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The Dark Age was characterised by devout fear of god, and they were the most backward time for humans in Europe. Ironic that Lucifer means light bringer, don't you think? Exactly how do you judge god “worthy” of any respect?
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Sep. 08 2008,22:47) The Dark Age was characterised by devout fear of god, and they were the most backward time for humans in Europe. Ironic that Lucifer means light bringer, don't you think? Exactly how do you judge god “worthy” of any respect? Stuart
Greetings Stu….I tend to disagree with you on your take on what perpertrated the dark ages and the ignorance that prevailed….During this period there was no media (eg.The written word,and the majority of the populus couldn,t read anyway) In steps the Pope/The Vatican, whose purpose was to perpetuate its own existance,and it was sucessfull,using violence and the fear of same….During this period there were any number of plagues that ravaged the masses,…amazing as it seems one of the very few groups that survived were the Jews,…mainly because they followed Gods biblical instruction regarding cleanliness and the consequences for the lack of it…In the dark ages there was a devout fear of the man who claimed to represent God…( The Pope aka..The Vicar of Christ )Quote (Stu @ Sep. 09 2008,22:15) What is 'devout fear'? Stuart
Greetings Stu….Wrong choice of words…Among the mases there was intense fear of the clergy( eg. Priests,Bishops and so on)…I would think that people who live in fear constantly are devoted to their condition of paranoia or cowardess…or bothQuote (theodorej @ Sep. 10 2008,22:57) I would think that people who live in fear constantly are devoted to their condition of paranoia or cowardess…or both
Hi Theodore,Isn't Christianity basically a fear based religion.
God says you must believe that I love you or I will send you to hell for eternity.
So these people were already conditioned to live in fear of the person speaking for God.TIm
Quote (TimothyVI @ Sep. 10 2008,23:48) Quote (theodorej @ Sep. 10 2008,22:57) I would think that people who live in fear constantly are devoted to their condition of paranoia or cowardess…or both
Hi Theodore,Isn't Christianity basically a fear based religion.
God says you must believe that I love you or I will send you to hell for eternity.
So these people were already conditioned to live in fear of the person speaking for God.TIm
Tim,I've been following your transformation of sorts……
Do you still belong to this “fear based” religion called Christianity?
Love,
MandyHi Mandy,
I am not sure how to answer your question, but I will try.
I still believe in God as the Creator.
I still believe in Jesus as His Son who was sent to show us
who God was. After all He had to straighten out the things that
Moses got wrong.As you can plainly tell, I do not believe the bible is the inspired word of God.
I think that God revealed Himself and some things were written about that
revelation. And then man started to add their imagination to the book.
Some of the 614 laws of Moses were useful and needed to keep the people
safe and in control. How better to get them to obey those laws than to say that they were sent by God?The strange thing is, I still like to read the bible. I do believe that God inspired some of it.
But for fear of not knowing which parts He did not inspire, Christians are forced to believe that the entire bible is inspired. Without that they feel that they have no foundation.I for one was much less comfortable being a Christian when I believed every word of the bible was true. Now I have left myself open to ridicule by Nick and others. But I had to answer honestly.
Tim
Thanks, Tim.
You have a kindred spirit here, with me. I agree with you and have adopted a very similiar belief system.
We all must work out our own salvation with fear and trembling.Thanks for being brave and answering my question.
Love,
MandySo Tim, who put the words in Jesus's mouth that we read in Timothy about the OT? Did Jesus endorse, edit or deny Moses?
Stuart
Hi Stu,
those are letters written to Timothy by Paul.
So I guess paul did.Jesus endorsed Moses because all Jews did.
Jesus would have never been able to teach anyone if He started out by denying Moses.
Jesus was a gifted orator.Did you ever read any Shakespeare?
“For Brutus is an honorable man;
So are they all, honorable men.”
Another gifted orator.Tim
“Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocre minds. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence.”
