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I do not expect answers from either of us to be on a daily basis due to our lives. I do however prefer that this be kept between you and I for now.
What you say keeper of the forum, let’s both be in the hot seat and see who gets burnt or who shines bright?
To set the record straight, which position are you basing your view on.
The Universe came into existence from:
a) A God/Creator/Intelligence
b) Nothing
c) Something non-living/aware.Feel free to offer a fourth point if none of the above fit. And we will discuss that first in that case.
Also, how many sugars?
I don't know T8.
Many gods take credit for creating the universe.
Are you using 'nothing' as an adjective or pronoun?
Something non-living but aware, in the physical form impossible. Spirit form possible.But in your line of thinking A & C are one in the same.
In all honesty T8, I am here now. What about you? How does ones desicion on how the universe was made impact another's life? How does it help?
One sugar please, thank you.
Clarification.
Was the universe created by an eternal God;
Has the universe always existed in some form (eternal);
Did the universe come from nothing (non-eternal)?You don't need to read too much into it at this stage. These are wide statements that each cover a different view point.
If you don't believe in a God, that leaves the other two options.
Do you want a double chocolate Tim Tam with your tea?
Eternal.
No double choc anything……..have you gone mad?
How about some cranberry orange scones, side of lemon curd?Quote (princess @ June 21 2013,17:03) Eternal. No double choc anything……..have you gone mad?
How about some cranberry orange scones, side of lemon curd?
Has the universe always existed in some form (eternal).So you choose the eternal something that is now the Universe, and before the Big Bang was something else.
Just checking before I proceed.
Quote (princess @ June 21 2013,17:03) How about some cranberry orange scones, side of lemon curd?
Feel free to bring them along.Physicists will tell you that the Universe had a beginning. However, I am the first to admit that scientists get things wrong all the time. That said, you are arguing against their current belief which I don't have a problem with.
Physicists also say that everything you see in the Universe today, was predetermined at the moment of the Big Bang. The reason the Mily Way is the way it is goes way back to the initial explosion of a singularity. This singularity was not uniform and thus the clumps or denser parts of the early Universe forms the patterns and shapes we see today. They even have a map of the early Universe which is a measurement of the background radiation that is still with us today. Believe it or not, that radiation is what old analogue TVs see when they are off station. Those fuzzy dots.
Thus Physicists will tell you point blank that everything in the Universe today was predetermined at the very beginning of the Universe. In other words, the Universe hasn't been adding new data and things. It is just a stretching of the hugely dense singularity that existed in the beginning.
Do you agree with them, or do you believe that new things are coming into the Universe right out of nothing and being added to the Universe?
I know this is a terrible way of putting this T8 then again this is a discussion about how we see things. Using your opening comment
Quote *Christians* will tell you that the Universe had a beginning. However, I am the first to admit that the *Christians* get things wrong all the time. That said, you are arguing against their current belief which I don't have a problem with. I could continue with word play with your entire statement but I see no reason. Most assured you understand my point.
And to answer your question:
Quote Do you agree with them, or do you believe that new things are coming into the Universe right out of nothing and being added to the Universe? I am going to conclude that you are speaking about matter/material. Then the answer would be no, being found is not new to the universe. It is only new when found by humanity. It has always been, it just becomes known.
Becareful T8 by using the nothing to something. Remember, your god was once unknown to the universe. Then along came man and choose the name, book, gender and attributes of your god. All the wonder and awe of the unknown was taken away. Now books are slammed, words are thrown around and blood is splattered. The innocence is no longer there. Your god even takes it away at birth. Why is that T8?
Okay here is what you believe.
The Universe at the moment is the latest version of something eternal and non-living. At the moment it is the Universe, could be something else, billions or trillions of our Earth years from now.
This is your belief system I take it.
Yes / No ?
Quote (princess @ June 30 2013,03:11) *Christians* will tell you that the Universe had a beginning. However, I am the first to admit that the *Christians* get things wrong all the time. That said, you are arguing against their current belief which I don't have a problem with.
I take it from this statement that you disagree with both Christians and with the accepted theories of Scientists.While this certainly doesn't make your view wrong in itself, the odds are stacked against you from the start.
We will see how you go when I ask challenging questions about your eternal non-living thingy theory.
Quote (princess @ June 30 2013,03:11) Becareful T8 by using the nothing to something. Remember, your god was once unknown to the universe. Then along came man and choose the name, book, gender and attributes of your god. All the wonder and awe of the unknown was taken away. Now books are slammed, words are thrown around and blood is splattered. The innocence is no longer there. Your god even takes it away at birth. Why is that T8?
