The jewish messiah

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December 16, 2010 at 4:40 pm#229049

Participant

Hi Laurel,
Greetings, in fact you talk like any ordinary Christian who uphold all N.T as it is. I gave lot of objections on N.T scriptures which deviate much from the Hebrew Bible. Please go through this thread from the beginning you find n-number of such objections. Try answering them by yourself. I am still waiting to see if Jesus was Jewish Messiah. So far I could not be convinced by brother Kerwin or others on this thread. You can also try for sure. Please go through the link I have given in my previous post on Jesus' genealogies for more such objections. Here is the main link : http://messianicprophecy.netfirms.com/

I am leaving on Christmas vacation to see my family and I'll back in the New Year. Wish U all Merry Christmas and blessed New Year 2011.

May Yahweh Elohim bless you all
Shalom
Adam

December 16, 2010 at 6:24 pm#229056

Baker

Participant

Adam! You deny Jesus being our Savior, because He is not the Jewish messiah? Are you out of your mind…. The Jews killed Him, and they will do anything to change the Torah like it is today to ease their concision. You are not a Christian at all. I will pray for you, you need itr……Peace Irene

January 24, 2011 at 5:03 am#234315

gollamudi

Participant

For Sis Irene…….

Maimonides' views of Jesus:
According to Maimonides Jesus of Nazareth is not the Messiah, as is claimed by Christians.
“As for Jesus of Nazareth, who claimed to be the anointed one and was condemned by the Sanhedrin. Daniel had already prophesied about him, thus: 'And the children of your people's rebels shall raise themselves to set up prophecy and will stumble.'[4] Can there be a bigger stumbling block than this? All the Prophets said that the anointed one saves Israel and rescues them, gathers their strayed ones and strengthens their mitzvot whereas this one caused the loss of Israel by sword, and to scatter their remnant and humiliate them, and to change the Torah and to cause most of the world to erroneously worship a god besides the Lord. But the human mind has no power to reach the thoughts of the Creator, for his thoughts and ways are unlike ours. All these matters of Yeshu of Nazareth and of Muhammad who stood up after him are only intended to pave the way for the anointed king, and to mend the entire world to worship God together, thus: 'For then I shall turn a clear tongue to the nations to call all in the Name of the Lord and to worship him with one shoulder.'”
“How is this? The entire world had become filled with the issues of the anointed one and of the Torah and the Laws, and these issues had spread out unto faraway islands and among many nations uncircumcised in the heart, and they discuss these issues and the Torah's laws. These say: These Laws were true but are already defunct in these days, and do not rule for the following generations; whereas the other ones say: There are secret layers in them and they are not to be treated literally, and the Messiah had come and revealed their secret meanings. But when the anointed king will truly rise and succeed and will be raised and uplifted, they all immediately turn about and know that their fathers inherited falsehood, and their prophets and ancestors led them astray.”

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_messianism

January 24, 2011 at 4:38 pm#234350

GeneBalthrop

Participant

Quote (Baker @ Dec. 17 2010,04:24)

Irene………..This is how you start personal attacks, and later when people attack you back you go and cry fowl. You are appearing to be quite a manipulator here. IMO

Adam has alway been honest in his posts and presented good questions and causes people to question some of their beliefs and that is good for us all. IMO

gene

January 25, 2011 at 4:28 am#234423

gollamudi

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 25 2011,02:38)

Quote (Baker @ Dec. 17 2010,04:24)

Irene………..This is how you start personal attacks, and later when people attack you back you go and cry fowl. You are appearing to be quite a manipulator here. IMO

Adam has alway been honest in his posts and presented good questions and causes people to question some of their beliefs and that is good for us all. IMO

gene

Thank you brother Gene, for appreciating my honesty in putting forth arguments here for clearing our doubts on various issues which are not so clear in our Bible.

Love and peace to you
Adam

January 25, 2011 at 11:41 am#234429

kerwin

Participant

To all,

I tested the spirit of the hypothesis of Maimonides and found that he seemed to have dropped the detail that those who rebel are carried along by the spirit of the destroyers. This would not fit true followers of Jesus as they are instructed that their enemies are not flesh and blood in nature.

It is true that Jesus is a stone over who the wicked stumble even as Isaiah states in Isaiah 11:18 for God lives in Jesus and makes him a capstone.

References:

Daniel 11:14-15(NIV)

14 “In those times many will rise against the king of the South. Those who are violent among your own people will rebel in fulfillment of the vision, but without success. 15 Then the king of the North will come and build up siege ramps and will capture a fortified city. The forces of the South will be powerless to resist; even their best troops will not have the strength to stand

Daniel 11:14-15(Young's Literal Translation)

14and in those times many do stand up against the king of the south, and sons of the destroyers of thy people do lift themselves up to establish the vision — and they have stumbled.
15`And the king of the north cometh in, and poureth out a mount, and hath captured fenced cities; and the arms of the south do not stand, nor the people of his choice, yea, there is no power to stand.

