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Quote David…………Here is one for you, If the Saints are Joint Heirs (with) Jesus and are called a Kingdom of Priest a Royal Priesthood as He is also a High Priest, and Daniel said “THE SAINTS OF THE MOST HIGH SHALL POSSESS THE “KINGDOM” FOR EVER”. Then tell us what kingdom are these Saint going to Posses “FOREVER”. –Gene
Gene, I'm not exactly sure what you are asking. Are you contrasting the “forever” in your Bible with the “thousand years” that they are said to rule in Revelation? I just don't know what your point is.
Quote (david @ Aug. 16 2011,16:33) Quote (princess @ Aug. 14 2011,02:25) Quote (david @ Aug. 13 2011,13:08) Princess; “Do you not know that the holy ones will judge the world?”–1 Cor 6:2
REVELATION 20:4
“And I saw thrones, and there were those who sat down on them, and power of judging was given them. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed with the ax for the witness they bore to Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had worshiped neither the wild beast nor its image and who had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for a thousand years.”So, the holy ones (anointed; 144,000; co-heirs of the kingdom) will judge the world with Christ and will rule as kings with Christ.
It doesn't NEED to be that way Princess, but that is the way God has chosen. And I think the best illustration has to be that of a jury of your peers being chosen to judge you (and also to rule over the earth with Christ.)
david
David,The holy ones, what faith will they stem from ?
Princess, the scripture says:
“I saw the souls of those executed with the ax for the witness they bore to Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had worshiped neither the wild beast nor its image and who had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand.”So, this scripture seems to be speaking of some who witness about Jesus and speak about God. Also, they don't worship the wild beast, nor its image.
But, my point was that “power of judging was given them” and “the holy ones will judge the world,” and they will rule “as kings for a thousand years.”
This is one thing that those who make up the kingdom (government) will do. You had said you saw no “need” for rulers. I'm just pointing out what scripture says, and does it not seem to say there will be rulers?
David,What of the ones under the throne, clothed in white robes?
Hello David,
Quote So, this scripture seems to be speaking of some who witness about Jesus and speak about God Rev 6:9-11 And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony that they held, and they were crying with a great voice, saying, `Till when, O Master, the Holy and the True, dost Thou not judge and take vengeance of our blood from those dwelling upon the land?' and there was given to each one white robes, and it was said to them that they may rest themselves yet a little time, till may be fulfilled also their fellow-servants and their brethren, who are about to be killed–even as they.
Quote (princess @ Aug. 17 2011,13:23) Hello David, Quote So, this scripture seems to be speaking of some who witness about Jesus and speak about God Rev 6:9-11 And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony that they held, and they were crying with a great voice, saying, `Till when, O Master, the Holy and the True, dost Thou not judge and take vengeance of our blood from those dwelling upon the land?' and there was given to each one white robes, and it was said to them that they may rest themselves yet a little time, till may be fulfilled also their fellow-servants and their brethren, who are about to be killed–even as they.
Hi princessI knew which scripture you were speaking of. I still don't know what you are asking. You said:
“what of the ones under the throne…”?
What about them?
Quote (david @ Aug. 17 2011,11:06) What is the kingdom of God?
Hi David,The kingdom of God is righteousness, and peace, and joy in the HolySpirit. (Rom.14:17)
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (princess @ Aug. 17 2011,13:23) Hello David, Quote So, this scripture seems to be speaking of some who witness about Jesus and speak about God Rev 6:9-11 And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony that they held, and they were crying with a great voice, saying, `Till when, O Master, the Holy and the True, dost Thou not judge and take vengeance of our blood from those dwelling upon the land?' and there was given to each one white robes, and it was said to them that they may rest themselves yet a little time, till may be fulfilled also their fellow-servants and their brethren, who are about to be killed–even as they.
Hello DavidWould you consider these ones, (white robbed/under the throne) to be part of the rulers/judges?
David ………This is what i am talking about.
