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Quote (bodhitharta @ July 27 2009,14:24) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 28 2009,05:19) Quote (Gene @ July 27 2009,13:15) Thinker ……….again with the shell game, Jesus was (DEAD) without life at all. Just like you and I will be,unless we are changed at the return of Jesus, and Jesus would have never raised from the grave if GOD the FATHER did not raise HIM , He was completely dead, helpless, without life. Just the same as you and i and all man kind who died are, ” For the dead Know not nothing in the day they die, there thoughts Parish”. There is (NON) risen yet but Jesus Christ as scripture says. If He was the first risen then no one could have proceeded him not even Abraham or David, as Peter said about David He is both dead and buried he is NOT RISEN. Thinker the SPirit of GOD does not die, but the person does. and until he raised and recieves another body he remains that way. IMO peace and love……………….gene
GeneStudy the scriptures, for death is the “body without the Spirit”.
The seperation of the Spirit/soul that lives in this body or temple is what death is.
Jesus was in hell (Hades) “Alive” for three days and three nights.
Paul said “To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord!
WJ
So Jesus's body died for your sins? If that is the case then why be crucified he would have eventually died and given his body up anyway.So in what way did he take the place of sinners?
BDThat is what you say. But nowhere does the scriptures say Jesus would have died if they had not killed him.
Jesus said he had the power to lay down his life and to take it again.
Jesus was without sin so death could not hold him and if he would have not been killed he would have lived forever In that body for he was the resurection and the life, the eternal life that was with the Father!
WJ
Quote (thethinker @ July 28 2009,06:21) Gene said:: Quote thinker……..In the day that ADAM ate he did die, a thousand years is as a day with GOD , so ADAM did DIE in the DAY he ate . Exactly! He died in the very day he ate. But he still had life. Therefore, death does NOT mean “no life at all.” Your view of death is totally unscriptural.
thinker
No, That's not the case Adam didn't die that day and lived a long life because Adam repented.Al-Baqara- Surah 2
37 Then learnt Adam from his Lord words of inspiration, and his Lord Turned towards him; for He is Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 28 2009,06:28) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 27 2009,14:24) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 28 2009,05:19) Quote (Gene @ July 27 2009,13:15) Thinker ……….again with the shell game, Jesus was (DEAD) without life at all. Just like you and I will be,unless we are changed at the return of Jesus, and Jesus would have never raised from the grave if GOD the FATHER did not raise HIM , He was completely dead, helpless, without life. Just the same as you and i and all man kind who died are, ” For the dead Know not nothing in the day they die, there thoughts Parish”. There is (NON) risen yet but Jesus Christ as scripture says. If He was the first risen then no one could have proceeded him not even Abraham or David, as Peter said about David He is both dead and buried he is NOT RISEN. Thinker the SPirit of GOD does not die, but the person does. and until he raised and recieves another body he remains that way. IMO peace and love……………….gene
GeneStudy the scriptures, for death is the “body without the Spirit”.
The seperation of the Spirit/soul that lives in this body or temple is what death is.
Jesus was in hell (Hades) “Alive” for three days and three nights.
Paul said “To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord!
WJ
So Jesus's body died for your sins? If that is the case then why be crucified he would have eventually died and given his body up anyway.So in what way did he take the place of sinners?
BDThat is what you say. But nowhere does the scriptures say Jesus would have died if they had not killed him.
Jesus said he had the power to lay down his life and to take it again.
Jesus was without sin so death could not hold him and if he would have not been killed he would have lived forever In that body for he was the resurection and the life, the eternal life that was with the Father!
WJ
So when did Jesus take on sin? was it when he was on the cross?Did he then become sinless after he was raised from the dead?
BTW, Why do you keep saying Jesus was resurrected? Wasn't he “raised”?
Was Lazarus resurrected too?