Isaiah 8(NIV)
11 This is what the LORD says to me with his strong hand upon me, warning me not to follow the way of this people:
12 “Do not call conspiracy
everything this people calls a conspiracy;
do not fear what they fear,
and do not dread it.
13 The LORD Almighty is the one you are to regard as holy,
he is the one you are to fear,
he is the one you are to dread.
14 He will be a holy place;
for both Israel and Judah he will be
a stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall.
And for the people of Jerusalem he will be
a trap and a snare.
15 Many of them will stumble;
they will fall and be broken,
they will be snared and captured.”
16 Bind up this testimony of warning
and seal up God’s instruction among my disciples.
17 I will wait for the LORD,
who is hiding his face from the descendants of Jacob.
I will put my trust in him.
18 Here am I, and the children the LORD has given me. We are signs and symbols in Israel from the LORD Almighty, who dwells on Mount Zion.

January 25, 2011 at 2:02 pm#234432

theodorej

Participant

Quote (gollamudi @ Jan. 24 2011,15:03)

For Sis Irene…….

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_messianism

Greetings G….You present a very valid view with reference to the the events in history with respect to the messiah but let us not forget that the events that bring us to where we are today are a result of man rejecting Gods law and creating his own version….This is what was underway when Jesus started his ministry…Jesus' ministry was purposed for the Jews and was intent on restating the Law,which at that time had already been added to and taken from by the religous elite..His Gospel was the good news of his kingdom and there was no need for all these ridiculous displays of piety through ritual that were being foisted on the masses by the religous elite of his time…The direction man was headed as a result of organized religion or lack of same would result in the loss of salvation as well as an end to his plan….God is perfect in every way and for that reason he saw fit to give us a man that would stand for all of us and make the supreme sacrafice in our stead so as to set the record straight…That record is that it is the will of the father that no one should perish…..The unfortunate circumstance is that the Gospel of the Kingdom has been modified by man once again and for that reason there will be a purging of the earth and a second coming of the King of Kings and Lord of Lords,this time there will be an establishment of Gods government because man has had six thousand years to get it right and has failed…It is very easy to deminish the significance of Jesus' ministry if there is a lack of understanding of its purpose…He proclaimed Gods plan for his government/kingdom and did not come to change neither a dot or a titl of the law…He did come to abolish the ritualistic nonsense that was the practice of Judism at the time…

January 25, 2011 at 5:18 pm#234454

gollamudi

Participant

Hi brother Theodorej,
Thanks for your response on my post above. So you believe that Jesus' death changed every thing on this earth. But this supreme sacrifice was not mentioned in Hebrew Bible for Messiah. He will be a warrior and political leader who will establish God's kingdom on earth. Jesus' kingdom is not of this world as per the claims of NT writers so he can not fit for a Jewish Messiah. He proclaimed that God's kingdom would be established in his own generation but unfortunately he was no more on this earth. But Christianity claims that he is now ruling from heaven which is not supported again by Hebrew Bible. I hope you will agree with me that God's Laws are still binding on God's people especially on Jewish people. Jesus was not a new preacher for Judaism in the first century there were other leaders like Hillel, Ben Dosa etc who also preached radical Judaism. I believe Jesus to be a pious Jew than a god-man which was labelled and believed by Christianity. There is no concept of second coming for Jewish Messiah it is only the interpretation of Christianity as Jesus did not fulfill any of the major requirements for being a Jewish Messiah when he was on this earth.
I hope you will look into these aspects of Messiah.

Thanks and peace to you
Adam

January 26, 2011 at 11:24 am#234498

kerwin

Participant

Adam,

You wrote:

Quote

He will be a warrior and political leader who will establish God's kingdom on earth.

Jesus is a warrior and political leader as scripture testifies. Have you not read that he was appointed to the political and warrior position of King? David was also a warrior king though his enemies were flesh and blood but Jesus battles the real enemies of a people who hunger and thirst for righteousness, Ephesians 6:10-17. If you do not fight these enemies then you are numbered with the enemy even as The Lord answers Habakkuk in Habakkuk 2:2-4. There is also a saying in Proverbs 11:6 that is about the same topic. The weapon Jesus will use is the sword of his mouth which is the sword of the Spirit of God.

The psalms, Psalms 110:1, do testify of Jesus ruling over David and you would understand that if you believe what God states for David prophesizes of the coming Messiah and calls him Lord and we know David was the King of Israel and another King would merely be his equal. So it follows the Messiah’s authority is superior to that of David.

I know of nowhere in scripture that we are told how long the Messiah will take to accomplish his purpose; if you know otherwise then please give scripture. Otherwise you are making an unsubstantiated claim.

References:

Quote

Ephesians 6(NIV)

10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13 Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14 Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15 and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16 In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God

Habakkuk 2(NIV)

2 Then the LORD replied:
“Write down the revelation
and make it plain on tablets
so that a herald may run with it.
3 For the revelation awaits an appointed time;
it speaks of the end
and will not prove false.
Though it linger, wait for it;
it will certainly come
and will not delay.
4 “See, the enemy is puffed up;
his desires are not upright—
but the righteous person will live by his faithfulness.