-Albert EinsteinI think the greatest race ever, is and was to win and claim the famous Jesus as heritage,
underhanded is human Nature,
and as desperate as to falsify texts to win.
I think they Make him say what every they wish to hear?Quote (Stu @ Sep. 11 2008,07:38) So Tim, who put the words in Jesus's mouth that we read in Timothy about the OT? Did Jesus endorse, edit or deny Moses? Stuart
Hi Stu,I am not certain that these are the verses that you are referring to, but it is interesting to note that in 2 Ti 3:15, Paul uses the Greek words heiron gramma for holy scriptures.
And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 2 Ti 3:15
Then in the next verse he uses the Greek words pas graphe, which means
All writing.All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 2 Ti 3:16
So Paul did not say all holy scriptures are profitable etc.
He said that all writings are profitable etc.
This is because ancient man was in awe of writing. Anything written down was
profitable for all the things that Paul stated, and then some.Tim
Quote (TimothyVI @ Sep. 11 2008,11:18)
Hi Stu,those are letters written to Timothy by Paul.
So I guess paul did.Jesus endorsed Moses because all Jews did.
Jesus would have never been able to teach anyone if He started out by denying Moses.
Jesus was a gifted orator.Did you ever read any Shakespeare?
“For Brutus is an honorable man;
So are they all, honorable men.”
Another gifted orator.Tim
Hi Tim
Quote (TimothyVI @ Sep. 11 2008,11:18) Jesus endorsed Moses because all Jews did.
Jesus would have never been able to teach anyone if He started out by denying Moses.
Jesus was a gifted orator.So Yeshua endorsed Moses who was a liar and deceiver, a dictator and anarchist, just so he could teach some?
Sorry, but I don’t think Yeshua sugar coated any words in order to reach certain ones with the truth. Yeshua spoke many hard things, like he was the “Bread of Life” and that men had to eat his flesh (the Word) and drink his blood (the Spirit) to have life in them. Many quit following him because they didn’t believe in cannibalism. It’s obvious they didn’t understand him as many do not today.
And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself. Luke 24:27
Whatever it was that Yeshua expounded to them, it was apparently not known about Yeshua without revelation. For though many knew the scriptures they still did not see nor understand that the Hebrew Scriptures spoke of Yeshua, and in fact by their “own understanding” of the scriptures they missed the Messiah and demanded his death.
And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Luke 24:44
It's interesting that before the Canon was put together that Yeshua spoke of the “Law of Moses” “the Prophets” and the “Psalms”.
The Greek translation of the Torah, the Septuagint was translated some 200 Years BC, , and was accepted by Yeshua as the scriptures. Nowhere does the scriptures or Yeshua give us a hint of any corruption, but in fact is recognized by Yeshua as the Word of God and is the very first thing that he did when he started his ministry.
The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears. Luke 4:18-21
Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words? John 5:45-47
And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not. Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. John 5:38, 39
Here Yeshua refers to the scriptures as being synonymous with the Word of God.
Yeshua taught men to believe in the scriptures and in his words. Men will always reject and criticize the written scriptures. I choose to follow Yeshua and put my trust in him and his words, and the words of Yeshua is to believe in Moses and his writings because if I believe not his writings then how can I believe his words.
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 11 2008,22:59) Yeshua taught men to believe in the scriptures and in his words. Men will always reject and criticize the written scriptures. I choose to follow Yeshua and put my trust in him and his words, and the words of Yeshua is to believe in Moses and his writings because if I believe not his writings then how can I believe his words.
That is good, but is it true?Jesus said “Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me.”.
You might say that you trust him, and trust in God, but you don't make the same distinction with God and Jesus that he himself made.
