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Constitutionalist said:
Quote Now when Jesus was born [gennaō] in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem, Matthew 2:1 Gennaō: To be born, be born, be delivered, begat, to be begotten, of women giving birth to children. Variation of Genos: Born, kindred, offspring, stock, tribe, nation.
TO ALL:
Constitutionalist in his statement above reveals his lack of knowledge of the Greek. He thinks that the word “gennao” always has reference to simple origin and must therefore rule out the possibility of preexistence of any kind. Thus he concludes that Christ could not have preexisted His human birth.
By Con's logic all those who were “gennao” of God could not have preexisted. So when Con became born of God he began to exist.
Paul said that Isaac was “gennao” according to the Spirit. I guess this must mean that Isaac did not preexist his spiritual origin. We must conclude this because Con redacts “gennao” to simple origin in meaning. The fact is however, those who are “gennao” according to the Spirit do not begin at that time to exist. They undergo a change in their mode of existence. When Jesus was “gennao” according to the seed of David He simply underwent a change in His mode of existence.
Please note that Con has been asked to produce his Greek credentials and he remains evasive about it. It has been sufficiently shown that Con is actually a novice who does not know what he is talking about. He is not aware of the difference between Greek vocabulary and Greek exegesis.
King David called the Messiah “my Lord” which necessarily infers that David KNEW Him. This in turn infers that Jesus was preexistent. It is not too late for Con to enroll in some courses in Logic and in Greek.
thinker
Ad Homien,
Try putting up my whole statement, before you ad hoc and toss implications around that I may or may not have said.
Your even misquoting my logic.
To the cornfield with you.
Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 10 2009,05:47) Ad Homien, Try putting up my whole statement, before you ad hoc and toss implications around that I may or may not have said.
Your even misquoting my logic.
To the cornfield with you.
Please answer David's calling Messiah “my Lord.” And if I have misunderstood your logic regarding “gennao” then please clarify. You seem to be saying that “gennao” in reference to Christ refers to His total beginning. But “gennao” may also refer to a change in one's mode of existence.thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 10 2009,05:54) Hi TT,
Is not your crowing unseemly when you do not even know WHO God is?
Yakkety yak. Anyone who is a trinitarian does not know God. Yakkety yak.thinker
Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 09 2009,13:47) Ad Homien, Try putting up my whole statement, before you ad hoc and toss implications around that I may or may not have said.
Your even misquoting my logic.
To the cornfield with you.
Well then!Where is your defense?
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 09 2009,12:03) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 09 2009,13:47) Ad Homien, Try putting up my whole statement, before you ad hoc and toss implications around that I may or may not have said.
Your even misquoting my logic.
To the cornfield with you.
Well then!Where is your defense?
WJ
Wj, I do not need to defend half statements, and purposeful misquotes, everyone here see's what he is doing, you wish to see my reply's go back to the other thread, end of discussion.Also if TT was in fact a Master in Greek, he would not be Trinitarian. End of that discussion as well.
CT………..Thinker likes to try to play head trps on people by claiming to be a Greek scholar of some kind, but to Me it is simple, we Just have to believe what Jesus said ” FOR THOU ART THE (ONLY) TRUE GOD”. that is good enough for me and not to mention GOD the FATHER said “YOU SHALL HAVE (NO) OTHER GOD'S BESIDES ME”. If they can't believe those (SIMPLE) straight forward scriptures then what hope is there for them. All their gandy dancing has never overcome those word to me and other here as well.
peace and love to you and yours……………………….gene
Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 10 2009,04:41) [/quote]
Constitutionalist said:Quote Now when Jesus was born [gennao] in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem, Matthew 2:1 Gennao: To be born, be born, be delivered, begat, to be begotten, of women giving birth to children. Variation of Genos: Born, kindred, offspring, stock, tribe, nation.
TO ALL:
Constitutionalist in his statement above reveals his lack of knowledge of the Greek. He thinks that the word “gennao” always has reference to simple origin and must therefore rule out the possibility of preexistence of any kind. Thus he concludes that Christ could not have preexisted His human birth.By Con's logic all those who were “gennao” of God could not have preexisted. So when Con became born of God he began to exist.
Paul said that Isaac was “gennao” according to the Spirit. I guess this must mean that Isaac did not preexist his spiritual origin. We must conclude this because Con redacts “gennao” to simple origin in meaning. The fact is however, those who are “gennao” according to the Spirit do not begin at that time to exist. They undergo a change in their mode of existence. When Jesus was “gennao” according to the seed of David He simply underwent a change in His mode of existence.
WRONG!
“Gennao” MEANS “to cause to be.” When one is “gennao” of the Spirit, that is not the “beginning of the person” it is the response to “Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be gennao again.” [John 3:7] When we die to sin, we must be born again unto God.David was a prophet and spoke of the resurrected Jesus, who was made David's Lord AFTER his resurrection.