Proverbs 11:6(NIV)

The righteousness of the upright delivers them, but the unfaithful are trapped by evil desires.
Psalm 110(NIV)
1 The LORD says to my lord
“Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet.”
2 The LORD will extend your mighty scepter from Zion, saying,
“Rule in the midst of your enemies!”
3 Your troops will be willing
on your day of battle.
Arrayed in holy splendor,
your young men will come to you
like dew from the morning’s womb.
4 The LORD has sworn
and will not change his mind:
“You are a priest forever,
in the order of Melchizedek.”
5 The Lord is at your right hand;
he will crush kings on the day of his wrath.
6 He will judge the nations, heaping up the dead
and crushing the rulers of the whole earth.
7 He will drink from a brook along the way,
and so he will lift his head high.

January 27, 2011 at 4:30 pm#234555

gollamudi

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 26 2011,21:24)

Adam,

You wrote:

Quote

He will be a warrior and political leader who will establish God's kingdom on earth.

Hi brother Kerwin,
I think you are speaking like any preexistent believer in the other thread stating that Jesus is more than a man. I hope you will answer brother Mike in the other thread on Matt 22 where Jesus referred to Messiah as more than a man which is claimed by brother Mike.

'Jesus is warrior and political leader' is some thing strange as per your explanation on Christian spirit mythology than Hebrew scriptural evidence.

Judaism never claims any particular date for Messianic era but it bases its beliefs on Hebrew Bible. It is unfortunate that Christian apologists failed in their predictions on Jesus' second coming many times in the history right from Jesus himself including Paul and other early Christians. I am not going in that trap of Christianity.

Thanks and peace to you
Adam

January 27, 2011 at 7:24 pm#234569

theodorej

Participant

Quote (gollamudi @ Jan. 26 2011,03:18)

Thanks and peace to you
Adam

Greetings G…. I whole heartedly agree that the Law still stands and that Jesus' ministry was not purposed to change any of it…The confusion starts with Jesus' statement to Pilate regarding the where abouts of his kingdom..He said it is not of this world and that was indeed the case,however the purpose of Jesus ministry was to proclaim the good news of the coming kingdom/government of God…The unfortunate reality is that the Jews of that day were looking for it to be established in their time because of the Roman oppression.Jesus was indeed the jewish messiah both tribally and scriptually….the apostles were purposed to preach the kingdom to the gentiles and Jesus was for and of the Jews and was rejected..ISA:53

January 27, 2011 at 9:41 pm#234576

kerwin

Participant

Adam,

About the date of the Messiah’s return to this world I only know that Jesus himself did and may still not know. So I find it hard to believe that after stating that he would turn around and say something that proved he did know. I admit though those ignorant and corrupt men misinterpret scriptures. That is why only those with a broken spirit and a contrite heart will inherit the earth in the time after Judgment Day and anyone else will experience the flames of Gehenna.

At no point did I declare Jesus to be other than a human being; so I am not sure what you mean by more than human. Jesus does use the Spirit of God like a surgeon uses a scalpel but only because God granted him the authority to do so. He uses that authority to cleanse us from the will we have to chase after our evil desires. That corrupt will is acknowledged by some of those heretic theologians that call themselves Jews. After all they like Paul teach of the “Yetzer Hara” which Paul translated to a Greek word that in turn was translated to” flesh”

The enemies of a man of God are his own evil desires as they can kill his soul while those of flesh and blood can merely destroy his body. Why else do you think Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego were willing to die the death of the flesh in the service of God?

References:

Here is an article about Yetzer Hara.

January 28, 2011 at 3:59 am#234604

gollamudi

Participant

Quote (theodorej @ Jan. 28 2011,05:24)

Quote (gollamudi @ Jan. 26 2011,03:18)

Thanks and peace to you
Adam

Thank you very much brother Theodorej for such agreement. In fact I too agree that Jesus only preached about the coming God's kingdom than establishing it in his own time.

Thanks and peace to you
Adam

January 28, 2011 at 4:02 am#234605

gollamudi

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 28 2011,07:41)

Adam,

About the date of the Messiah’s return to this world I only know that Jesus himself did and may still not know. So I find it hard to believe that after stating that he would turn around and say something that proved he did know. I admit though those ignorant and corrupt men misinterpret scriptures. That is why those with a broken spirit and a contrite heart will inherit the earth in the time after Judgment Day and anyone else will experience the flames of Gehenna.

The enemies of a man of God are his own evil desires as the can kill his soul while those of flesh and blood can merely destroy his body. Why else do you think Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego were willing to die the death of the flesh in the service of God?

References:

Here is an article about Yetzer Hara.

Thank you very much brother for your belief on Jesus being the human than preexisting spirit being. I agree with most of your post above.

Thanks and peace to you
Adam

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