Quote (bodhitharta @ July 27 2009,14:38) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 28 2009,06:28) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 27 2009,14:24) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 28 2009,05:19) Quote (Gene @ July 27 2009,13:15) Thinker ……….again with the shell game, Jesus was (DEAD) without life at all. Just like you and I will be,unless we are changed at the return of Jesus, and Jesus would have never raised from the grave if GOD the FATHER did not raise HIM , He was completely dead, helpless, without life. Just the same as you and i and all man kind who died are, ” For the dead Know not nothing in the day they die, there thoughts Parish”. There is (NON) risen yet but Jesus Christ as scripture says. If He was the first risen then no one could have proceeded him not even Abraham or David, as Peter said about David He is both dead and buried he is NOT RISEN. Thinker the SPirit of GOD does not die, but the person does. and until he raised and recieves another body he remains that way. IMO peace and love……………….gene
GeneStudy the scriptures, for death is the “body without the Spirit”.
The seperation of the Spirit/soul that lives in this body or temple is what death is.
Jesus was in hell (Hades) “Alive” for three days and three nights.
Paul said “To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord!
WJ
So Jesus's body died for your sins? If that is the case then why be crucified he would have eventually died and given his body up anyway.So in what way did he take the place of sinners?
BDThat is what you say. But nowhere does the scriptures say Jesus would have died if they had not killed him.
Jesus said he had the power to lay down his life and to take it again.
Jesus was without sin so death could not hold him and if he would have not been killed he would have lived forever In that body for he was the resurection and the life, the eternal life that was with the Father!
WJ
So when did Jesus take on sin? was it when he was on the cross?Did he then become sinless after he was raised from the dead?
BTW, Why do you keep saying Jesus was resurrected? Wasn't he “raised”?
Was Lazarus resurrected too?
BDIt is obvious you do not understand Christian terms.
When a Christian says resurection it means scripturally his body was raised and Jesus said he would raise his own body..
Jesus like the sacrifices in the Tabernacle of Moses became the Passover Lamb. Like that animal sacrifices when the priest offered them on the alter they bore the sins of the people, for according to scriptures all things are purged by the blood.
Jesus bore the sin of the world in his body which he gave as a sacrifice for our sins.
He was wounded for our transgressions, bruised for our iniquities and the chastisement of ou peace was upon him. Isa 53:4-9
He became the sacrificial Lamb of God for the sins of the world.
That is the Christian doctrine taught in the Bible which the qoran does not teach.
Read the book of Hebrews and you will see what true Christianity is about.
WJ
Quote (bodhitharta @ July 28 2009,06:24) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 28 2009,05:19) Quote (Gene @ July 27 2009,13:15) Thinker ……….again with the shell game, Jesus was (DEAD) without life at all. Just like you and I will be,unless we are changed at the return of Jesus, and Jesus would have never raised from the grave if GOD the FATHER did not raise HIM , He was completely dead, helpless, without life. Just the same as you and i and all man kind who died are, ” For the dead Know not nothing in the day they die, there thoughts Parish”. There is (NON) risen yet but Jesus Christ as scripture says. If He was the first risen then no one could have proceeded him not even Abraham or David, as Peter said about David He is both dead and buried he is NOT RISEN. Thinker the SPirit of GOD does not die, but the person does. and until he raised and recieves another body he remains that way. IMO peace and love……………….gene
GeneStudy the scriptures, for death is the “body without the Spirit”.
The seperation of the Spirit/soul that lives in this body or temple is what death is.
Jesus was in hell (Hades) “Alive” for three days and three nights.
Paul said “To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord!
WJ
So Jesus's body died for your sins? If that is the case then why be crucified he would have eventually died and given his body up anyway.So in what way did he take the place of sinners?
The spirit that inhabited the body still suffered the pain. Bodies without spirits cannot suffer pain. Pinch a dead body and it cannot react. Cut it into many pieces and it still cannot react. Then pinch a body with a spirit and it will yell. Take a chain saw to a body that is joined with a spirit and the spirit will suffer at the very sight of it. It is the spirit of Jesus that actually suffered.I thought you guys had some common sense here.
thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 27 2009,14:59) Hi WJ,
Jesus died.
NHSo he didnt go into hades for three days and three nights and preach to the spirits in prison?
