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Hi david,
Are you sure that all you assemble with are one with the Lord? If so how were you and them joined with the Lord? Is the Spirit active in your assembly in prophecy and healing?Stuff you know Nick:
The Bible does not agree with the modern view that there are many acceptable ways to worship God. Ephesians 4:5 says there is “one Lord, one faith.” Jesus stated: “Narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it. . . . Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will.”—Matt. 7:13, 14, 21; see also 1 Corinthians 1:10.Stuff you should think about:
Repeatedly the Scriptures refer to the body of true Christian teachings as “the truth,” and Christianity is spoken of as “the way of the truth.” (1 Tim. 3:15; 2 John 1; 2 Pet. 2:2) Because Jehovah’s Witnesses base all of their beliefs, their standards for conduct, and organizational procedures on the Bible, their faith in the Bible itself as God’s Word gives them the conviction that what they have is indeed the truth.
Before we get back to them, let's again address the issue of whether true Christians would be organized or whether they would be all on their own, not together, not organized, as you say.DOES THE BIBLE SHOW THAT TRUE CHRISTIANS WOULD BE AN ORGANIZED PEOPLE?
Matt. 24:14; 28:19, 20: “This good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.” “Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them . . . teaching them.” (See also Acts 1:8; Rom 10:18; 11:13; Rev 14:6)
How would this be accomplished without organization? When Jesus trained his early disciples for this work, He did not simply tell each one to go wherever he desired and to share his faith in whatever way he chose. He trained them, gave them instructions and sent them out in an organized manner. See Luke 8:1; 9:1-6; 10:1-16.
DOES THE BIBLE SHOW THAT TRUE CHRISTIANS WOULD BE AN ORGANIZED PEOPLE?
Heb. 10:24, 25: “Let us consider one another to incite to love and fine works, not forsaking the gathering of ourselves together, as some have the custom, but encouraging one another, and all the more so as you behold the day drawing near.”
But to where would a person direct interested ones so they could obey this command if there were no organization with regular meetings where they could gather?
I'll say that once more, just for emphasis. Where would a person direct interested ones so they could obey this command if there were no organization with regular meetings where they could gather?DOES THE BIBLE SHOW THAT TRUE CHRISTIANS WOULD BE AN ORGANIZED PEOPLE?
1 Cor. 14:33, 40: “God is a God, not of disorder, but of peace. . . . Let all things take place decently and by arrangement.”
The apostle Paul is here discussing orderly procedure at congregation meetings. Applying this inspired counsel requires respect for organization.
DOES THE BIBLE SHOW THAT TRUE CHRISTIANS WOULD BE AN ORGANIZED PEOPLE?
1 Pet. 2:9, 17: “But you are ‘a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession, that you should declare abroad the excellencies’ of the one that called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. . . . Have love for the whole association of brothers.”
An association of people whose efforts are directed to accomplish a particular work is an organization.
ARE THOSE WHO ARE FAITHFUL SERVANTS OF GOD SIMPLY FAITHFUL INDIVIDUALS WHO ARE SCATTERED ABOUT?
1 Cor. 1:10: “Now I exhort you, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that you should all speak in agreement, and that there should not be divisions among you, but that you may be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.”
Can such unity exist where there is no organization?John 10:16: “I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.”
Since Jesus would bring such ones into “one flock,” is it not obvious that they would be an organized group?HOW CAN JEHOVAH'S VISIBLE ORGANIZATION IN OUR DAY BE IDENTIFIED?
(1) It truly exalts Jehovah as the only true God, magnifying his name.—Matt. 4:10; John 17:3.
(2) It fully recognizes the vital role of Jesus Christ in Jehovah’s purpose—as the vindicator of Jehovah’s sovereignty, the Chief Agent of life, the head of the Christian congregation, the ruling Messianic King.—Rev. 19:11-13; 12:10; Acts 5:31; Eph. 1:22, 23.
(3) It adheres closely to God’s inspired Word, basing all its teachings and standards of conduct on the Bible.—2 Tim. 3:16, 17.
(4) It keeps separate from the world.—Jas. 1:27; 4:4.
(5) It maintains a high level of moral cleanness among its members, because Jehovah himself is holy.—1 Pet. 1:15, 16; 1 Cor. 5:9-13.