Rev 20:6…..> Blessed and holy is he that hath part int the first resurrection: on such the second death has no power, but they shall be priest of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. 7…> And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8…> And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle; the number is as the sands of the sea. 9…..> And they went up on the breath of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from GOD out of heaven, and devoured them.
Now David what happened to this Glorious Kingdom on earth of Christ and the Saints after the thousand years were finish it all collapsed and these people who were taught by Jesus and the Saint (ALL) failed and became decieved and were destroyed by Fire from Heaven by GOD.
POINT IS…..> if these people were in the Kingdom of GOD and taught by Jesus and the Saints then why did the (ALL) fail but the Saints and Jesus. Let me answer that for you OK< It was becasue the Kingdom of GOD, where GOD RULES, was not (IN) them And as a result when Satan was released they were easily decieved and fell away , while the Saints and Jesus Had the Spirit of GOD (IN) them hence the “Kingdom of GOD” was (IN) them and they remained Faithful and were not decieved as the rest of the world was.
“FOR THE KINGDOM OF GOD COMES NOT WITH OBSERVATION , IT IS (WITHIN) YOU.
peace and love to you and yours David………….gene
Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 17 2011,20:52) Quote (david @ Aug. 17 2011,11:06) What is the kingdom of God?
Hi David,The kingdom of God is righteousness, and peace, and joy in the HolySpirit. (Rom.14:17)
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
“For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit,”Ed, it doesn't say the kingdom “is” peace and joy, but it says it is “of” those things. In other words, its not about “eating and drinking” as opposed to actually being “eating and drinking.” No one thinks God's kingdom “is” eating and drinking. Similarly, God's kingdom isn't “a matter of” eating and drinking, but it concerned with and about righteousness, etc.
My question wasn't “what matters are involved with the kingdom” but “what is the kingdom of God.”?
Quote (princess @ Aug. 17 2011,22:57) Quote (princess @ Aug. 17 2011,13:23) Hello David, Quote So, this scripture seems to be speaking of some who witness about Jesus and speak about God Rev 6:9-11 And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony that they held, and they were crying with a great voice, saying, `Till when, O Master, the Holy and the True, dost Thou not judge and take vengeance of our blood from those dwelling upon the land?' and there was given to each one white robes, and it was said to them that they may rest themselves yet a little time, till may be fulfilled also their fellow-servants and their brethren, who are about to be killed–even as they.
Hello DavidWould you consider these ones, (white robbed/under the throne) to be part of the rulers/judges?
Yes.Sorry Gene.
Quote Rev 20:6…..> Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death has no power, but they shall be priest of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7…> And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8…> And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle; the number is as the sands of the sea. 9…..> And they went up on the breath of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from GOD out of heaven, and devoured them.Now David what happened to this Glorious Kingdom on earth of Christ and the Saints after the thousand years were finished? It all collapsed and these people who were taught by Jesus and the Saints (ALL) failed and became deceived and were destroyed by fire from Heaven by GOD.
Gene, the “them” that are devoured with fire are Satan's angels (demons). Yes, it says they went out to deceive the nations. But it doesn't give any number that were deceived. God destroyed them (the demons) and the next verse (10) explains that Satan was also hurled into the lake of fire. If I understand what you are saying, you think those on earth are all deceived and destroyed. The Bible doesn't actually say that.
Nowhere does it say that this kingdom collapsed. The Bible does say that after the thousand years, Jesus hands it over to his Father. Therefore, the kingdom remains.
Quote POINT IS…..> if these people were in the Kingdom of GOD and taught by Jesus and the Saints then why did they (ALL) fail but the Saints and Jesus. Doesn't say they all failed.
Quote Let me answer that for you OK< It was becasue the Kingdom of GOD, where GOD RULES, was not (IN) them And as a result when Satan was released they were easily decieved and fell away , while the Saints and Jesus Had the Spirit of GOD (IN) them hence the "Kingdom of GOD" was (IN) them and they remained Faithful and were not deceived as the rest of the world was. “FOR THE KINGDOM OF GOD COMES NOT WITH OBSERVATION , IT IS (WITHIN) YOU.