THE PROPHECY:
“I have set the LORD always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved. 9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope. 10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.” [Psa 16:8-11]THE APPLICATION:
“For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: 26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: 27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.” [Acts 2:25-28]THE PROPHECY:
“The LORD hath sworn in truth unto David; he will not turn from it; Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne.” [Psa 132:11]THE APPLICATION:
“Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.” [Acts 2:29-31]THE PROPHECY:
Psalm 110:1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.THE APPLICATION:
“This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.” [Acts 2:32-36]THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THIS:
WE LIVE UNTO GOD:
“I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” [Mat 22:32]“He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.” [Mark 12:27]
“For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.”[Luke 12:38]
“For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.” [Gal 2:19]
WE DIE UNTO THE LORD:
“For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.” [Rom 14:8]“For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.” [Rom 14:9]
THIS IS WHY Jesus was “made both Lord and Christ AFTER HIS RESURRECTION. He had been Lord and Christ during his mission in life, but both offices end with the recipient's death. All priests, all kings, all of God's “anointed” are only anointed for life. Jesus was the ONLY anointed of God to be anointed after his own death. THAT qualifies him to be Lord of the dead, theough the Father is NOT God of the dead. THIS ALONE should be enough to show he is not God.
Quote Please note that Con has been asked to produce his Greek credentials and he remains evasive about it. It has been sufficiently shown that Con is actually a novice who does not know what he is talking about. He is not aware of the difference between Greek vocabulary and Greek exegesis. I also do not display my “Greek credentials” and have no intention of getting into a petty squabble about “my credentials are bigger than your credentials” or any other type of silliness. If you can refute my argument, feel free, but do not pretend that “credentials” command the argument. They do NOT.
And you do not at least display the difference between exegesis and eisegesis. You are reading into David's prophecies, doctrine instead of knowledge.
Quote King David called the Messiah “my Lord” which necessarily infers that David KNEW Him. This in turn infers that Jesus was preexistent. It is not too late for Con to enroll in some courses in Logic and in Greek. Covered above. No such “pre-existence” inference involved. It was PROPHECY. Applied BY SCRIPTURE to the events recorded in Acts 2.
thethinker said:
Quote When Jesus was “gennao” according to the seed of David He simply underwent a change in His mode of existence. Paladin replied:
Quote WRONG!
“Gennao” MEANS “to cause to be.” When one is “gennao” of the Spirit, that is not the “beginning of the person” it is the response to “Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be gennao again.” [John 3:7] When we die to sin, we must be born again unto God.
Paladin,
It has already been shown that you are a novice in the Greek in that you have repeatedly denied that the Greek has a past tense verb. So I am surprised that you would come back for another beating.Those who are “born” (gennao) of God existed before they became born of God. They began a new life and entered into a new relationship with God. Hebrews 1 says that Christ was “gennao” at His exaltation. Did Jesus begin to exist when He was exalted? Or did He enter into a new relationship with God? It is obvious that “gennao” means “to cause to be [by change].” All humans exist before they are born (gennao). They really existed in the loins of their ancestors. When humans are born they undergo a change from unconscious existence to conscious existence. Jesus was unique because the change (gennao) He underwent was not from unconscious to conscious existence. He always had conscious existence. “Before Abraham was I AM.”
Therefore, Christ's being “gennao” of the seed of David has reference to a beginning or a change in His previous mode of existence.
Paladin said:
Quote David was a prophet and spoke of the resurrected Jesus, who was made David's Lord AFTER his resurrection. WRONG!! David prophesied that His Lord would be exalted to God's right hand. He did NOT say that Christ became his Lord then. Christ spoke through David prophesying His own coming into the world (Psalm 40: 5-8). Hebrews 10 makes it clear that it was Christ who prophesied this. Therefore, He had conscious existence prior to His becoming of the seed of David.
You are full of nonsense because you deny preexistence to Christ even when all other humans preexisted. And you deny that His preexistence was conscious when He clearly used David's mouth to prophesy His own coming.
You seem to be a glutton for punishment.
thinker
Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 09 2009,19:33) Also if TT was in fact a Master in Greek, he would not be Trinitarian. End of that discussion as well.
ConJust as I said, you have no answer to him!
Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 09 2009,19:33) Also if TT was in fact a Master in Greek, he would not be Trinitarian. End of that discussion as well. ROTFL, the world reknown Greek Grammarian AT Robertson is a Trinitarian.
As well as many other thousands of Greek and Hebrew scholars who are Trinitarians because they understand the Greek and Hebrew.
It seems that the Trinitarians around here are about the only ones that speak of the Greek and the original text, while the Arians just spat off their twisted interpretations of the translations!
End of that discussion!
WJ
Hi WJ,
So the more educated men become somehow the more deceived as well.
Give me the uneducated fishermen from Israel any old day.
God's power shows up best in weak vessels.WorshippingJesus said:
Quote It seems that the Trinitarians around here are about the only ones that speak of the Greek and the original text, while the Arians just spat off their twisted interpretations of the translations! All the Arians around here have proved is that they know how to read a Greek lexicon. Greek exegesis is another matter altogether. Constitutionalist and Paladin are the two novices here that try to pass themselves off as educated in the Greek. Paladin even denies that the Greek language has a past tense verb.
Once he tried to invoke Robertson to support him.thinker
Constitutionalist said:
Quote Also if TT was in fact a Master in Greek, he would not be Trinitarian. End of that discussion as well. Refute me then.
thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 02 2009,04:43) Hi WJ,
So the more educated men become somehow the more deceived as well.
Give me the uneducated fishermen from Israel any old day.
God's power shows up best in weak vessels.
Nick,
You fool no one. You take “educated” men so long as they support your views.thinker
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