(6) It devotes its principal efforts to doing the work that the Bible foretold for our day, namely, the preaching of the good news of God’s Kingdom in all the world for a witness.—Matt. 24:14.
(7) Despite human imperfections, its members cultivate and produce the fruits of God’s spirit—love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness, self-control—doing so to such a degree that it sets them apart from the world in general.—Gal. 5:22, 23; John 13:35.
OK, now to look at your many posts Nick.
The undeserved kindness of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you
davidHi david,
I would have expected you would first show how the individuals become one with Jesus Christ rather than starting with the human organisation and trying to prove they have some relationship with God.The right foundation must be laid on the true rock individually before the building that rises from that can claim any relationship to the Body of Christ.
Well, you expected wrong Nick.
You also keep spelling organization wrong. It bothers me just a little every time I see it. It's not a big thing. It's just that you do it every time.How would showing how the individuals become one with Jesus prove anything?
We can both say the same things Nick. In order to prove anything however, we have to look at the scriptures, see what they say, compare them to a group and see if they match.
If the Bible says for example that Jehovah's people must be clean, and we find one group with people who smoke in it, we have to wonder about them. Smoking isn't clean. It defiles the body. The 4000 chemicals produced by cigarette manufactures have to be disposed of very carefully. It's these visible difference that set us apart as a group and that can be seen.
Nick, I assume you don't smoke. So what? A lot of people don't smoke. You, not smoking, doesn't say a lot. Now imagine a group of thousands having an assembly. If none of them are smoking, that says a lot more, doesn't it?Quote (david @ Sep. 08 2005,07:19) Well, you expected wrong Nick.
You also keep spelling organization wrong. It bothers me just a little every time I see it. It's not a big thing. It's just that you do it every time.How would showing how the individuals become one with Jesus prove anything?
We can both say the same things Nick. In order to prove anything however, we have to look at the scriptures, see what they say, compare them to a group and see if they match.
If the Bible says for example that Jehovah's people must be clean, and we find one group with people who smoke in it, we have to wonder about them. Smoking isn't clean. It defiles the body. The 4000 chemicals produced by cigarette manufactures have to be disposed of very carefully. It's these visible difference that set us apart as a group and that can be seen.
Nick, I assume you don't smoke. So what? A lot of people don't smoke. You, not smoking, doesn't say a lot. Now imagine a group of thousands having an assembly. If none of them are smoking, that says a lot more, doesn't it?
Hi david,
Websters accepts both spellings -organisation and organization. Perhaps Americans have a PREFERENCE here ?You're american?
Hey, did you know that in 7 out of the last 10 years, the U.N. declared Canada the best country to live in?
Sorry, I didn't know you were american.
No Nick, it doesn't come down to law and works.
I WAS JUST POINTING OUT SOMETHING JESUS SAID:
By their fruits you will recognize those men.
Good fruit, good tree, bad fruit, bad tree
Good fruitage, true worship, bad fruitage, false worshipWhat I was attempting to get at, but you seem to have missed, was this:
You can stand there and say, I'm right.
I can stand here and say the same.Saying means nothing.
Hence, Jesus words above.
I also pointed out some further words of Jesus:
“By this all will know that YOU are my disciples, if YOU have love among yourselves.”” (John 13:35)It's really simple. If Jesus said that his followers would be doing certain things, things that everyone can see, and there's a group that's doing those things, whereas there's others not doing those things, what could we conclude?
Where do you live in the U.S.?
Quote (david @ Sep. 09 2005,00:57) You're american? Hey, did you know that in 7 out of the last 10 years, the U.N. declared Canada the best country to live in?
Sorry, I didn't know you were american.
Nope david. NZerWere you saying I was american?
I had thought you were from New Zealand.I'm from Canada.
I'm taking tonight off. I have to go.
dave
Quote (david @ Sep. 09 2005,01:04) No Nick, it doesn't come down to law and works. I WAS JUST POINTING OUT SOMETHING JESUS SAID:
By their fruits you will recognize those men.
Good fruit, good tree, bad fruit, bad tree
Good fruitage, true worship, bad fruitage, false worshipWhat I was attempting to get at, but you seem to have missed, was this:
You can stand there and say, I'm right.