Please go back a couple pages where I discuss “within you” in detail. I don't discuss the first part of that verse. I could. But I would like for you to first read what I wrote about the “within you.”
david
Hi Gene. It's the 4th post on page six of this thread. I gave a rather long comment on the “within” you verse. As far as I can tell, all normal logic suggests that “within” is a mistraslation. Please see the actual post and any comments would be welcome.
David………….Can you see what your conviction cause you to do , First you inject into the scriptures the idea that it was the Demon and Satan it was talking abut there and in fact it was not talking about them it was talking about those people they influence which are Gog and Magog which are in the four corners of the entire world. They are people that were living in the Kingdom of Jesus Christ and the Saints, they did not have the Kingdom of GOD (IN) (the Holy Spirit (IN) them, so they were easily decieved by these demonic influences that come out of the Bottomless Pit. You are confusing the Kingdom of GOD with the Kingdom of Jesus Christ and the SAINTS. Forcing the text to meet you dogmas is what so many do here, if the text does not specifically say it you simple change the context and force the text to say what you want it to. The Trinitarians and Preexistences Here do the same thing. IMO
peace and love to you and yours David………………………………………………….gene
David! The Elect that will reign with Christ, are those that gave their lives for Christ in the first three centuries, especially….I don't believe that we qualify for that office… The multitude that stand in front of Gods Throne and worship Him day and night, have washed their robes white in the blood of the Lamb….. who are they??? Since Christ came and died for us, we are under the New Covenant in His blood and we might qualify fo that position, but that is not for sure….
Rev 7:9 ¶ After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
I also believe that the Kingdom now is Spiritual with all born again Christian…. The physical kingdom of God is to come…. God will dwell with men…only Spirit Beings however will bve able to see God and Christ… in all their glory…
Rev 21:1 ¶ And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God.
Revelation speaks of a new heaven and a new earth, but how is that meant…Mal 4:1 ¶ For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
This Scripture teaches that this earth is burned up…All will be renewed, not that this earth itself will be done away with… Christ will clean all things up and make it new again…. all IMO though….
Revelation is very hard to understand…. but there is also a Scripture that says this earth is preserved for the destruction of all evil men… Is that the Lake of Fire??? It looks like that….Peace to you and yours Irene
Hi Gene. First off, you were right– about it being people that that verse was referring to. I should have spent more than one minute looking at it.
Secondly, you were wrong– with your ad hominim type attack because I didn't even say what JW's believe! So please stop the ad hominims and let's logically discuss scripture.
Third, you say there are two “kingdom” one the kingdom of Jesus and the other the kingdom of God. Please provide some Biblical proof for this. Anything.
Fourth, please, let's discuss the main subject of your argument, that the kingdom is “within” a person. That scripture you are using, you are unable to discuss it. I would love to discuss it. I showed you where I gave my reasons. Please look at them and tell me why my logic is wrong if you can. Why ignore that post?
I think I must have had this scripture in mind, and just wasn't thinking when I posted what I did:
Jesus said that the goats would go off “into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels.” (Matthew 25:41)REVELATION 20:6-10
“Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years. 7 Now as soon as the thousand years have been ended, Satan will be let loose out of his prison, 8 and he will go out to mislead those nations in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Ma′gog, to gather them together for the war. The number of these is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they advanced over the breadth of the earth and encircled the camp of the holy ones and the beloved city. But fire came down out of heaven and devoured them. 10 And the Devil who was misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulphur, where both the wild beast and the false prophet [already were]; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.”So, the un-numbered amount of people on the earth who are deceived. Here's what JW's who agree with you say:
“Who could possibly side with Satan after a thousand years of joyful, upbuilding theocratic rule? Well, do not forget that Satan was able to mislead the perfect Adam and Eve while they were enjoying life in the Paradise of Eden. And he was able to lead astray heavenly angels who had seen the bad results of the original rebellion. (2 Peter 2:4; Jude 6) So we should not be surprised that some perfect humans will be enticed to follow Satan even after a delightful thousand years of rule by God’s Kingdom.”Anyway, now that we are on the same page concerning this, let's get back to your reasoning.