WJ
Hi WJ,
Indeed the abiding Spirit of God was and is yet in him.
He lives in that Spirit as do the prophets and sons of the resurrection.That is our hope too.
Nick……….They don't understand that , because they think Jesus himself is GOD, not that GOD was in HIM. They don't get the concept of GOD indwelling a person and giving him understanding via (HIS) Spirit and that person himself not being a GOD. They don't understand that GOD can be in (ALL) and THROUGH ALL. WE know that GOD was reconciling the WORLD (THROUGH) Jesus, not by being HIM. AS the false teaching of the trinity says. IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………………..gene
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 28 2009,07:09) Hi WJ,
Indeed the abiding Spirit of God was and is yet in him.
He lives in that Spirit as do the prophets and sons of the resurrection.That is our hope too.
Nonsense Nick! You are trying to have it both ways.thinker
Quote (bodhitharta @ July 28 2009,06:31) Quote (thethinker @ July 28 2009,06:21) Gene said:: Quote thinker……..In the day that ADAM ate he did die, a thousand years is as a day with GOD , so ADAM did DIE in the DAY he ate . Exactly! He died in the very day he ate. But he still had life. Therefore, death does NOT mean “no life at all.” Your view of death is totally unscriptural.
thinker
No, That's not the case Adam didn't die that day and lived a long life because Adam repented.Al-Baqara- Surah 2
37 Then learnt Adam from his Lord words of inspiration, and his Lord Turned towards him; for He is Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.
Then God is a liar and His threats are meaningless. Btw, the Hebrew literally says, “in dying you shall die.” Death no where in Scripture means “no life at all” as Gene says. He offers us that definition without any scripture to back it up. Jesus said that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were “living.”thinker
Quote (Gene @ July 28 2009,08:35) Nick……….They don't understand that , because they think Jesus himself is GOD, not that GOD was in HIM. They don't get the concept of GOD indwelling a person and giving him understanding via (HIS) Spirit and that person himself not being a GOD. They don't understand that GOD can be in (ALL) and THROUGH ALL. WE know that GOD was reconciling the WORLD (THROUGH) Jesus, not by being HIM. AS the false teaching of the trinity says. IMO peace and love to you and yours…………………..gene
Gene,
Was Jesus lying when He said that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were “living?” Was Paul mistaken when he said that Jesus descended into hades and preached to spirits? Were the disciples hallucinating when they saw Moses appear with Jesus on the Mount of transfiguration? If death means “no life at all” as you say, then explain all this. How could Jesus raise up His body in three days if He had “no life at all?” Paul said “I die daily.” How could Paul die daily if death means “no life at all?” What Bible are you reading man?
Doesn't it bother you that you are on the side of the Sadducees while Jesus and Paul were not? Either answer these point directly of be quiet!
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ July 28 2009,11:29) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 28 2009,06:31) Quote (thethinker @ July 28 2009,06:21) Gene said:: Quote thinker……..In the day that ADAM ate he did die, a thousand years is as a day with GOD , so ADAM did DIE in the DAY he ate . Exactly! He died in the very day he ate. But he still had life. Therefore, death does NOT mean “no life at all.” Your view of death is totally unscriptural.
thinker
No, That's not the case Adam didn't die that day and lived a long life because Adam repented.Al-Baqara- Surah 2
37 Then learnt Adam from his Lord words of inspiration, and his Lord Turned towards him; for He is Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.
Then God is a liar and His threats are meaningless. Btw, the Hebrew literally says, “in dying you shall die.” death no where in Scripture means “no life at all” as gene says. He offers us that definition without any scripture to back it up. Jesus said that Abraham, Isaac and jacob were “living.”thinker
So Jesus didn't die?Why did you say that God was a liar are you simply misunderstanding that God can forgive whomever he pleases.
Adam sinned and was punished do you not think that God can then forgive Adam and Eve?
God forgave Cain and even helped him.
Ezekiel 33
11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
12 Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.
It seems that The Islamic teaching on the subject is more in line with what God says in these scriptures. So, Adam sinned and did not die because he repented and was forgiven.
