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Mike: How do you know? Why couldn’t it have been the Son saying, “Let us make man in our image”?
And which one of them was the “HE” who made man? (Please include how you know.)
LU: I believe that the Father gives the vision and the Son does what He has seen in the vision. The Son formed man. All things are made by the only begotten God, apart from the only begotten God, nothing has been made that has been made. John 1:3, even the heavens and the earth ;).
Personally, as “The Word of God”, I thought you’d say Jesus did the speaking. But the bottom line is that you don’t know, right? And is this the way throughout the entire Bible, Kathi? Every time “Yahweh” or “God” is mentioned, you have to choose for yourself which of them said this, and which of them did that? Of course it would have to be, right?
I have so many questions about your doctrine. I mentioned in the “Conspiracy” thread that maybe we should give a dedicated thread to “The Doctrine of LU” or something – so we can really scrutinize it and make sure it aligns all throughout scripture.
For example, you “believe” that the Father did the speaking and the Son created man. But how does that align with these words from Jesus himself…
Matthew 19:4… Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female…
Could Jesus have been coyly talking about himself? And here…
Mark 10:6… But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.
Was Jesus mystically speaking of himself again? And what do you do with this one…
Deuteronomy 32:6… Is this the way you repay Yahweh, you foolish and unwise people? Is he not your Father, your Creator, who made you and formed you?
Here we have Yahweh being a “he”, and their “Father”, and their “Creator” – the one who “made them”. How does this align with your doctrine?
And just one more for the fun of it…
Malachi 2:10… Do we not all have one Father? Did not one God create us?
It sure seems to me that the writers of scripture consider the Father alone to be – not only their God – but also their Creator…
Isaiah 64:8… Yet you, Yahweh, are our Father. We are the clay, you are the potter; we are all the work of your hands.
Not a single mention of “Yahweh the Son”, who actually created them according to you. Kathi, why do you suppose the God-inspired writers of scripture didn’t know about the “Yahweh Unity” that you preach? Why do these people all assume that Yahweh is only the Father, and that He (not they) created them?
Not a single mention of “Yahweh the Son”, who actually created them according to you. Kathi, why do you suppose the God-inspired writers of scripture didn’t know about the “Yahweh Unity” that you preach? Why do these people all assume that Yahweh is only the Father, and that He (not they) created them?
Hi Mike, I liked the flow of your reply to Sis Kathi on One Yahweh who is Father. Hope she will appreciate it. But the problem is that she takes the other references from the NT which support Jesus’ involvement in creation process along with God.
Gene: Mike…….by God saying the man would become as “we are”, does not mean the, “WE”, are other Gods, or he would have said , as we “God’s are”. You have inserted the word God’s there, but scripture does not say “we God’s” now does it?
Actually it does, Gene. Watch…
Genesis 3:5… you shall be like gods, knowing good and evil.
Genesis 3:22… Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil.
You already acknowledged that God confirmed what the serpent said. The serpent said that they would become like “gods”. God confirmed the serpent’s words by saying they had become like “one of us”.
So who are the “us” that God is talking to – and why did the serpent call them “gods”?
Adam: Hi Mike, I liked the flow of your reply to Sis Kathi on One Yahweh who is Father. Hope she will appreciate it. But the problem is that she takes the other references from the NT which support Jesus’ involvement in creation process along with God.
Thanks. 👍
Adam, we learn of Jesus’ and the other gods’ involvement in the OT too. For example, “Let US make them in OUR image”. Maybe that involvement was nothing more than offering suggestions as to what to make next, or even just as spectators offering praise and cheering God on. (Job 38:7, Proverbs 8:22-31)
Adam, we learn of Jesus’ and the other gods’ involvement in the OT too. For example, “Let US make them in OUR image”. Maybe that involvement was nothing more than offering suggestions as to what to make next, or even just as spectators offering praise and cheering God on. (Job 38:7, Proverbs 8:22-31)
That is great catch on how the subordinates involved in God’s creation but I don’t like the straight addition of Jesus, the first century Jew in this process by the NT writers and Christianity.
Mike…..We are all “like” YAHOVAH “our” God, in many ways, but that does not make us God’s, even the whole creation itself desplays the “atributes” of God, because he created it that way. Having an atributes of God, like “knowing good and evil” , dosen’t make anyone a God. Your confusing the words , “As” and “like” I believe with meaning, “A GOD,” that is not what Is meant there i believe.
You still lack the actual meaning of the word “God”, itself, if you get it right, you will see it means the “type” or kind of a “relationship” you have with anything there is. That is why, The only true God Said “you shall have “NO” GOD’S BESIDES ME. because Isreal was making other things into their God’s . The word God is “only” a descriptor of “YOUR” RELATIONSHIP, with something anything, even idols can “actually”, be a God, to a person, if A PERSON see’s it as the “POWER THEY BELIEVE AND LEAN ON IN LIFE. An idolatar is a person who has made something other then the “true” God , their God. The word “God” does not describe a person, it describes you relationship with something , that is why we use the terms, our God, my God, their God, the God of this or that, but to identify that God we must apply a name to it, Like YAHOVAH, our GOD. So the word God, “by itself” , implies the relationship , but not the person, unless it has the person’s name attached to it, to identify who or what it is attached to.