You prefer to contradict him in this area.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 11 2008,22:59) Yeshua taught men to believe in the scriptures and in his words. Men will always reject and criticize the written scriptures. I choose to follow Yeshua and put my trust in him and his words, and the words of Yeshua is to believe in Moses and his writings because if I believe not his writings then how can I believe his words. Hi t8
Quote (t8 @ Sep. 12 2008,00:18)
That is good, but is it true?Well lets see?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 11 2008,22:59) Yeshua taught men to believe in the scriptures and in his words. Men will always reject and criticize the written scriptures. I choose to follow Yeshua and put my trust in him and his words, and the words of Yeshua is to believe in Moses and his writings because if I believe not his writings then how can I believe his words. So which part do you think is not true? Is it the part where I should put my trust in Yeshua and “his Words”?
It seems to me rather than put a question mark beside my defense of the Scriptures you would say something in defense against those who do not believe in the writings of Moses. But, instead you accuse me of not speaking the truth. We know of what spirit that is.
Quote (t8 @ Sep. 12 2008,00:18)
Jesus said “Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me.”.You might say that you trust him, and trust in God, but you don't make the same distinction with God and Jesus that he himself made.
You prefer to contradict him in this area.
Again, it seems to me you are the one not making the distinction. You should read the verse in its context for Yeshua makes no distinction between him and God.
Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. John 14:1
You make the mistake of seeing verses like this as stating Yeshua is less than God. For you the verse reads “ye believe in God, believe also in me who is less than God”. Yet you can not make a distinction between the nature of the two.
You are the one contradicting Yeshua because Yeshua in the same context makes no distinction between him and God.
If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? John 14:7-9
But you would teach men to see Yeshua as less than God. You accuse me for believing Yeshua’s words and the words of the Apostles who agreed with him.
John and Thomas and Peter understood Yeshua’s words when they wrote…
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was fully God. John 1:1 NET
No one has ever seen God. The only one, himself God, who is in closest fellowship with the Father, has made God known. John 1:18 NET
Thomas replied to him, “My Lord and my God!” John 20:28 NET
From Simeon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ, have been granted a faith just as precious as ours. 2 Peter 1:1 NET
Are men to be slaves of a man or a demigod? Are men to be slaves of a man or a demigod?
You accuse me of not speaking the truth while at the same time you reject clear scriptures that teach Yeshua is God.
Here is three witnesses not counting Yeshua’s own words and not to mention the Apostle Paul.
Out of the mouths of 2 or 3 witnesses let every word be established.
WJ
Quote (Stu @ Sep. 12 2008,19:27) Hi Tim I appreciate your replies, and as you know my suspicion is that charity is right.
Stuart
Thank you stu.
I suspect that as well.Tim
Quote (charity @ Sep. 11 2008,13:26) “Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocre minds. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence.”
-Albert EinsteinI think the greatest race ever, is and was to win and claim the famous Jesus as heritage,
underhanded is human Nature,
and as desperate as to falsify texts to win.
I think they Make him say what every they wish to hear?
Hi CharityThe greatest Spirit of all times disagrees with Albert Einstein.
Yeshua taught men to give up their own minds and to die to self.
And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it. Mk 8:34, 35
Yeshua taught men that the greatest in the Kingdom was the least in this world and servant of all.
And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. Matt 18:3, 4
But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted. Matt 23:11, 12
The greatest Spirit is the one who lays down his life for and submit to a greater cause.
Very often a selfless act like this defies “human logic” or the wisdom of this world which is foolishness to God.
For this the greatest Spirit finds violent opposition from those who simply follow their own human logic rather than the wisdom of God.
Those who depend on their own human logic cannot understand how the greater Spirit can submit to hereditary prejudices like the teachings of Yeshua who states that he is the only way, the truth and the life.
The foolishness of God is greater than the wisdom of men.
WJ
In that case, WorshippingJesus, I restate my rejection of that ridiculous philosophy. To 'die to self' is just to take on someone else's ideology. How is the ideology of Jesus any better? Such is the stuff of governments that send their young to die in war in the name of a god and glory. Most of the 'good' of christianity has been done so much better by other philosophies, without requiring the death of its founder. Why subscribe to this deadly pomp?
Stuart
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