- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Quote (journey42 @ Nov. 25 2013,11:20) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 25 2013,16:06) Quote (journey42 @ Nov. 25 2013,08:56) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 20 2013,10:47) Quote Have you no comments about the fact that Jesus quoted the LXX version of Isaiah 61:1-2 in Luke 4:18-19? Mike, I have no idea what you are talking about. Let's look at those verses.
KJV
Isaiah 61:1 The spirit of the LORD GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the broken-hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives,. and the opening of the prison to them that are are boundIsaiah 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
Luke 4:17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias, And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written.
Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the LORD is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the broken-hearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
Luke 4:19 To preach the acceptable year of the LORD.Luke 4:20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them at were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
Journey,Luke 4:20 omits the word “God” from the title “the Lord God” that is in Isaiah 61:1.
Luke 4:20 replaced the words “the Lord” that is in Isaiah 61:1 with the pronoun “he”.
Luke 4:20 replaced the words “good tidings” that is in Isaiah 61:1 with the word”gospel”.
Luke 4:20 replaced the word “meek” that is in Isaiah 61:1 with the word”poor”.
Luke 4:20 replaced the words “bind up” that is in Isaiah 61:1 with the word”heal”.
Luke 4:20 replaced the word “liberty” that is in Isaiah 61:1 with the word”deliverance”.
Luke 4:20 omits the phrase “and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;” that is in Isaiah 61:1.
Luke 4:20 adds the phrase “and recovering of sight to the blind” that is not in Isaiah 61:1.
Luke 4:20 adds the phrase ” to set at liberty them that are bruised” that is not in Isaiah 61:1.That is 9 changes between the the KJV says the quoted verse is and what the KJV says Jesus quoted. Three of them are phrases that are either added or omitted.
Kerwin,If you don't mind, I only wish to discuss this with Mike. He has been waiting for me to answer him for a while now.
I read what you said, and you even quoted the wrong verse. If there are changes, then they are not made by the KJV, but the newer versions who are telling all the lies.
Journey,Actually this is a new conversation based on the same verses.
I did make a technical error and put the wrong label on the verse, it is Luke 4:18 and not Luke 4:20 that is supposed to be a quote of Isaiah 61:1. Thanks to you I have now corrected it in my original.
I have previously addressed the differences and neither you or wakeup have chosen to answer.
All I can see is *confusion*.
They have succeeded in creating *confusions*.
Do not think that the jews are for Christ,
for they are antichrist.wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ Nov. 25 2013,14:17) All I can see is *confusion*.
They have succeeded in creating *confusions*.
Do not think that the jews are for Christ,
for they are antichrist.wakeup.
Wakeup,I am not antisemitic and so I acknowledge that any heresy is an antichrist teaching.
I don't see much, if anything, out there that is not antichrist in that is falls short of the glory of God.
I do not believe I have brought up what the Jews have taught but I know better than to throw everything they teach in this day out because they are heretics. Instead I search through it for the kernels of truth and discard the chaff.
Quote (2besee @ Nov. 25 2013,16:40) Quote Journey, I don't mean to interrupt here, but do you know what plagiarism is? It is copying/attempting to pass off another authors work as if it is ones own, without giving credit. In some cases it can be illegal. So always make sure to state that you are quoting another persons work. It is the respectable and proper thing to do. There is more that can be learnt about plagiarism on the net. ok.
2BesseAs if you care?
References
Modern Bible Versions, and Westcott and Hort by Pastor Tobin Pedersonhttp://www.1611kingjamesbible.com/tischendorf.html/
I have tons of info saved on my computer, from many sites. Even sites that are against the KJV.
I understand what I am talking about now, and now it's up to you guys to check it out..what they have done and what their motive is.Just google whatever and bingo!
If it's straight forward, then theres no need to change wording. It's simple and easy to understand.
AND I DO KNOW WHAT PLAGIARISM IS ……
IT'S WHAT THE NEWER BIBLE VERSIONS ARE DOING TO THE ORIGINAL WORD OF GOD.
Do you care about that? Or just care about me getting into trouble?or care to prove those statements wrong?
Quote (tigger2 @ Nov. 25 2013,17:01) the plagiarist
That JW spirit in you is manifesting. It looks ugly from this end. You should try the KJV. The truth is in there.Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 25 2013,19:24) Quote (Wakeup @ Nov. 25 2013,14:17) All I can see is *confusion*.
They have succeeded in creating *confusions*.
Do not think that the jews are for Christ,
for they are antichrist.wakeup.
Wakeup,I am not antisemitic and so I acknowledge that any heresy is an antichrist teaching.
I don't see much, if anything, out there that is not antichrist in that is falls short of the glory of God.
