The Manuscripts

Participant

Quote (TimothyVI @ Aug. 19 2008,22:32)

Hi Nick,

I am certain that worshippingJesus “knows for himself” that he is lead by the spirit of God,
and he believes in the trinity.
I am just as certain that you “know for yourself” that you are lead by the Spirit of God, and you do not believe in the trinity.

So unless you are both correct, there is a trinity and there is also not a trinity, what use is knowing for yourself that you are lead by the Spirit?

Tim

Hi Tim4,
Because it is a matter between God and the individual.
No one can give anyone else insight.

We need to sort the issue out ourselves and all the advice others can give cannot make anyone move one inch in the direction of truth should they be convinced in their own mind they are already inspired.

We should know that the mind of Christ should be manifested in the words we express being scriptural. That is how the mind of Christ grows in us by the reborn sons partaking of the bread of life.

But all human effort cannot bring this about in anyone else as it can only happen according to the path we choose to walk. Many other sources offer deceptively attractive sustenance and the church of the world supports them rather than Christ.

So, knowing change is unlikely, the reason we reflect to those who speak the world's language rather than scripture is for the sake of the defence of scriptural integrity and so the many observers here can have the opportunity to choose in these matters.

Change in the hardened individuals is not expected. That is not to say that we cannot learn either as we do every day and are grateful for the helpful rebukes that are given. But unless we can get mutual agreement that scripture is the best evidence for truth we march on the spot.

Personally I would like to move on.

August 19, 2008 at 6:49 pm#102175

Participant

Nick, reflecting on your post above I wonder, did Jesus know the bible would written? He never commanded that anything be written down, for instance. Did he really mean to grow us and give us the Spirit by reading a compliation of books put together by men?

August 19, 2008 at 6:52 pm#102176

Participant

Quote (theodorej @ Aug. 20 2008,03:36)

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 20 2008,02:57)

Quote (TimothyVI @ Aug. 19 2008,22:43)

When people truly study the bible and finally think they have figured out the meaning, they are certain that the spirit has shown them the meaning.
In truth, it may only have been their own understanding.

It's disappointing, isn't it?

Well, I believe you are correct. I have witnessed terrible treatment of brother's and sister's because someone was “led by the Spirit” to use “tough love” on someone. I'm not just talking here, but also out in everyday life.

Sometimes I think it's shame when someone is totally convinced of what they believe! It leaves no room to consider other's views in all honestly. It definitely leaves no room for your personal view to be called into question and God forbid! be wrong.

As I've said recently, an open mind is a terrible thing to lose.

I wish the bible was more clear-cut.
I wish relying on “the Spirit” led to more consistent outcomes for everyone.
I wish the God we are supposed to know would be more knowable.

I wish, I wish, I wish…… I guess it is what it is. When the end of the day comes, we have our faith and we have love. Maybe that's all we really need?

Love,
Mandy

Greetings Mandy…..The Bible is the manufacturers operating manual,unfortunately,thanks to the misguided interpretation of the so called scholors,the bible is in many different languages and with that comes confusion…Faith in the existance of of God and his goverment and the hope in things to come is a pretty good foundation….The Torah (first 5 books of the bible ) is the only scripture that has indeed survived the sands of time…Until this day it is the same as it was 2000 plus years ago…

Hi Theo,

Unfortunately knowing that the first five books are probably more accurate and genuine is not comforting in the least! It is within these books that many things are said of God that seem so uncompatible with a God of love, and a God who is the Father of all.

Love,
Mandy

August 19, 2008 at 7:10 pm#102177

Participant

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 20 2008,02:57)

Quote (TimothyVI @ Aug. 19 2008,22:43)

It's disappointing, isn't it?

As I've said recently, an open mind is a terrible thing to lose.

I wish the bible was more clear-cut.
I wish relying on “the Spirit” led to more consistent outcomes for everyone.
I wish the God we are supposed to know would be more knowable.

I wish, I wish, I wish…… I guess it is what it is. When the end of the day comes, we have our faith and we have love. Maybe that's all we really need?

Love,
Mandy

Hi Mandy

I understand where you are coming from.

But let me ask you this.