Quote Third, you say there are two “kingdom” one the kingdom of Jesus and the other the kingdom of God. Please provide some Biblical proof for this. Anything. Gene, regarding this idea of yours, if there are two kingdoms, and if after the 1000 years, Jesus hands over the kingdom (presumably his kingdom) then does this mean God has 2 kingdoms at this time?
Anyway, if you could provide some sort of Biblical reasoning on this, that would be helpful.
Quote Rev 20:6…..> Blessed and holy is he that hath part int the first resurrection: on such the second death has no power, but they shall be priest of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. 7…> And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8…> And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle; the number is as the sands of the sea. 9…..> And they went up on the breath of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from GOD out of heaven, and devoured them. Now David what happened to this Glorious Kingdom on earth of Christ and the Saints after the thousand years were finish it all collapsed and these people who were taught by Jesus and the Saint (ALL) failed and became decieved and were destroyed by Fire from Heaven by GOD.
Getting back to your orginal point, does it say “all” failed and became deceived? Does it say “it all collapesed”? And where does it say that? It says their number is as the sands of the sea? (That can either mean extremely large OR unknown, impossible to know) Either way, it doesn't say “all.”
Its the one final test. It doesn't mean the end of the “heavenly” kingdom. Remember, a kingdom (a word meaning government, or empire ruled by king) is ruled from “heaven” that being where Jesus, the ruler will be, along with the holy ones. These ones who “make up the kingdom” as the scripture says, have already been tested and that is why they have been chosen for this special privilege. Those on the earth, will still have that final test, where Satan is let loose. If some are deceived by him, how does this affect the government (kingdom) that rules over them?
Quote POINT IS…..> if these people were in the Kingdom of GOD and taught by Jesus and the Saints then why did the (ALL) fail but the Saints and Jesus.
They aren't robots. They have free will. The apostles were taught directly by Jesus and they made mistakes as well.
(I know, it is boggling to me that after the thousand years, some will fail that test. Maybe by then, they will have grown complacent, or forgotten what this world is like and what was left behind. Thinking of those that wandered through the dessert. EVEN after seeing what they saw, as they were freed, they still made horrible choices and turned away from God, right?So, there is a precedent.
Quote (david @ Aug. 28 2011,07:43) Quote Third, you say there are two “kingdom” one the kingdom of Jesus and the other the kingdom of God. Please provide some Biblical proof for this. Anything. Gene, regarding this idea of yours, if there are two kingdoms, and if after the 1000 years, Jesus hands over the kingdom (presumably his kingdom) then does this mean God has 2 kingdoms at this time?
Anyway, if you could provide some sort of Biblical reasoning on this, that would be helpful.
HI David………….This may help you brother, Rev 3:21…> To him that overcomes will I grant to sit with me in (MY) throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in (HIS) throne.And again….> Col 1:13……> Who has delivered us from the power of darkness, and has translated us (INTO) the kingdom (OF) his fear Son.
And again….> Luk 1:23….> He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord GOD shall give unto him the throne of his father DAVID” :
David at the end of Jesus and the Saints reign of a thousand years this Kingdom will be handed over to GOD the FATHER, and then Shall GOD be (IN) ALL and (THROUGH) all, but not until that happens. The Kingdom of Jesus and the Saints is the Kingdom of King David revived Jesus will sit on the Throne of his father DAVID and reestablish it on this earth. This throne is not the Throne of GOD the Father GOD the Fathers Throne takes place after the thousand year Period. IMO
peace and love to you and yours……………………..gene
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