Do you see what I am saying Mike?
Peace and love to you and yours. ……….gene
Hi Mike,
I think you may find this interesting,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LavvpdMPZdw
Blessings, Jodi
Jodi……So the “US” , Used there means God, and the Land, from the Hebrew text, and being that Man is formed from the dust of the land, and the breath of life from God , So, God incorporates the land as part of his creative works. That does make sense Jodi, thanks.
Peace and love to you and yours Jodi………….gene
Gene
God needs NOTHING TO CREATE “EVERYTHING”
THE LANGUAGE OF GENESIS IS A PEDAGOGICAL LANGUAGE.
MAN NEEDS THE EARTH TO LIVE AND THE SPIRIT OF GOD.To all, this thread has a lot for us to understand, and we can all gain by understanding it IMO.
In my opinion there is ONLY, “ONE” TRUE GOD, and there are no “little” gods, but having said that,, you can make God’s to yourselves by treating any object as, the word God implies . If anything “TO “YOU” fit the description of the word meaning God , it is indeed “Your” God, but may not be another’s God, but just yours, if it is the “POWER YOU have your faith in and LEAN ON FOR YOUR SUPORT” ,just as the word God means .
But to us true Believers , there is but “one true God” , TO US, THAT IS GOD, just that simple.
Peace and love to you all and yours. ……..gene
What I find so interesting here is when I or others quote a clear scripture written exactly as in scripture , why don’t people on here agree with it?, And if a person understands it differently, just show how it doesen’t mean that, and why it does not mean what is exactly as written, says. I understand a scripture can take a different meaning by how it is interpreted , there are many of those, but when there is no other meaning that can be drawn from the text , why can’t a person just admit It does say just what is written and actually means what is written.
If there is an alternative meaning then express it , or simply agree with what is written , and adjust your understanding to match what is written, isn’t that what a wise and prudent person would do? I have seen things that are different then my understanding was about it, before , and I changed my view of it. But I try to make sure it fits the rest of what others scriptures also say, if I find it goes contary to the rest of the scriptures, I realize my understanding of it must be wrong or if others present something that does not match the rest of the scriptures, I reject their inturpitations then.
We all should be adjusting our understanding as we grow in understanding, espically if we believe what Paul said, that we only see in part at this time in our lives. Let all be open to change as we grow in understanding then.
Peace and love to you all and yours………gene
We all should be adjusting our understanding as we grow in understanding, espically if we believe what Paul said, that we only see in part at this time in our lives. Let all be open to change as we grow in understanding then.
Hello brother Gene, I know you are much interested of the response from others on your posts. I tell you the problem with Christianity and many denominations in Christianity is that they all want to depend the NT concepts on God and Jesus who is more than a mere man. This is the reason why even Mike who states that the OT is filled with number of gods also makes Jesus another god among those gods available in the OT. I am dead against this type of biased approach of the NT writers and the Christian denominations on Jesus who was made more than a man, even involved him in God’s creation and ultimately made him a person in Godhead through Trinity.
If you are unbiased and read the Hebrew Bible no where it mentioned Jesus in the creation stories or mentioned about him even in whole of the Torah. All the prophetic writings talk about the future Messiah who will be a human warrior prince for the nation of Israel and will not be non-human being like the mythical being, Jesus described in the NT.
Sounds right to me! If we understand it otherwise, then IMO we’re reading an account about Someone with a personality disorder, and talking to Himself.
Jodi: Hi Mike,
I think you may find this interesting…
Hi Jodi… thanks for sharing that. As I understand it, the guy on the video believes that God was talking to the earth when He said, “Let us create man in our image.” I think I remember a scripture where God talks to the earth – but I can’t seem to locate it right now. But that interpretation says that the earth shares God’s image, hence “our image and our likeness”, right?
Is that how you understood your source too? And do you believe that God and the earth share an image and likeness?
Also, this is the first I’ve ever heard such an explanation. Are there other Hebrew scholars that you know of who understand it the same way?
And finally, would you please offer your thoughts on Gen 3:5 (“you will be like gods, knowing good and evil”) and Gen 3:22 (“The man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil”)?
Good to hear from you.
Gene: We are all “like” YAHOVAH “our” God, in many ways, but that does not make us God’s…
Gene, please stop using the apostrophe – as it means “possession”, as in, “we BELONG TO God”. For example, if I say we are all God’s children, I would use an apostrophe to indicate that we are children belonging to God. But if I were to claim that human beings can be gods, I CAN’T use an apostrophe between the d and the s because then I would be saying human beings can belong to God.
Do you understand that, Gene? Please stop using the apostrophe, because we can’t even tell what point you’re trying to make. As your sentence is written above, it says we are like God in many ways, but that doesn’t make us belong to God. That’s what your statement actually means when you use that apostrophe – and I’m quite sure that’s not what you were trying to say, right?