If someone told you that God the Father didn't exist is there any amount of convincing words they could say to change yoiur mind?

If you broke your leg and you were experiencing tremendous pain, would any amount of convincing words someone could say to you to change your mind about the pain yoiu feel?

My point is Black is Black, White is White, Truth is Truth, Lies are Lies.

There are absolutes that leave no room for an “open mind”.

To me to say that I should have an open mind about the possibility that God the Father may not exist would mean that I am not totally convinced that he does exist.

Everyman must work out his own salvation with fear and trembling.

I believe Yeshua is my Lord and my God because I am totally convinced that he is. No one has been able to give me good reason to give less honor to Yeshua than to the Father, nor have they given me reason why I should see Yeshua, the visible image of God, as less than God, for then my image of God would be less than who he is. There is no attribute that the Father has that Yeshua doesn't. Jesus revealed himself and miraculously delivered me from sin and filled me with the Holy Spirit 34 years ago. My faith is in One God not a God and a mere man.

Some would say that I give more honor to Yeshua than to the Father. According to John 5:23 is that possible?

The first words that came out of my heart was “Jesus save me” for the Spirit testified of him. The testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of Prophesy. Then Yeshua introduced me to the Father.

No one taught me to believe this way, I recieved him and knew him this way before I had even heard of a Trinity. I believe there are ample amount of scriptures that reveal this truth.

This is my experience and my belief and I try not to judge the hearts of others who do not believe this way, or who have not had my experience.

Sometimes I think the confusion comes because maybe some are not totally convinced in their own heart of what they believe. Just my opinion.

Paul said…

For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. 2 Tim 1:12

We should be totally convinced in what and who we believe.

If our faith wavers then we should seek for understanding from the Lord as to why, and ask him to help in our unbelief.

If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
A double minded man is unstable in all his ways. James 1:5, 8

To not be convinced in our theology is to be in confusion.

That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; Eph 4:14

But this is a growing process and Paul says in the next verse…

But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, [even] Christ: Eph 4:15

In the meantime we are to obey Pauls admonition when he says…

I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. Eph 4:1-3

Blessings WJ

August 19, 2008 at 7:19 pm#102178

Participant

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 20 2008,06:49)

Hi Not3,
Yes.
Given that he lives and manifests by the Spirit at work in all of his disciples who walk in his footsteps. So their work is a continuation of his work spreading the light throughout the conquered kingdom of darkness.

Lk1
1Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us,

2Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;

3It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,

4That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.

August 19, 2008 at 7:22 pm#102179

Participant

Hi WJ,
We should cling to what is of faith and what is of faith is written.
Whatever is not of faith is of sin.
Trinity is not written.

August 19, 2008 at 7:25 pm#102180

Participant

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 20 2008,06:49)

Mandy

This statement seems to say to me that you are not totally convinced the scriptures are inspired by God.

I am convinced they are because they have brought me truth that has changed my life.

Paul said…

But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. Gal 1:11, 12

Either Paul was lieing and he was a lunatic or he was telling the truth. I believe he was telling the truth, just as John and Peter and Luke and Mattew amd Mark and James were, and in fact I believe they were inspired by the Holy Spirit to pen the words of God.

The Spirit in me witnesses to their words, and their words have in many ways helped me and changed my life as well as others.

August 19, 2008 at 7:32 pm#102181

Participant

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 20 2008,06:52)

Quote (theodorej @ Aug. 20 2008,03:36)

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 20 2008,02:57)

Quote (TimothyVI @ Aug. 19 2008,22:43)

It's disappointing, isn't it?

As I've said recently, an open mind is a terrible thing to lose.

I wish the bible was more clear-cut.
I wish relying on “the Spirit” led to more consistent outcomes for everyone.
I wish the God we are supposed to know would be more knowable.

I wish, I wish, I wish…… I guess it is what it is. When the end of the day comes, we have our faith and we have love. Maybe that's all we really need?

Love,
Mandy

Hi Theo,

Love,
Mandy

Hi not3,
God owes no man anything and is sovereign over His creation.

We can only ponder these words and fear such a God and and enjoy the love He expresses to us.

It would be unwise to reflect on Him negatively because of of how He expresses Himself to others.

