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Yes. The great war (as world war 1 was called) was a pivitol point in history. For the first time, the world went to war. Many historians indicate that the world seemed to change at that time.
I'm wondering what you and a couple of other people think of these scriptures and how they relate to one another:
REVELATION 12:7-12
“And war broke out in heaven: Mi´cha·el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled but it did not prevail, neither was a place found for them any longer in heaven. So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him. And I heard a loud voice in heaven say: “Now have come to pass the salvation AND THE POWER AND THE KINGDOM OF OUR GOD AND THE AUTHORITY OF HIS CHRIST, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God! And they conquered him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their witnessing, and they did not love their souls even in the face of death. On this account be glad, YOU heavens and YOU who reside in them! WOE FOR THE EARTH and for the sea, BECAUSE THE DEVIL HAS COME DOWN TO YOU, HAVING GREAT ANGER, knowing he has A SHORT PERIOD OF TIME.””So there was a battle in heaven. Satan was hurled to the earth, and he's angry knowing his end is soon. It created great woe for the earth.
Then look at this scripture:REVELATION 6:2-8
“And I saw, and, look! a white horse; and the one seated upon it had a bow; and a crown was given him, and he went forth conquering and to complete his conquest. And when he opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say: “Come!” And another came forth, a fiery-colored horse; and to the one seated upon it there was granted to take peace away from the earth so that they should slaughter one another; and a great sword was given him. And when he opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say: “Come!” And I saw, and, look! a black horse; and the one seated upon it had a pair of scales in his hand. And I heard a voice as if in the midst of the four living creatures say: “A quart of wheat for a de·nar´i·us, and three quarts of barley for a de·nar´i·us; and do not harm the olive oil and the wine.” And when he opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say: “Come!” And I saw, and, look! a pale horse; and the one seated upon it had the name Death. And Ha´des was closely following him. And authority was given them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with a long sword and with food shortage and with deadly plague and by the wild beasts of the earth.”Just looking for thoughts on how these scriptures relate.
dave.
Hi david,
The second verses could describe the first world war, and the flu epidemic which killed twice as many as the war did, and the great Depression.
The first verses could describe the events of the Great tribulation.We know from Job 1-2 that Satan can cause disaster and accidents and weather changes and Jesus revealed his murderous nature.Right, if Satan, the ruler of the world, the god of this system of things, in whose hands the whole world is lying, was cast down to the earth, expelled from heaven, and was angry realizing that he has little time left, little time to prove his claims, little time before being abyssed, what would the world look like?
Would it look like the things described in Rev 6:2-8?You say that Rev 6:2-8 could describe the world wars, epidemics, etc. And I completely agree. But before those three horses that caused peace to be taken from the earth, war, death, etc, there was a rider on a white horse that went forth conquering to complete his conquest.
Could this rider that went forth conquering be what led to the other three horses?
What I mean is, could this conquering to complete his conquest be what Rev 12:7 is talking about, where Satan was battling and being hurled down to the earth with the demons? Would that not explain why the last three horseman of Revelation 6 make their appearance?
If Satan was hurled down to the earth after battling and it meant great woe or troubles for the earth as Rev 12 says, could these troubles not be the ones described in Rev 7?wondering what your thoughts are.
david.
Hi david,
The first horseman had a bow and a crown. These words have spiritual meanings. Most believe this is not Christ, who is far more powerful and glorious. Perhaps, being in white, false gospels… I have heard this view expressed.Since when have you ever cared what “most believe”?
“And I saw, and, look! a white horse; and the one seated upon it had a bow; and a crown was given him, and he went forth conquering and to complete his conquest.” (Revelation 6:2)
In the Bible, the horse often symbolizes warfare. (Psalm 20:7; Proverbs 21:31; Isaiah 31:1)
This horse, gleams with a whiteness that indicates unblemished holiness. (Compare Revelation 1:14; 4:4; 7:9; 20:11.)
How appropriate this is, for it portrays warfare that is clean and righteous in Jehovah’s holy eyes!—See also Revelation 19:11, 14.Who is the Rider of this horse?