I do not believe I have brought up what the Jews have taught but I know better than to throw everything they teach in this day out because they are heretics. Instead I search through it for the kernels of truth and discard the chaff.
Kerwin.There is no truth in them,
for they are against the Son of God.
They have their own Messiah; and waiting for
HIM to come, and serve God in the new temple.
He will be the **False prophet** mentioned in revelation.
Beware of the wolf in sheeps clothing.wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ Nov. 25 2013,14:35) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 25 2013,19:24) Quote (Wakeup @ Nov. 25 2013,14:17) All I can see is *confusion*.
They have succeeded in creating *confusions*.
Do not think that the jews are for Christ,
for they are antichrist.wakeup.
Wakeup,I am not antisemitic and so I acknowledge that any heresy is an antichrist teaching.
I don't see much, if anything, out there that is not antichrist in that is falls short of the glory of God.
I do not believe I have brought up what the Jews have taught but I know better than to throw everything they teach in this day out because they are heretics. Instead I search through it for the kernels of truth and discard the chaff.
Kerwin.There is no truth in them,
for they are against the Son of God.
They have their own Messiah; and waiting for
HIM to come, and serve God in the new temple.
He will be the **False prophet** mentioned in revelation.
Beware of the wolf in sheeps clothing.wakeup.
Wakeup,Jesus Christ is among the Jews. In condemning them you condemn him. So I am going to assume you are speaking of the non-Christian traditions of Judaism because if you claim to be a Christian that does not follow the Jewish religion then are a liar for the prophets of old followed the Jewish religion. As for the heretics, whatever they choose to call themselves, there teaching fall short of the glory of God. That is another way of saying there is no truth in them even though they contain kernels of truth.
Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 25 2013,19:53) Quote (Wakeup @ Nov. 25 2013,14:35) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 25 2013,19:24) Quote (Wakeup @ Nov. 25 2013,14:17) All I can see is *confusion*.
They have succeeded in creating *confusions*.
Do not think that the jews are for Christ,
for they are antichrist.wakeup.
Wakeup,I am not antisemitic and so I acknowledge that any heresy is an antichrist teaching.
I don't see much, if anything, out there that is not antichrist in that is falls short of the glory of God.
I do not believe I have brought up what the Jews have taught but I know better than to throw everything they teach in this day out because they are heretics. Instead I search through it for the kernels of truth and discard the chaff.
Kerwin.There is no truth in them,
for they are against the Son of God.
They have their own Messiah; and waiting for
HIM to come, and serve God in the new temple.
He will be the **False prophet** mentioned in revelation.
Beware of the wolf in sheeps clothing.wakeup.
Wakeup,Jesus Christ is among the Jews. In condemning them you condemn him. So I am going to assume you are speaking of the non-Christian traditions of Judaism because if you claim to be a Christian that does not follow the Jewish religion then are a liar for the prophets of old followed the Jewish religion. As for the heretics, whatever they choose to call themselves, there teaching fall short of the glory of God. That is another way of saying there is no truth in them even though they contain kernels of truth.
Kerwin.When I'm speaking of the jews I am not speaking of the true prophets of God and of Jesus Christ.
He was a jew in the flesh only. Christians are jews in the spirit. You are trying very hard to discredit me.All true christians are called jews spiritually.
Revelation 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan,
**which say they are Jews**, **and are not**,
**but do lie**;
behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.You have lots to learn.
wakeup.
Quote (tigger2 @ Nov. 25 2013,17:01) the plagiarist
Tigger2.What have you got to contribute?
But fancy colourful words with no scriptural benefit.
You are lame scripturally in defending your doctrine.
The mason doctrine;and I can proof it to you.
But I know that your eyes have been shut close
by your oppressors.
A prisoner that dont know he/she is in prison.
That's what they are: in bondage,thinking they are free.wakeup.
Quote As if you care? Journey,
Plagiarism is a pet peeve of mine and others. It is deceitful, and is never done out of ignorance but is deliberate. It is stealing anothers hard work and ideas, and passing it off as if ones own.
As a moderator of forums, it comes naturally for me to say something, and it has taken me a while.
I have said the same thing to another member here.
To those who do not know: If you quote another persons writing or ideas, always first state that you are quoting another persons writing. Give their name (if known) or state 'original author unknown', with a link to the original source, if possible.
Place the quoted writing in between quotation marks, or write the words 'quote' at the beginning of the quote, and 'unquote' at the end of the quote, or place the quote within a quotation box.
Never alter the wording of a quote, or quote another out of context, or add or remove words, so as to change the authors intended meaning.
And also, if you find a good idea, do not steal anothers idea, as if it were your own, but give the credit where it is due.Quote (journey42 @ Nov. 24 2013,19:42) Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Why would Jesus not have said this? Because the jot is a Hebrew letter, and the tittle is a small mark to distinguish between Hebrew letters. If Jesus used the Greek Septuagint, His scriptures would not have contained the jot and tittle. He obviously used the Hebrew scriptures!