August 19, 2008 at 7:58 pm#102183

Participant

Hey bro,

Quote

I understand where you are coming from.

I also can appreciate where you are coming from. You have mentioned a few times before that you have been walking with the Lord for 34 years now and that you used to be a pastor. You have much invested in your theology. With much invested there is much to lose should you decide any part of your theology no longer fits. For some (I'm not implying you) it is too difficult a thing to ponder and they just “don't go there.”

Quote

If someone told you that God the Father didn't exist is there any amount of convincing words they could say to change yoiur mind?

No, because creation is a testimony in itself that God exists. No books are needed to tell you there is a grand designer. But as to who and what God is for individuals accross the earth, well, that changes according to culture and a host of other things.

Quote

My point is Black is Black, White is White, Truth is Truth, Lies are Lies.

How can this be true if accross the earth various people know God differently and by different names and traditions?

Gray is a beautiful color that adds depth, did you know that? For an artist, gray is an essential color on any palate. It's needed to make black and white stand out, for instance.

Quote

There are absolutes that leave no room for an “open mind”.

I don't know of any. Even in believing that God exists from his creation…..I am open to the fact that other's praise him under different names. I will not force a different people into the box of “Christianity”. Why should I? Even Jesus said he had “other” sheep he was tending to. Have you ever wondered who these other's are? Seems kind of gray to me….

Quote

Everyman must work out his own salvation with fear and trembling.

I believe Yeshua is my Lord and my God because I am totally convinced that he is.

I agree everyone needs to work out their own….. You believe that you are 100% correct in your belief about Jesus being God Almighty? There is no room for even one bit of doubt? You are saying you believe beyond-a-shadow-of-a-doubt? Because for me when I honestly reviewed the evidence and allowed my past convictions to chill for a bit – I saw room for error.

Quote

For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. 2 Tim 1:12

Of course Paul was totally convinced, he saw and heard the Lord Jesus! But even tho I haven't seen him, I believe him.

Quote

We should be totally convinced in what and who we believe.

Quote

To not be convinced in our theology is to be in confusion.

I love this quote from Tolkien: Not all who wander are lost.

If you are totally convinced of something you will never listen when new instructions come or have been found. For instance, if you were convinced of 1 John 5:7 back in the day, would you have lost faith when you found out it wasn't the word of God but the word of a scribe? What if someday they find a complete set of scrolls that contain the original letters of Paul, and they date back before anything we now have, and what if some of the theology you are now “totally convinced of” is not found in those letters?

Will you doubt God came to you and revealed himself? Probably….because how could you be misled? I'm just saying hold it lightly…. there are errors in what we hold between the leather binding. The so-called “Spirit”of God leads people in ALL KINDS OF DIRECTIONS, per the people. I don't see how black and white can exist due to these circumstances and possibilities?

Quote

Yes! This passage of scripture is like a healing cream over a burn. It makes your soul say, “Ahhhhhh”.

Much love to you and thank you for your thoughtful post to me, Keith. You're a true brother and you have my respect.
Mandy

August 19, 2008 at 8:05 pm#102184

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 20 2008,07:25)

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 20 2008,06:49)

Mandy

This statement seems to say to me that you are not totally convinced the scriptures are inspired by God.

I am convinced they are because they have brought me truth that has changed my life.

Paul said…

But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. Gal 1:11, 12

The Spirit in me witnesses to their words, and their words have in many ways helped me and changed my life as well as others.

I agree with nearly all that you say here and have a similar testimony.

But may I ask: did God inspire the errors as well as the other words?

August 19, 2008 at 8:07 pm#102185

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 20 2008,07:32)

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 20 2008,06:52)

Quote (theodorej @ Aug. 20 2008,03:36)

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 20 2008,02:57)

Quote (TimothyVI @ Aug. 19 2008,22:43)

It's disappointing, isn't it?

As I've said recently, an open mind is a terrible thing to lose.

I wish the bible was more clear-cut.
I wish relying on “the Spirit” led to more consistent outcomes for everyone.
I wish the God we are supposed to know would be more knowable.

I wish, I wish, I wish…… I guess it is what it is. When the end of the day comes, we have our faith and we have love. Maybe that's all we really need?