I can stand here and say the same.Saying means nothing.
Hence, Jesus words above.
I also pointed out some further words of Jesus:
“By this all will know that YOU are my disciples, if YOU have love among yourselves.”” (John 13:35)It's really simple. If Jesus said that his followers would be doing certain things, things that everyone can see, and there's a group that's doing those things, whereas there's others not doing those things, what could we conclude?
Where do you live in the U.S.?
Hi david,
Lk 10.20
” Nevertheless do not rejoice in this , that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are recorded in heaven”
Phil 4.3
“Indeed true comrade, I ask you also to help these women, who have shared my struggle in the cause of the gospel, together with Clement also, and the rest of my fellow workers whose names ARE IN THE BOOK OF LIFE”
Revv 20.15
” And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown in the lake of fire”We need to know if our names are written and not hope our works are sufficient. They cannot be.
Quote (david @ Sep. 08 2005,06:19) Stuff you know Nick:
The Bible does not agree with the modern view that there are many acceptable ways to worship God. Ephesians 4:5 says there is “one Lord, one faith.” Jesus stated: “Narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it. . . . Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will.”—Matt. 7:13, 14, 21; see also 1 Corinthians 1:10.Stuff you should think about:
Repeatedly the Scriptures refer to the body of true Christian teachings as “the truth,” and Christianity is spoken of as “the way of the truth.” (1 Tim. 3:15; 2 John 1; 2 Pet. 2:2) Because Jehovah’s Witnesses base all of their beliefs, their standards for conduct, and organizational procedures on the Bible, their faith in the Bible itself as God’s Word gives them the conviction that what they have is indeed the truth.
Before we get back to them, let's again address the issue of whether true Christians would be organized or whether they would be all on their own, not together, not organized, as you say.DOES THE BIBLE SHOW THAT TRUE CHRISTIANS WOULD BE AN ORGANIZED PEOPLE?
Matt. 24:14; 28:19, 20: “This good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.” “Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them . . . teaching them.” (See also Acts 1:8; Rom 10:18; 11:13; Rev 14:6)
How would this be accomplished without organization? When Jesus trained his early disciples for this work, He did not simply tell each one to go wherever he desired and to share his faith in whatever way he chose. He trained them, gave them instructions and sent them out in an organized manner. See Luke 8:1; 9:1-6; 10:1-16.
DOES THE BIBLE SHOW THAT TRUE CHRISTIANS WOULD BE AN ORGANIZED PEOPLE?
Heb. 10:24, 25: “Let us consider one another to incite to love and fine works, not forsaking the gathering of ourselves together, as some have the custom, but encouraging one another, and all the more so as you behold the day drawing near.”
But to where would a person direct interested ones so they could obey this command if there were no organization with regular meetings where they could gather?
I'll say that once more, just for emphasis. Where would a person direct interested ones so they could obey this command if there were no organization with regular meetings where they could gather?DOES THE BIBLE SHOW THAT TRUE CHRISTIANS WOULD BE AN ORGANIZED PEOPLE?
1 Cor. 14:33, 40: “God is a God, not of disorder, but of peace. . . . Let all things take place decently and by arrangement.”
The apostle Paul is here discussing orderly procedure at congregation meetings. Applying this inspired counsel requires respect for organization.
DOES THE BIBLE SHOW THAT TRUE CHRISTIANS WOULD BE AN ORGANIZED PEOPLE?
1 Pet. 2:9, 17: “But you are ‘a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession, that you should declare abroad the excellencies’ of the one that called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. . . . Have love for the whole association of brothers.”
An association of people whose efforts are directed to accomplish a particular work is an organization.
ARE THOSE WHO ARE FAITHFUL SERVANTS OF GOD SIMPLY FAITHFUL INDIVIDUALS WHO ARE SCATTERED ABOUT?
1 Cor. 1:10: “Now I exhort you, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that you should all speak in agreement, and that there should not be divisions among you, but that you may be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.”
Can such unity exist where there is no organization?John 10:16: “I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.”
Since Jesus would bring such ones into “one flock,” is it not obvious that they would be an organized group?HOW CAN JEHOVAH'S VISIBLE ORGANIZATION IN OUR DAY BE IDENTIFIED?