No need to talk about a day is as a thousand years to God or he died meaning he was seperated from God the Fact is Adam repented as God inspired him to do so. God did not stay upset with Adam.
Even Satan said God will not kill you because Just like Jonas said.
Jonah 4
2And he prayed unto the LORD, and said, I pray thee, O LORD, was not this my saying, when I was yet in my country? Therefore I fled before unto Tarshish: for I knew that thou art a gracious God, and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repentest thee of the evil.You see God had pity on Adam because Adam could not discern right from wrong just like the people in ninevah
11 And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?
Thinker……….. scripture says when a man dies His thoughts parish………Now how can a man with not thoughts still be alive. To think Jesus did not actually die (completely) is to deny scripture and also what Jesus said , remember he said He (was dead) and (NOW) he was alive for ever more. When He was dead He was not alive and His thought were perished as scripture says what happens when a man dies.” for in the day he dies his thought parish”. Dead people do not think because they can't think they are dead. There spirit (intellect) goes back to him who gave it, they are no longer aware of anything and stay that way until they are resurrected back to life by GOD the FATHER and given an imperishable body as Jesus was. IMO
peace and love…………………..gene
Quote (Gene @ July 28 2009,14:28) Thinker……….. scripture says when a man dies His thoughts parish………Now how can a man with not thoughts still be alive. To think Jesus did not actually die (completely) is to deny scripture and also what Jesus said , remember he said He (was dead) and (NOW) he was alive for ever more. When He was dead He was not alive and His thought were perished as scripture says what happens when a man dies.” for in the day he dies his thought parish”. Dead people do not think because they can't think they are dead. There spirit (intellect) goes back to him who gave it, they are no longer aware of anything and stay that way until they are resurrected back to life by GOD the FATHER and given an imperishable body as Jesus was. Gene,
You said that the scriptures say that a man's thoughts perish when he dies. You offered no scriptures to back it up. Hear the parable of the rich man and lazarus:Quote `And — a certain man was rich, and was clothed in purple and fine linen, making merry sumptuously every day, 20and there was a certain poor man, by name Lazarus, who was laid at his porch, full of sores,
21and desiring to be filled from the crumbs that are falling from the table of the rich man; yea, also the dogs, coming, were licking his sores.
22`And it came to pass, that the poor man died, and that he was carried away by the messengers to the bosom of Abraham — and the rich man also died, and was buried;
23and in the hades having lifted up his eyes, being in torments, he doth see Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom,
24and having cried, he said, Father Abraham, deal kindly with me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and may cool my tongue, because I am distressed in this flame.
25`And Abraham said, Child, remember that thou did receive — thou — thy good things in thy life, and Lazarus in like manner the evil things, and now he is comforted, and thou art distressed;
26and besides all these things, between us and you a great chasm is fixed, so that they who are willing to go over from hence unto you are not able, nor do they from thence to us pass through.
27`And he said, I pray thee, then, father, that thou mayest send him to the house of my father,
28for I have five brothers, so that he may thoroughly testify to them, that they also may not come to this place of torment.
29`Abraham saith to him, They have Moses and the prophets, let them hear them;
30and he said, No, father Abraham, but if any one from the dead may go unto them, they will reform.
31And he said to him, If Moses and the prophets they do not hear, neither if one may rise out of the dead will they be persuaded.'
The rich man remembered his former life. So how can you say that his thoughts perish? Lazarus went to the bosom of Abraham which means that death could not have meant “no life at all.” The rich man even asked Abraham to send Lazarus to relieve him of his suffering. This means that both Abraham and Lazarus were alive. You didn't answer even one point I gave you. Why? Jesus said that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were LIVING.
Quote To think Jesus did not actually die (completely) is to deny scripture and also what Jesus said , remember he said He (was dead) and (NOW) he was alive for ever more. Jesus did actually die in the SAME WAY all men die. No man is without “no life at all” when he dies. Death does NOT mean “no life at all.” You are a Sadducee. Please give scriptures for the things you say and stop wasting everyone's time.
thinker
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