He has a bow, an offensive weapon of war, but he is also given a crown. The only righteous ones seen wearing crowns during the Lord’s day are Jesus and the class represented by the 24 elders. (Daniel 7:13, 14, 27; Luke 1:31-33; Revelation 4:4, 10; 14:14)
It is unlikely that a member of the group of 24 elders would be pictured as receiving a crown on his own merit. Hence, Nick, you can see why one could think that this lone horseman must be Jesus Christ.
John sees him in heaven when Jehovah declares, “I, even I, have installed my king,” and tells him that this is for the purpose “that I may give nations as your inheritance.” (Psalm 2:6-8) Thus, in opening the first seal Jesus reveals how he himself, as the newly crowned King, sallies forth to war at God’s appointed time.
This scene harmonizes beautifully with Psalm 45:4-7, addressed to the King enthroned by Jehovah: “And in your splendor go on to success; ride in the cause of truth and humility and righteousness, and your right hand will instruct you in fear-inspiring things. Your arrows are sharp—under you peoples keep falling—in the heart of the enemies of the king. God is your throne to time indefinite, even forever; the scepter of your kingship is a scepter of uprightness. You have loved righteousness and you hate wickedness. That is why God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of exultation more than your partners.” Being familiar with that prophetic description, John would appreciate that it applies to Jesus’ activity as King.—Compare Hebrews 1:1, 2, 8, 9.But I didn't ask you about any of this. You tend to skip ahead and avoid the questions and jump right to the finish. I admire your conviction.
dave.
Hi David,
The 24 elders appear early in Revelation and are in heaven so they are unlikely to be men.“unlikely” to be men, or not men?
Men or not, this isn't really what we're discussing.
We're now discussing the identity of the one on the white horse who “went forth conquering and to complete his conquest.”
But before that, I was really wanting your opinion on how those two scriptures related. You don't think they really do. Ok, that's what I was wanting to know. Thankyou.
But then again, on the other hand, you have different fingers.
dave
Hi david,
Rev 6.2
” And I looked and behold, a white horse, and he who sat on it had a bow;and a crown was given to him;and he went out conquering and to conquer”
compare Rev 19.11 which we know is about Jesus Christ;
” And I saw heaven opened; and behold a white horse, and he who sat upon it is called faithful and true; and in righteousness he judges and wages war. And his eyes are a flame of fire, and upon his head are many diadems; and he has a name written upon himwhich no one knows except himself. And he is clothed with a robe dipped in blood; and his name is called the Word of God. And the armies which are in heaven clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following him on white horses. And out of his mouth comes a sharp sword..”
The Rev 6 scripture is the first of a series of horses that bring plagues upon men. Do you suggest that this one is out of context and instead brings blessing? It is vague and fairly nondescriptive about the rider compared with Rev 19. The horse may be white but nothing is said of the garb of the rider though Rev 19 describes the angels wearing white. Conquering and to conquer suggests an immediate and a long term affect of his arrival. If it represents a plague then false teaching and spiritual domination such as the Whore disperses for centuries may fit the bill. The bow kills but only if there are arrows. A crown symbolises power and authority but in a context of plagues may be false. The white horse may symbolise the vehicle of the bible truth being misused to lead men astray.OK, I understand why you reason that way. But nowhere does it say all those four horsemen of the apocalypse are bad. It's a common belief. (Apocalypse simply means unveiling or uncovering by the way, even thought that's not how it's thought.)
There aren't many references to people on white horses in the Bible. There's one in Zechariah were there are “white horses.” Other than revelation, I think that's it.
In Revelation 19, you point out that it is Jesus Christ on a “white horse” going to wage war. Yes, this is a much more detailed descrition, to be sure. Hence, easier to identify.
In Rev 6, we find the only other instance in Revelation other than Rev 19 (or any other book) where someone is singled out as being on a “white horse” to conquer. It must make one wonder.You say the white horse “may symbolize the vehicle of the bible truth being misused to lead men astray.”
Sometimes a horse is just a horse. The Bible tells us:
PROVERBS 21:31
“The horse is something prepared for the day of battle. . . .”This fits the thoughts in those verses.