Love,
Mandy

Hi Theo,

Love,
Mandy

Hi not3,
God owes no man anything and is sovereign over His creation.

We can only ponder these words and fear such a God and and enjoy the love He expresses to us.

It would be unwise to reflect on Him negatively because of of how He expresses Himself to others.

Sure. I understand your position on this, Nick. It's not my position. I'm a child of God and sometimes children ask, “Why?”

August 19, 2008 at 8:11 pm#102187

Participant

go to your room.

August 19, 2008 at 8:23 pm#102188

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 20 2008,07:10)

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 20 2008,02:57)

Quote (TimothyVI @ Aug. 19 2008,22:43)

It's disappointing, isn't it?

As I've said recently, an open mind is a terrible thing to lose.

I wish the bible was more clear-cut.
I wish relying on “the Spirit” led to more consistent outcomes for everyone.
I wish the God we are supposed to know would be more knowable.

I wish, I wish, I wish…… I guess it is what it is. When the end of the day comes, we have our faith and we have love. Maybe that's all we really need?

Love,
Mandy

Hi Mandy

I understand where you are coming from.

But let me ask you this.

If someone told you that God the Father didn't exist is there any amount of convincing words they could say to change yoiur mind?

If you broke your leg and you were experiencing tremendous pain, would any amount of convincing words someone could say to you to change your mind about the pain yoiu feel?

My point is Black is Black, White is White, Truth is Truth, Lies are Lies.

There are absolutes that leave no room for an “open mind”.

To me to say that I should have an open mind about the possibility that God the Father may not exist would mean that I am not totally convinced that he does exist.

Everyman must work out his own salvation with fear and trembling.

Some would say that I give more honor to Yeshua than to the Father. According to John 5:23 is that possible?

The first words that came out of my heart was “Jesus save me” for the Spirit testified of him. The testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of Prophesy. Then Yeshua introduced me to the Father.

No one taught me to believe this way, I recieved him and knew him this way before I had even heard of a Trinity. I believe there are ample amount of scriptures that reveal this truth.

This is my experience and my belief and I try not to judge the hearts of others who do not believe this way, or who have not had my experience.

Sometimes I think the confusion comes because maybe some are not totally convinced in their own heart of what they believe. Just my opinion.

Paul said…

We should be totally convinced in what and who we believe.

If our faith wavers then we should seek for understanding from the Lord as to why, and ask him to help in our unbelief.

If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
A double minded man is unstable in all his ways. James 1:5, 8

To not be convinced in our theology is to be in confusion.

But this is a growing process and Paul says in the next verse…

But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, [even] Christ: Eph 4:15

In the meantime we are to obey Pauls admonition when he says…

Blessings WJ

Mandy

So in other words to you there are no absolutes?

August 19, 2008 at 8:24 pm#102189

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 20 2008,08:11)

go to your room.

:laugh:

August 19, 2008 at 8:27 pm#102191

Participant

Hi Keith,

Well I suppose that if I jump from the top of a skyrise I can absolutely know that I will not survive the fall. Is this what you mean?

August 19, 2008 at 8:28 pm#102192

Participant

But wait! There have been reports of people doing skydiving and their shoots not opening up…and they survive! So, scratch that absolute off my list…..

August 19, 2008 at 8:30 pm#102193

Participant

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 20 2008,08:28)

But wait! There have been reports of people doing skydiving and their shoots not opening up…and they survive! So, scratch that absolute off my list…..

Mandy

So then in other words a man cannot be absolutely sure of his salvation or of his experience with God?

August 19, 2008 at 8:35 pm#102195

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 20 2008,08:30)

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 20 2008,08:28)

But wait! There have been reports of people doing skydiving and their shoots not opening up…and they survive! So, scratch that absolute off my list…..

Mandy

So then in other words a man cannot be absolutely sure of his salvation or of his experience with God?

Not if it's based on a book that contains known errors. But again, I don't think it's necessarily needed. God said we can know him by looking at his creation.

August 19, 2008 at 8:36 pm#102196

Participant

WJ,
Did God inspire the errors, too?

August 19, 2008 at 8:41 pm#102199