Okay, that being said, I have already told you once on this thread that I DO NOT believe the serpent said Adam and Eve would BECOME gods. Nor do I think that being like God in many ways would make any human BE a god. So please stop creating this strawman and trying to defeat an argument I never made in the first place.
I am glad you are participating in this topic, because I believe we all have a lot to discover about it. But right now I’m still awaiting your DIRECT answer to a question I’ve already asked you twice. Here it is again…
The serpent said that they would become like gods, knowing good and evil.
Then God said the man has become like us, knowing good and evil.
I’m asking you who God was talking to when He said they had “become like US”. Who is the “US”, Gene? Please answer that question DIRECTLY… as opposed to posting yet another long novel that doesn’t actually ANSWER the simple question I’m asking you.
Thanks
Proclaimer: So Mike. Do you worship the god Jesus?
Luke 4:8… Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.’”
The only God I worship is the God that Jesus worships – and told us to worship.
Your turn… So Proclaimer, do you accept the scriptural fact that Jesus IS a god?
Adam: This is the reason why even Mike who states that the OT is filled with number of gods also makes Jesus another god among those gods available in the OT.
It’s not “Mike” who is making the claim, Adam. It is the scriptures that make the claim that the OT is filled with tons of gods, and that the “child who will be born to us” is one of them.
Hockeycowboy: Sounds right to me! If we understand it otherwise, then IMO we’re reading an account about Someone with a personality disorder, and talking to Himself.
Hello HC. Glad to meet you. I’m not sure who you’re agreeing with, but I’m glad you realize that the Most High God was obviously not talking to Himself as if He is schizophrenic or something. 👍🙂
Hi Mike,
When I read the name Yahweh, I understand it as the God of gods and the Lord of lords to help see the unity of the Father and the Son who act as one. Since I believe that the Father accomplishes his vision through the Son, then they are both involved in the act albeit in different ways, and rightfully both be credited for the act like creation, making man, protecting Israel, leading the Israelites, giving life, etc.
When Jesus spoke about God, I think it is likely that Jesus entered this world as a baby, knowing nothing of his past and knowing only what normal healthy baby’s know. I think it is entirely possible that Jesus willingly emptied himself of his memories as if he willingly took on a strong case of amnesia and then over time, the Father slowly revealed who he was and what he did. It’s a theory but it makes sense to me. I don’t believe Jesus was an actor playing the role of a man but actually came into this world knowing as much as any other baby. The Bible says that Jesus grew in wisdom, stature and in favor with God and man. Little by little he came to know who he was as the only begotten Son of God, i.e. the only begotten God, and the promised Messiah. In other words, no I don’t think Jesus spoke coyly.
You wrote many verses, this one for example:
Isaiah 64:8… Yet you, Yahweh (God of gods and Lord of lords), are our Father. We are the clay, you are the potter; we are all the work of your hands (the Son is the arm of the LORD, i.e His hands in this verse).
The “arm of the LORD” is the Son. This was not always known…it was something revealed. So, before it was revealed, it was not spoken of as known. The name YHVH includes not only the God of gods but also the Lord of lords, so when anyone speaks of YHVH as God, both persons are being addressed without people realizing it. We know in part and we speak in part, someday we will know more fully. Until we know more fully what is what, we can only speak in part. The Bible is full of the stories of people growing in wisdom and knowing only in part. You can’t read the stories of what people thought and assume that they knew in fullness when they only knew in part.
Since I believe the Bible teaches us that the Father and the Son acted together in creation, then, we came from them both, and they together are our “Father,” in a sense, our potter.
One provides the clay and the other forms the clay and tada, man is made and both the God of gods and the Lord of lords took part in that.
You asked:
Not a single mention of “Yahweh the Son”, who actually created them according to you. Kathi, why do you suppose the God-inspired writers of scripture didn’t know about the “Yahweh Unity” that you preach? Why do these people all assume that Yahweh is only the Father, and that He (not they) created them?
Yahweh the Son is mentioned as the Word of the LORD and the Arm of the LORD, for example, many time in the OT. The writers knew in part and spoke accordingly. Now that the Bible is complete, we know more fully but depend on the Holy Spirit to enlighten us as we read.
As Adam admits, I teach in agreement wiht what the NT teaches. He said this:
But the problem is that she takes the other references from the NT which support Jesus’ involvement in creation process along with God.
In other words, he is implying that you do not teach what the NT teaches about Jesus’ involvement in the creation process along with God the Father.
You said:
Personally, as “The Word of God”, I thought you’d say Jesus did the speaking.
The “Let Us make man in our image” seems to me to be the Father talking to the Son. The Son is the one who seems to speak for them, as the spokesman for the Unity to man. YHVH is seen and heard through the Son. No man has seen the Father. The words “Let Us make man in our image” was obviously not spoken to man since man was not made. Jesus is the “Word of the LORD” when the LORD speaks to man.
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