This is irrelivant to the debate of what caused the universe.1) God
2) Something eternal, but non-living
3) NothingYour comment is a tangent off a tangent off a tangent. It assumes that there is something eternal, but non-living, then assumes that this non-living eternal thingy gave rise to life of which itself does not possess, then one species of those living things created the creator of the universe in his own head.
A lot of assumptions here.
How about we take it in logical steps. At the moment we are at the 1 2 3 stage as to what caused the Universe. Jumping the gun too early is not helpful. For example if choice 2 is impossible, then your tangents are all wiped out at the root.
Let's argue this logically.
“When you have eliminated all which is impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.”
Um……T8.
Before you sound the victory call………take a moment and reflect.
Are we basing the conversation with the before/after of your clarification (i.e. non-living all of a sudden coming into play with eternal).
Call it what you want T8, don't change the rules in the middle of the game. Life can get busy and things can get shuffled around and things you have wrote a million times can become second nature to you and your mind just goes there without thought. If this is the case T8 let me know. It is completely unhealthy for me to continue then, due to the fact you are not really paying attention.
Hence the OP of time is not an issue.
“Deep listening is miraculous for both listener and speaker. When someone receives us with open-hearted, non-judging, intensely interested listening, our spirits expand.” Sue Patton
Quote (t8 @ July 01 2013,19:33) Okay here is what you believe. The Universe at the moment is the latest version of something eternal and non-living. At the moment it is the Universe, could be something else, billions or trillions of our Earth years from now.
This is your belief system I take it.
Yes / No ?
Remove the non-living and you are close.The universe can change years from now as it did years from the past.
Quote (t8 @ July 01 2013,21:37) Quote (princess @ June 30 2013,03:11) Becareful T8 by using the nothing to something. Remember, your god was once unknown to the universe. Then along came man and choose the name, book, gender and attributes of your god. All the wonder and awe of the unknown was taken away. Now books are slammed, words are thrown around and blood is splattered. The innocence is no longer there. Your god even takes it away at birth. Why is that T8?
This is irrelivant to the debate of what caused the universe.1) God
2) Something eternal, but non-living
3) NothingYour comment is a tangent off a tangent off a tangent. It assumes that there is something eternal, but non-living, then assumes that this non-living eternal thingy gave rise to life of which itself does not possess, then one species of those living things created the creator of the universe in his own head.
A lot of assumptions here.
How about we take it in logical steps. At the moment we are at the 1 2 3 stage as to what caused the Universe. Jumping the gun too early is not helpful. For example if choice 2 is impossible, then your tangents are all wiped out at the root.
Let's argue this logically.
“When you have eliminated all which is impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.”
Quote This is irrelivant to the debate of what caused the universe. Alright, then god cannot be brought into the debate of what caused the universe.
So you believe spirit is non living. Interesting.
Summary so far.
Correct me if I am wrong.
We both realise that something cannot come from nothing.
We both realise that the source of the Universe must be eternal because if it were not, then it came from nothing at some point before that which we already know is impossible.So here is logically what we have:
1) Something eternal
2) Something that produced design beyond anything we can understand
3) Something that produced life
4) Something that produced light and love
5) Something that essentially must still exist if it is infinite/eternal.
6) Something that must possess the qualities that it producedConclusion: An eternal living designer that loves and still exists now. In other words, God.
Case closed.
Unless you want to reopen it of course.
How do you know that eternal is your gods doing? What proof do you really have? A book?
Listen T8, I don't know who you are trying to convince me or you I do know though, your male deity is not the eternal. You have just chosen him to be. Which is where your path has ended.
But like I said before, with all your studies and what you know, it is getting harder for me to believe you when you present such things to be a truth. Such a shame you have much to offer and could most likely do more with your talents but have been imprisoned.
There is no disagreement about eternal however the main disagreement comes when you attach a male deity and and male demi god to the matter, just muddies the waters.
It is not my fault that man has taken something so pure and contaminated it, however it is my fault if I let man try to do the same to me.
You believe in a book that has a god as the main character. What man has done to the purity of it is such a shame, taken what was given and made it for what they wanted.
There in lies the difference. So the case with you has been closed for a long time now. For me, it is just getting started and oh what a journey it has become.
Take care T8. Enjoy your day!
hi princess
i see good discussion ,good points on both sides ,if i may put a grain of salt in it ,now that it seems close ,
tell me princess ,intelligence comes from where or from whom
if we have any of it ;what use is it foranimals have some but very limited and yet all in the wild as remain the same for thousands of years ,(lets ignoring the coming of men for now )
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