Hi journey,I hope the visit with your guests went well.
I know there is some talk about Matthew being written in Hebrew originally, and then translated into Greek. I believe Eusebius is the one who wrote that he had actually seen the original Hebrew text with his own eyes in Alexandria. But there is no remaining proof of that Hebrew text of Matthew. The only remaining ones are in the Greek language.
So I'm not sure where your source got this “jot” and “tittle” thing, because the Greek words Matthew used in 5:18 were “iota” and “serif”.
From NETNotes:
Greek “Not one iota or one serif.”The smallest letter refers to the smallest Hebrew letter (yod), and the stroke of a letter to a serif (a hook or projection on a Hebrew letter).
But none of that really matters anyway, because no one is claiming that the HEBREW version of the scriptures didn't exist in Jesus' day, right? In fact, Jesus and the NT writers often quoted directly from the HEBREW OT – proving that they had access to it, and familiarity with it.
But that “jot” and “tittle” statement does nothing in the way of disproving that the LXX existed in the time of Jesus. Nor would Jesus using the Hebrew equivalents of “jot” and “tittle” in a statement disqualify the LXX from being a legit Greek translation of the OT.
Unless you assume that the absence of “jots” and “tittles” in the KJV disqualifies it from being a legit English translation of the OT.
Do you?
So we can assume from your info that Jesus used the HEBREW version of the OT. But nobody has claimed that he didn't.
My next post will address the fact that he ALSO used the Greek translation of the Hebrew OT.
Quote (journey42 @ Nov. 24 2013,20:56) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 20 2013,10:47) Quote Have you no comments about the fact that Jesus quoted the LXX version of Isaiah 61:1-2 in Luke 4:18-19? Mike, I have no idea what you are talking about. Let's look at those verses.
KJV
Isaiah 61:1 The spirit of the LORD GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the broken-hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are are bound.Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the LORD is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the broken-hearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
Notice the supersized words in Luke 4:18, journey.Those words are not in the oldest known Hebrew versions of Isaiah 61:1.
But look at the LXX version of Isaiah 61:1………
The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me; he has sent me to preach glad tidings to the poor, to heal the broken in heart, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and recovery of sight to the blind;
So since the Hebrew version doesn't say anything about the recovery of sight to the blind, but the LXX version has what Jesus said word for word – which version was Jesus most likely quoting in Luke 4:18? This is just one of many instances in the NT where Jesus or the disciples quoted the Greek version instead of the Hebrew version.
Quote (journey42 @ Nov. 24 2013,20:56) NOW LETS LOOK AT YOUR BIBLE VERSION?
I use many versions. And although I've read the NWT cover to cover and thought they did a wonderful job of translating, I'm not a JW. So why would you call the NWT “my Bible version”?
On this site, I quote the NIV more often than any other version.journey, the oldest known fragment of the LXX is Greek Papyrus 458. It’s dated to the 2nd century BCE, and contains portions of Deuteronomy 23-28.
So here's where we are:
1. It is strongly believed that Jesus was quoting the LXX version of Isaiah in Luke 4:18 – since the words about the blind recovering sight ARE in Luke, and ARE in the LXX – but AREN'T in the Hebrew MT.
2. The oldest and best Greek mss do NOT have “heal the broken hearted” in them. So it is thought that a later scribe, knowing that Jesus was quoting Isaiah 61, and knowing that the words “heal the broken hearted” are in Isaiah 61, ADDED those words into Luke 4:18 in an effort to “help” Jesus quote Isaiah more accurately.
We know that the “broken hearted” part IS in some Greek mss, but is ABSENT from many others. So we have to take a GUESS as to whether a scribe purposely ADDED those words, or a scribe purposely OMITTED those words.
For example, if the original DIDN'T have the part about the broken hearted, it would be EASY to see a later scribe ADDING those words in, so it aligned better with Isaiah 61.
But if the original DID have those words, it would be HARD to imagine why any scribe would purposely OMIT those words when making a copy of that verse.
Do you follow? Since some mss have those words, and others do not, then they were either added to the mss that have them, or omitted from the mss that don't have them. And it's far easier for me to believe a scribe would ADD them than it is to believe a scribe would purposely OMIT them.
So the KJV is not necessarily in error on that part, since the words are clearly in Isaiah 61, right? So even if the original Greek text DIDN'T have those words, the KJV is doing no harm by having them in its version of Luke 4:18.