(1) It truly exalts Jehovah as the only true God, magnifying his name.—Matt. 4:10; John 17:3.
(2) It fully recognizes the vital role of Jesus Christ in Jehovah’s purpose—as the vindicator of Jehovah’s sovereignty, the Chief Agent of life, the head of the Christian congregation, the ruling Messianic King.—Rev. 19:11-13; 12:10; Acts 5:31; Eph. 1:22, 23.
(3) It adheres closely to God’s inspired Word, basing all its teachings and standards of conduct on the Bible.—2 Tim. 3:16, 17.
(4) It keeps separate from the world.—Jas. 1:27; 4:4.
(5) It maintains a high level of moral cleanness among its members, because Jehovah himself is holy.—1 Pet. 1:15, 16; 1 Cor. 5:9-13.
(6) It devotes its principal efforts to doing the work that the Bible foretold for our day, namely, the preaching of the good news of God’s Kingdom in all the world for a witness.—Matt. 24:14.
(7) Despite human imperfections, its members cultivate and produce the fruits of God’s spirit—love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness, self-control—doing so to such a degree that it sets them apart from the world in general.—Gal. 5:22, 23; John 13:35.
OK, now to look at your many posts Nick.
The undeserved kindness of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you
david
Hi david,
It is not possible to “cultivate the fruits of the Spirit” unless one has received the Spirit.The seed must be planted before it can grow.
Acts 191f
” … Paul , having passed through the upper country came to Ephesus and found some disciples, and he said to them
'Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?'
and they said to him
'No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit'
…and when Paul laid his hands on them the Holy Spirit came on them and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying””
This conversation is pointless unless Paul expected them to know they had received the Spirit. The result of receiving the Spirit was obvious in signs and wonders to all present.Nothing has changed.
Hi,
When Jesus comes again it will be as a thief in the night. Yet we are not meant to be caught unawares. Scripture tells us of many dramatic happenings before his return that should be easy for anyone with access to a bible to recognise.But as I read it most will be totally oblivious. This suggests we can easily misconstrue the situation. Either events happen locally [eg Jerusalem and Israel as with eclipses]or things happen over several generations rather than all at the same time.
What do others think?
The way to not be caught unaware is to be awake all the time.
It will be just like the days of Noah. They took no note until the flood came and swept them all away. So the presence of the son of man will be. And this despite the good news of the kingdom being preached everywhere.
I'm uncertain why you say events would either be happening only locally or over several generations rather than all at the same time. Why do you say this?
dave.
Hi david,
Because it would seem that even the stupidest of men could not miss the amazing events predicted before he comes.[eg Is ch 24]Quote (david @ Oct. 08 2005,08:45) The way to not be caught unaware is to be awake all the time. It will be just like the days of Noah. They took no note until the flood came and swept them all away. So the presence of the son of man will be. And this despite the good news of the kingdom being preached everywhere.
I'm uncertain why you say events would either be happening only locally or over several generations rather than all at the same time. Why do you say this?
dave.
Hi David,
So you are aware of the times and awake in the Spirit? You have a fresh supply of oil on hand lest your lamp dims?Nick wrote:
“Hi david,
Because it would seem that even the stupidest of men could not miss the amazing events predicted before he comes.[eg Is ch 24] “We must not forget that Satan rules this world. People, in their hard-hearteness have allowed themselves to be blinded by this world's god. (2 cor 4:4)
To you it may be completely obvious that God is not part of a trinity. To most, it is not.
Remember too all the prophecy's pointing to Jesus. People should have known the time and place and the events surrounding his life. It should have been so clear that Jesus was the Christ. Remember that they were “in expectation,” thinking perhaps John was the Christ. Did the Jews figure it out? The few discerning ones did. Most did not.I'm wondering if there are any scriptures to suggest:
“Either events happen locally [eg Jerusalem and Israel as with eclipses]or things happen over several generations rather than all at the same time.”dave
Hi david,
The apparent conflict is between scriptures which suggests it is business as usual with men and women marrying up till the last minute and Christ coming as a thief in the night-and the awful events of the time of Revelation,Is 24 and 2 Peter etc.
But what eclipses are visible over the whole earth? What earthquakes involve the whole earth? Certainly the great wars involved the whole earth-could they have been shown in scripture as part of the end times?
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