have no other gods before me” is the very first commandment, right? How could anyone possibly place another god above Yahweh if Yahweh is LITERALLY the ONLY god in existence? The very first commandment is nonsensical without the existence of other gods. So are Yahweh’s titles “Most High God” and “God of gods”.
Bottom line: “There is no savior besides me” = “I am the ultimate savior”
“There is no god beside me” = “I am the ultimate god”
So now guys, I just brought up Psalm 82. What say you to this teaching about Yahweh punishing other gods by removing their immortality so that they die like mortal men do? Thoughts?
Danny: Hi Mike,
I only wanted to show Adam that YHWH is EL!
Because Adam believes they are separate deities.
I gave him these Bible verses:Hi Danny thanks for your post to me on Yahweh as EL. The problem here is that our Bible came from many sources and many writers. It was also evolved and developed as per the timeline along with the evolution of its religion from Polytheism to Monotheism. It is so difficult to find out the deviations from the existing texts of the Bible as it was much redacted and edited by the later scribes. But there are few vestigial traces visible in these texts if we investigate carefully. This was proved by the historians who are not biased by the traditional religious backgrounds.
One of such examples is Deut 32:7-9
Remember the days of old,
consider the years of many generations;
ask your father, and he will show you;
your elders, and they will tell you.
8 When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance,
when he separated the sons of men,
he fixed the bounds of the peoples
according to the number of the sons of God.
9 For the Lord’s portion is his people,
Jacob his allotted heritage.So Deuteronomy 32:8 clearly appears originally to have said;
When the most High(Elyon) divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of God (El).
This was changed after Judaism became monotheistic, since it would not be possible for El to have children, and now reads “children of Israel”, even though this does not make sense.
Ancient tradition held that El, the father of the gods, had seventy children. Each of his children became the patron god of a nation or city-state. In Psalm 82, there is another post-Exilic mention of this former belief, where the Jews are being told these other gods will die and their responsibilities taken over by the one Jewish God. Yahweh is standing in the congregation of the mighty, addressing the gods (Psalm 82:6–8):
I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes. Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.
If Israel is YHWH’s (Deuteronomy 32:9) portion, then who do the other nations belong to?
This passage is extremely interesting to those of us who are interested in the Bible in terms of its history rather than from a biased traditional religious perspective. It’s one of the few, in fact the only passage in the Bible I can think of where its polytheistic origins fully shine through. To closely paraphrase:
When (El) Elyon [the highest god] divided the nations, he fixed the borders according to the number of the gods; Yahweh’s portion was Israel.
Here we have the highest god dividing up the world; Yahweh gets one share, Israel. Clearly the other nations, then, were assigned to the various other deities under El — Yahweh is here only one of a number of tribal or national deities.
In later developments, of course, El and Yahweh were merged into one god, and while many passages in the Bible accept the existence of other gods, they always regard Yahweh as the greatest of them. Not so here, where Yahweh has not yet been syncretised with El and taken on his supremacy.
Later biblical traditions eventually moved through monolatry to monotheism, so unsurprisingly, a great deal of interpretations cast this in a different light: “the gods” become “the sons of the gods”, “Yahweh’s portion” is translated as “Yahweh’s own portion” to get rid of the implication that he had a superior. But if we ignore such obfuscation, we have a small window on a more ancient religious world.
In Deuteronomy 32 the language originally said that the nations were assigned by El according to the number of his sons, which fits perfectly with the statement that Israel is Yahweh’s inheritance or portion. Yahweh was just another one of El’s sons in the old polytheism of Israel. The two deities were later combined into Yahweh-Elohim, the sole god in monotheistic Judaism.
The wording of this passage appears to have been later changed to sons of Israel, which makes little sense in the context of Israel being Yahweh’s share among the nations.
Older manuscripts than the current Masoretic Text very likely carry the original language in saying that the nations were divided to the children of God.
Besides, other parts of Deuteronomy have preserved the original context, such as seen in the following:
Deuteronomy 4:19
And when you see the sun or moon or stars, don’t be tempted to bow down and worship them. The LORD put them there for all the other nations to worship.
The verse is so funny which states that this Tribal God Yahweh allotted sun, moon and stars to other nations for their worship.
The verses you quoted in your post are the most developed and evolved form of Biblical religion which became a hardcore type of Monotheism at later stage.
I hope this will also reply to Mike’s latest posts to me on ‘Many Gods of the Bible’. Yes I copy and paste much from other sources but that doesn’t deny the truth I bring here on HN.
Was Jesus giving respect when he called the Pharisees whitewashed tombs and hypocrites? Jesus also made it very clear that he wasn’t sent to earth to bring peace, but to bring division. After all.
Hi Mike thanks for your detailed replies to my post. Here you compare yourself to the First Century Jew, Jesus’ statements as recorded by the Gospel writers?
I take these statements are nothing new for me as I consider Jesus as pure human like any of us.
So don’t get it twisted, Adam. I’m not here to say pretty flowery words to you or to join your “worldwide religion of kindness to everyone”. I’m here to defend God, his holy servant Jesus, and the teachings that they gave us through the writers of the scriptures, both OT and NT.
Yes you are not saying any flowery words to others here as I have already stated but you are using non-kind words towards others which is not permitted in any public Forum. You are having full rights to defend your religion but don’t rub them on others who don’t agree with you.
This is a Biblical DEBATE site – not a “let’s all just get along” site. Speak truth, and you and I will become great friends. Try to twist scriptural truth, and I will put you in your place. It’s really as simple as that.
Even this Biblical debates are not allowed to cross the human rights dear. These are all ancient writings which needs clarity as per the public debate.
Now… you have claimed that Deut 32:8-9 portrays Yahweh as an inferior tribal god who was given Israel by the Canaanite god El. That belief is nowhere in that text. Please acknowledge that you were wrong, and commit to never making such an absurd and unsubstantiated claim again on this forum. Thanks. (Was that “kind” enough for you? If not, too bad.)
I have already replied this query of yours in my reply to Danny. I am searching the truth in the Biblical religion based historians’ investigations on these ancient religious texts.
Please don’t mistake me brother.
Hi Adam,
Thanks for your reply.
So what you’re saying is that we can’t trust our Bibles?
The Bible clearly says that Yahweh is El but no we can’t trust that?
Well, I trust my Bible and I will give you another very clear verse:
Isaiah 45:5 “I am Yahweh, and there is no one else.
Besides me, there is no God.”Yahweh is El Elyon the Most High God!
I really hope you will accept this truth.
God bless
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