Hi david,
A horse is also a symbol of power and strength and speed and it needs a whip and bit in it's mouth to be controlled[ Ps 32.9. Prov 26.3]. A man on a horse has great advantages over a footsoldier. Men love power and advantage and superiority.
but also Ps 33.17
” A horse is a false hope for victory, nor does it deliver anyone by it's great strength..”I was just reading and came across those verses again in Rev 6.
Something I don't think we mentioned was the colors of the horses.THE COLOR OF THE HORSES ALSO SEEMS TO BE REPRESENTATIVE.
Red horse, to take peace away. Red is a color of intensity, fire, blood, etc.
The same is true of the pale horse and the black horse. These colors both fit the words that come after them.
What does White symbolize?
What does it always symbolize in the Bible?Compare this with the the crown given the rider and I think this is a fairly strong argument.
dave.
ps. I've been gone for a while. I'm going to slow down in my replies and speak less on this forum.Quote (david @ Oct. 17 2005,22:47) I was just reading and came across those verses again in Rev 6.
Something I don't think we mentioned was the colors of the horses.THE COLOR OF THE HORSES ALSO SEEMS TO BE REPRESENTATIVE.
Red horse, to take peace away. Red is a color of intensity, fire, blood, etc.
The same is true of the pale horse and the black horse. These colors both fit the words that come after them.
What does White symbolize?
What does it always symbolize in the Bible?Compare this with the the crown given the rider and I think this is a fairly strong argument.
dave.
ps. I've been gone for a while. I'm going to slow down in my replies and speak less on this forum.
Hi david,
There is no mention of the rider wearing white though. Just because he has authority repesented by a crown does not mean he is of Godly appointment or mission though. As you say the argument is only “fairly strong” The bible is always much more definite when it wishes to make something clear.Quote The Kingdom is inside us. Do not let the Devil make you think the Kingdom is your denomination, or this so-called church or that one. The kingdom is inside you if you are born-again of the Spirit of God. T8, isn't the God's kingdom a government run by a king? Is a government inside us? It's true that Jesus said to the PHARASEES that the kingdom of God was in their midst. This is because the king of that kingdom was in their midst, among them. We must remember who Jesus said those words to. The kingdom of God was not in THEM. It was in their midst, as the king of it was.
Everywhere else in the Bible, we are shown that this kingdom is a real government. It is not something in men's hearts.An example:
DANIEL 2:44
““And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;”The white horse rider of Revelation which comes forth under the breaking of the first seal is said to go forth conquering and to conquer – the word translated conquer in the greek is NICAO I think. Which is the same word used in combination with LAOS to name the deeds of error that crept into the early church. And later developed into a doctrine called 'Nicolaitan' – meaning to conquer the peaple or rule the people. Something indicative of man-made organised religious systems – this white horse rider came in deception I believe – as we are seeing the first stage in a progression of four of the same spirit riding into the midst of the world – which was called by the early christians Antichrist – anti – being 'instead of ' more than directly against.
This spirit is given a crown – something we know will not occur with our Lord until his return.
And so I believe this is symbolic of the role of power and authority gained by the church in the 3rd century bc when church and state combined uder Constantine. From which emerged instead of the Pagan Roman Empire – the Papal Roman Empire. With a Pope as head instead of a Ceasar. A Vicar of Christ – the word vicar – meaning in the place of.
Yet we are told to call no man father for one is our Father in Heaven – (Pope = Papa = Father) and there is only one mediator between God and men – not the Pope – the man Christ Jesus.
IMHOHi Malcolm,
Interesting. I presume you meant “ad”. I read somewhere recently in the writings of the early church that the Nicolaitians were consumed by lust and had orgies etc.Hi,
Did the kingdom of God, or kingdom of heaven, begin when the Son of David walked the earth or does it only begin when Jesus returns in his glory as the Biblical Unitarians say?Don't you know what restoration means?
Dont you know what restitution means?The Kingdom of GOD that will be inaugurated at Christ's return will be a restoration of David's Kingdom, namely, the Kingdom of YAHWEH [1 Chr 28.5, 2 Chr 13.8]. That is when it began. GOD will restore it at Christ's return.
Christ will be enthroned on the throne of David. [Isa 9.7, Luke 1.32-33, Acts 2.30, etc]
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