But the newer translations have come to the same conclusion I did, which is: It is far more likely that a scribe ADDED the words in an effort to align Luke with Isaiah than it is that a scribe just ERASED that part of Jesus' words for no apparent reason. And it is for this reason that most of the more recent English Bibles don't have the part about the broken hearted. They are basing their translations on what they consider to be the oldest and best mss – the ones with the shorter reading.
So that should answer the first scripture brought up in the seven part video. If you understand what I wrote about this “broken hearted” thing, let me know, and I'll move on to the next verse mentioned in the video.
Quote (Wakeup @ Nov. 22 2013,02:47) Just some straight answers please:
1.Who created darkness/night?
Jehovah created both darkness/night.Is darkness/night “evil” for some reason? YES or NO?
journey,
Are you aware that parts of the KJV OT are translated from the LXX (Greek) instead of the MT (Hebrew)?
Quote (2besee @ Nov. 26 2013,06:32) Quote As if you care? Journey,
Plagiarism is a pet peeve of mine and others. It is deceitful, and is never done out of ignorance but is deliberate. It is stealing anothers hard work and ideas, and passing it off as if ones own.
As a moderator of forums, it comes naturally for me to say something, and it has taken me a while.
I have said the same thing to another member here.
To those who do not know: If you quote another persons writing or ideas, always first state that you are quoting another persons writing. Give their name (if known) or state 'original author unknown', with a link to the original source, if possible.
Place the quoted writing in between quotation marks, or write the words 'quote' at the beginning of the quote, and 'unquote' at the end of the quote, or place the quote within a quotation box.
Never alter the wording of a quote, or quote another out of context, or add or remove words, so as to change the authors intended meaning.
And also, if you find a good idea, do not steal anothers idea, as if it were your own, but give the credit where it is due.
Ok, 2Besse, I will do that.That's fine, but I remember I've seen you do it yourself, and many others that quote so called “facts” word for word without references.
What about the information I gave? Did you check it out?
Does it make sense to you? Or are you just worried about being politically correct?
Many sources claim the KJV was translated from the Greek Septuagint and that the apostles and Christ quoted from it. I checked a lot of sources and after sifting through hundreds, found that there is a big question mark there? Many sources claim the KJV was translated from the Ben Chayyim Texts. Do you want all those references? I could be here all day.Seems like I have wasted my time anyway, because no matter what I say or quote with whose name on it, you guys are refusing to really see what's going on and prefer to listen to those that drag the KJV through the mud.
Quote (journey42 @ Nov. 25 2013,16:43) Seems like I have wasted my time anyway, because no matter what I say or quote with whose name on it, you guys are refusing to really see what's going on and prefer to listen to those that drag the KJV through the mud.
I don't think any of us started this by saying the KJV sucks – or “slinging it through the mud”.We were called into action by YOUR claims that the KJV was “perfect” – or whatever.
We are just showing you that the KJV, like all English translations, has flaws.
Kerwin,
Could you re-post your information that showed a few verses where the KJV used the LXX instead of the MT? I can't seem to find that post.
mikeboll64,Nov. wrote:[/quote]
Quote journey42,Nov. wrote:Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Why would Jesus not have said this? Because the jot is a Hebrew letter, and the tittle is a small mark to distinguish between Hebrew letters. If Jesus used the Greek Septuagint, His scriptures would not have contained the jot and tittle. He obviously used the Hebrew scriptures!
Quote Hi journey, I hope the visit with your guests went well.
Hi Mike,Thank you, all went well.
Look I have to go out now, so will get back to replying this post later.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 26 2013,08:46) Quote (Wakeup @ Nov. 22 2013,02:47) Just some straight answers please:
1.Who created darkness/night?
Jehovah created both darkness/night.
]IS night “evil” for some reason? YES or NO?[/b]
Mike B.Quote ]IS night “evil” for some reason? YES or NO? John 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
John 1:4 In him was life; and **the life was the light** of men.
LIFE=LIGHT (SPIRITUALLY)
John 1:5 And the light shineth **in darkness**; and the darkness comprehended it not.
DARKNESS IN IT SELF IS NOT EVIL,BUT DARKNESS SPIRITUALLY IS EVIL.
GOD *CREATED BOTH* LIGHT AND DARKNESS;TWO OPPOSITES. JUST AS GOOD AND EVIL.(TWO OPPOSITES).WHO ARE IN DARKNESS,WAS IT NOT THE EVIL SCRIBES AND THEIR FOLLOWERS THAT KILLED JESUS?
wakeup.
Quote That's fine, but I remember I've seen you do it yourself, and many others that quote so called “facts” word for word without references. Journey, I would not have done that!
I am always careful, when it comes to quoting.
To the topic, I have nothing to say. God's truth is God's truth, and his truth is not only found in scripture, but all around.
I just read here now and again.
There is more important things to worry about, Journey.
Time is ticking away.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
